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Turner, I'm Calling You Out.

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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5983 - Karma: 3,600
Turner, I’m calling you out. You wrote a story about UBC Ski and Board heading to Kicking Horse last week and it almost all sounded pretty damn awesome. Shredding: Havin’ a time. Partying: Havin’ a time. Fucking with the Riverhouse: Not so much a time.

Now I could tell you that you lived up to the douchebag reputation of a bunch of frat boys on a ski bus but I’m guessing you aren’t through and through a piece. You just had a rambunctious night and don’t know how to express yourself. It doesn’t define you and I’m sure you will grow out of it. But to write an article bragging about it bewilders me. People can call me out on tons of stuff too. But this is your chance to learn.

To get you all up to date, here is his article ( https://www.newschoolers.com/news/read/UBC-Ski-Board-Kicking-Horse ). It’s a good time story of a bunch of college kids travelling across the province to do what they love, ski, and that they did. Like any self respecting ski bum, they also partied. Sounds like a good time to me. Then there was this :

“We had been at the Riverhouse tavern in Golden. The kind of place that plays heavy metal, has skateboarding paraphernalia on the walls and Pabst on tap. Someone tried to strap into the snowboard bindings tacked up on the ceiling. They ripped out the first one, and the second. Things were looking up for the third when the bouncer appeared and made it very clear that it was time to come down. “


The thing is, The Riverhouse is our local watering hole. As you so well described, it is chill and has a sweet vibe. It is also owned by a really good dude. We call him Soap. When I organized a movie premiere and rail jam at the ski hill, he didn’t hesitate to pay for all the buses up and down to the hill, and wanted no advertising. When we held moustache competitions for fundraisers for cancer, he had no problem matching the donations. When Golden started talking about a new skate park, he offered money and to plan it. He has never charged cover for any band that plays at the Riv because he believes that no one should have to pay to come have a drink with the boys. If you need anything done, he’s there, no question, nothing in return. Just respect. This is the same dude who owns the vintage collector snowboards screwed to the wall that you guys ripped down and bragged about.

Ah, it’s just drunk partying. Yeah sure. Don’t behave, be inappropriate, crawl through the water fountain and pass out in a bush. We all do it. Sometimes we fuck up too. We take something too far. Chances are we break some meaningless thing owned by some faceless corporation. But you don’t know. Sometimes you fuck up a good dudes thing. That’s why you learn from this shit. Learn respect because you never know what’s what and where you are going. Take this as a chance to grow. And most of all, please don’t brag about it on the internet.

I’m not mad. I’m just disappointed. Why are we celebrating this type of thing?

TL;DR: Don't be a douche. Live your life with respect or you might put your foot in your mouth.
Jan 17 2016 2:30PM
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John18_6
Posts: 7313 - Karma: 49,165
College Ski Clubs can be the greatest and worst things on the planet simultaneously.
Jan 17 2016 2:43PM
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.otto.
Posts: 3494 - Karma: 12,899
yo they just havin fun

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/02/28/treetops-damage-estimate-rises/24194631/

but then again a group of skiers from U of M destroyed a hotel for 400,000 dollars worth of damages
Jan 17 2016 2:57PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
.otto.yo they just havin fun

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/02/28/treetops-damage-estimate-rises/24194631/

but then again a group of skiers from U of M destroyed a hotel for 400,000 dollars worth of damages


No, theyre being fucking assholes. You dont go into the local bar and start destroying it, and then even worse, start bragging about it as much ass possible.

that is a shit representation of skiing. Its a great representation of spoiled, sheltered rich kids... which they are.



Hey Bishop: If i, along with my rich buddies cause go to your a cool local dive property damage and destroy memoribilia with nostaligic value, and then write a sweet piece about how i party hard, can i publish an article on here? Or do i have to know you to not be considered an unmitigated douchebag?
Jan 17 2016 3:04PM
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SBCSkier
Posts: 96 - Karma: 1,852
A little misdirected, don't you think? He's a journalist reporting on what went down -- and if you knew Sam you'd know he would be the last person to instigate that kind of behaviour.
Jan 17 2016 3:04PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
hemlockjibber8We take something too far. Chances are we break some meaningless thing owned by some faceless corporation.


I don't really think that the logic of destruction of property is excused by this silly idea of the 'faceless corporation'. There is some dude at that corporation that had to deal with it. maybe missed a family event cleaning up after you.

Mayhem happens, and sometimes there's consequences. I once broke a window at our accommodation that Loon Mountain had granted us in the throws of a big party. I apologized the next morning and paid for what I had done. I felt bad, and try really hard to not break more windows if we're getting reckless.

Sam was reporting on this event. He didn't organize it. He was telling the story of what went down, and I applaud him for doing so. I find it interesting to get a view into what skiers are doing, no matter what walk of life they come from.

Do you know that the incident wasn't treated with respect and reparation? I'm genuinely curious - because if your reaction comes just from you reading the article, we need more color in the story. If said binding strap-in-er person punched the bouncer and said "Fuck you townie" and bolted... well that is certainly a dick move. If they owned up to their actions, apologized profusely for being an idiot an paid reparations... well that is another.

As well before passing judgement, we'd need more info on what was destroyed. If it was a vintage board that was not replaceable, then the perpetrator should be vilified. If it was just a budwiser promo board, and the owner knows that things get broken as part of being the party place... well that is another.

I know that when we do parties at events, I have planned for a certain amount of breakage. You can't be the place that invites/supports drunken buffoonery (and profits off it) and not have some preparation for damage to be done.

So first off, I'd say we shouldn't be attacking Sam, and second off we need more information before passing judgement on the Ski/Snowboard club who ran this event.
Jan 17 2016 3:08PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5983 - Karma: 3,600
SBCSkierA little misdirected, don't you think? He's a journalist reporting on what went down -- and if you knew Sam you'd know he would be the last person to instigate that kind of behaviour.



First and foremost, I am not calling Sam a bad person. Odds are I would probably like him in person and I am sure I will run into him in the future. I even checked with Bishop if this sounded to angry because the point wasn't to call him a douchebag. It was to point out that this behaviour isn't cool. Like I said, we have all done shit. The question is do we learn or do we celebrate it. Granted, he did not rip the boards down but he did celebrate it by writing of it in this way. Much like Bishop celebrated it by saying that shit was awesome. What people were left with is the message that this is awesome. Sam was the messenger and he is getting some heat for it. Mainly, as I said, because he celebrated it after the fact.

I was going to go into the fact that the bouncers or locals might just have kicked the perps asses and if they learned their lessons that's cool. Shit happens and consequences happen. That doesn't change the fact that this article made it out to be cool. I guess you could say my thread is a consequence of his article, more than the the offence.

Sam was not a hired journalist innocently reporting on things, be real. But I'm not here to roast Sam as a person. I'm just saying let's be more cognizant of others and realize how the world is connected. Namaste bitches.
Jan 17 2016 3:32PM
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Turner.
Posts: 1989 - Karma: 11,892
californiagrownas much ass possible.


lol.

@hemlockjibber Word dude. I saw your comment on the article when you first read it, something like "nice article but don't fuck with Soap or the Riv" and, as you say in the OP here, it put a face to the "faceless corporation." Made me consider an otherwise random anecdote in a new light.

So here's my take: when I go in on a story like this, I am not bragging. I see a lot of people calling out some of the more informal stories I write as me bragging, and I disagree with that. I write what I see and I try and tell it to you exactly as I would if we were swapping stories face to face. The idea is that it's loose, but I'm telling it back to you exactly as I saw it go down. The object of that story was to look inside a university ski trip and see what the hell is going on. If you think I'm bragging then you're reading me wrong.

The anecdote about the snowboard bindings is me reporting to you exactly what I saw. I'm not encouraging it and I'm not discouraging it. It's the kind of thing you might suddenly come back to the morning after a party, like "oh yeah fuck, remember when Tommy tried to climb out the window" - except I'm seeing it go down, and I'm recording it. I'm not saying it was dope, it just was. As a "journalist" I think that's my job.

Now, the lesson I take from this is that in certain situations, I might have a journalistic responsibility to follow up on things. Ask the bar owners how they felt, ask the kids hanging from the ceiling if they had apologized, or simply include that hey, fucking with a local spot isn't really chill. But I'm not going to scale back the things I report because somebody finds them disagreeable. Shit happens, that's the whole point.

Anyway, I appreciate the callout. I'm not gonna back down but I'm happy to engage in these kinds of discussions.
Jan 17 2016 3:38PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
Turner.I'm not encouraging it and I'm not discouraging it. It's the kind of thing you might suddenly come back to the morning after a party, like "oh yeah fuck, remember when Tommy tried to climb out the window" - except I'm seeing it go down, and I'm recording it. I'm not saying it was dope, it just was. As a "journalist" I think that's my job.


Great, and it reflects on YOU what those chuckleheads did because you were there and from the sounds of it thought it was pretty funny and a highlight of the night(otherwise why mention it). If you reported that your buddies drunkingly tore down an old lady's fence in the same light, laughing way as you wrote that anecdote id think you were an idiot as well.

Why would you allow your buddies to go into a place and start destroying things for the fun of it? Are you weak and timid, or did you think it was funny and harmless?
Jan 17 2016 4:05PM
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Jaymon
Posts: 860 - Karma: 1,213
Sam is a really rad dude. He would be the last person to promote fucking shit up.

Shit happens, especially with drunk ski teams. It sounds like a really sweet pub and I'm sure worse things have happened there than a bunch of UBC kids getting a bouncer upset after messing with the decorations. If that is the worst thing that has ever happened there it's a sign Golden's nightlife needs to get a little more exciting. I know the Revelstoke pubs all wear their scars with pride as they were all earned from one hilarious story or another. No the owners weren't happy when someone tried to steal skis off the wall or whatever else, but in the end that just contributes to the places character.

We shouldn't promote drunk destruction, but we also shouldn't condemn Turner for being a good journalist on the wrong side of the story. He writes for your entertainment, not to tell skiers to settle down.
Jan 17 2016 4:08PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
californiagrownGreat, and it reflects on YOU what those chuckleheads did because you were there and from the sounds of it thought it was pretty funny and a highlight of the night(otherwise why mention it). If you reported that your buddies drunkingly tore down an old lady's fence in the same light, laughing way as you wrote that anecdote id think you were an idiot as well.

Why would you allow your buddies to go into a place and start destroying things for the fun of it? Are you weak and timid, or did you think it was funny and harmless?


You're seriously missing the point of what it means to be a Journalist.

Remember - Sam is literally a Journalist both by education and by employment here at Newschoolers. The job of a writer is to report the events as they see it, and then tell the world the truth of what happened. The world then knew what went down, and posses the story to make judgement off of.

To silence a Journalist, or to tell them that they should leave out certain facts is completely against what you want them there for. They also aren't there to interfere - just to tell the story.

As a matter of fact, those who are upset at this situation should be extremely happy that you know what went down. You can now educate people or reach out to the ski/snowboard club with your gripes. Whether or not Turner was there this would have gone down the same way, and you should be thanking him for not leaving out the details which would have kept the story typically politically correct BS that skiing usually puts out.

Do not vilify the Media for what they cover - because they bring you the truth.
Jan 17 2016 4:31PM
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SBCSkier
Posts: 96 - Karma: 1,852
hemlockjibber8First and foremost, I am not calling Sam a bad person. Odds are I would probably like him in person and I am sure I will run into him in the future. I even checked with Bishop if this sounded to angry because the point wasn't to call him a douchebag. It was to point out that this behaviour isn't cool. Like I said, we have all done shit. The question is do we learn or do we celebrate it. Granted, he did not rip the boards down but he did celebrate it by writing of it in this way. Much like Bishop celebrated it by saying that shit was awesome. What people were left with is the message that this is awesome. Sam was the messenger and he is getting some heat for it. Mainly, as I said, because he celebrated it after the fact.

I was going to go into the fact that the bouncers or locals might just have kicked the perps asses and if they learned their lessons that's cool. Shit happens and consequences happen. That doesn't change the fact that this article made it out to be cool. I guess you could say my thread is a consequence of his article, more than the the offence.

Sam was not a hired journalist innocently reporting on things, be real. But I'm not here to roast Sam as a person. I'm just saying let's be more cognizant of others and realize how the world is connected. Namaste bitches.


We'll have to agree to disagree then, as we don't believe Sam's words or article could be considered "celebrating it". Doug or Sam can correct us if we're wrong, but I'm pretty sure he is exactly that -- a hired journalist. Many journalist, and definitely anyone on assignment for SBC, would be expected to do exactly what Sam did in his situation.

And honestly, why didn't you just shoot him a message instead? It probably would have been a lot simpler than commenting on every post and creating a news article / ski gabber thread calling him out. Sam's a very kind and smart dude -- he will definitely appreciate your feedback and thoughts.

Just our two cents! We say keep the gonzo journalism coming and rock on Mr. Bishop.
Jan 17 2016 4:33PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
SBCSkierJust our two cents! We say keep the gonzo journalism coming and rock on Mr. Bishop.


Fuck yeah man. For those of you who don't know what Gonzo is, read on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism

Also yes, can confirm Turner is a staff Journalist and our goal is to get him into situations to partake and tell the story. Let the readership decide if it was awesome or whack.
Jan 17 2016 4:50PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
Mr.BishopYou're seriously missing the point of what it means to be a Journalist.

Remember - Sam is literally a Journalist both by education and by employment here at Newschoolers. The job of a writer is to report the events as they see it, and then tell the world the truth of what happened. The world then knew what went down, and posses the story to make judgement off of.

To silence a Journalist, or to tell them that they should leave out certain facts is completely against what you want them there for. They also aren't there to interfere - just to tell the story.

As a matter of fact, those who are upset at this situation should be extremely happy that you know what went down. You can now educate people or reach out to the ski/snowboard club with your gripes. Whether or not Turner was there this would have gone down the same way, and you should be thanking him for not leaving out the details which would have kept the story typically politically correct BS that skiing usually puts out.

Do not vilify the Media for what they cover - because they bring you the truth.


Youre seriously missing the point.

Im not vilifying him for covering it. Im vilifying him for not stopping it, and im sure, condoning it and thinking it was hilarious while it happened.

Was he there on assignment for a story? or was he going to be there anyways skiing and partying with buddies so might as well blog about it?
Jan 17 2016 4:54PM
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.otto.
Posts: 3494 - Karma: 12,899
californiagrownNo, theyre being fucking assholes. You dont go into the local bar and start destroying it, and then even worse, start bragging about it as much ass possible.

that is a shit representation of skiing. Its a great representation of spoiled, sheltered rich kids... which they are.



Yo i was joking.. Im not into condoning stupid behavior
Jan 17 2016 4:59PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
californiagrownYoure seriously missing the point.

Im not vilifying him for covering it. Im vilifying him for not stopping it, and im sure, condoning it and thinking it was hilarious while it happened.

Was he there on assignment for a story? or was he going to be there anyways skiing and partying with buddies so might as well blog about it?


He was there on assignment covering it. He had relationships with the people, but Turner is on staff here and is out covering things like this. Newschoolers has a massive college-age demographic, so we're trying to take a look into that life and tell the story of what its like.

He is 100% not there to play dad, nor is this a Newschoolers event where our staff are supposed to take care of the people involved. He's there doing his job reporting on what went down.
Jan 17 2016 5:04PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
Mr.BishopHe was there on assignment covering it. He had relationships with the people, but Turner is on staff here and is out covering things like this. Newschoolers has a massive college-age demographic, so we're trying to take a look into that life and tell the story of what its like.

He is 100% not there to play dad, nor is this a Newschoolers event where our staff are supposed to take care of the people involved. He's there doing his job reporting on what went down.


THe article made it sound like he was part of the crew and was just writing about his trip, not documenting UBC ski club trip from the inside. There is a large ethical difference between the two.

My apologies to Turner if he was the latter.
Jan 17 2016 5:13PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
californiagrownTHe article made it sound like he was part of the crew and was just writing about his trip, not documenting UBC ski club trip from the inside. There is a large ethical difference between the two.

My apologies to Turner if he was the latter.


Please read the description of Gonzo Journalism. The point is that he joins the crew and partakes - but does so as a journalist reporting on the event.

Turner is not in university right now, and when he was he attended McGill in Montreal. He's from Vamcouver and obviously knows some of those guys but he is the Newschoolers Editor At Large for his main job and that is his focus.

So please as I mentioned in my first post in this thread - lets get the facts straight before spewing out uninformed hate.
Jan 17 2016 5:35PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
Mr.BishopPlease read the description of Gonzo Journalism. The point is that he joins the crew and partakes - but does so as a journalist reporting on the event.

Turner is not in university right now, and when he was he attended McGill in Montreal. He's from Vamcouver and obviously knows some of those guys but he is the Newschoolers Editor At Large for his main job and that is his focus.

So please as I mentioned in my first post in this thread - lets get the facts straight before spewing out uninformed hate.

You are again missing what i said. Gonzo journalism isnt when you hang out with your normal buddies and do your normal things and then write about it... which is how this article comes off to me.


you say we should get the facts straight before having an emotional response to the story? Maybe the story should have provided all relevant facts. this wasnt a news report. This was telling the story of the UBC ski clubs trip, and it painted it in a certain light that is up to the reader to hate, love or anything in between.
Jan 17 2016 5:49PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
californiagrownYou are again missing what i said. Gonzo journalism isnt when you hang out with your normal buddies and do your normal things and then write about it... which is how this article comes off to me.


you say we should get the facts straight before having an emotional response to the story? Maybe the story should have provided all relevant facts. this wasnt a news report. This was telling the story of the UBC ski clubs trip, and it painted it in a certain light that is up to the reader to hate, love or anything in between.


Agree and still think it's crazy to vilify the writer, no?

I mean if this whole thing was about hating on university to ski clubs and their infestatation and disrespect of local ski communities... Then fine. I really think it's Mis-directed to point that hate at Turner.
Jan 17 2016 5:55PM
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McNoche
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Fuck Turner
Jan 17 2016 5:59PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
Mr.BishopAgree and still think it's crazy to vilify the writer, no?

I mean if this whole thing was about hating on university to ski clubs and their infestatation and disrespect of local ski communities... Then fine. I really think it's Mis-directed to point that hate at Turner.


In the context of blogging about ones activities with friends (which is how i understood it, as well as the OP), no i think its completely justifiable.
Jan 17 2016 6:26PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5983 - Karma: 3,600
Doug, I feel like you are really wanting something with the news on this site and your passion is taking away from your rationale. I appreciate gonzo journalism. Like californiagrown said, "Gonzo journalism isnt when you hang out with your normal buddies and do your normal things and then write about it... which is how this article comes off to me."
Me too, because of this closer in the article "I do think you should join your school’s ski club though. Rolling headlong into a ski town with a whole bunch of your friends, bouncing off the walls, throwing up in a blanket and then skiing world class terrain is a really good idea, and it’s a really good way to spend a weekend early in the semester."

But maybe I am mistaken and for that I apologize. Upon reading it for the third time I can see that everything except that paragraph was written without objectivity. Once again, it was not meant to shit on Sam as much as the actions and the fact that I believed it was celebrated. Things are covered on NS if they aren't thought to be cool or a selling point. Yes, gonzo, blah blah blah... Once again I apologize for unclearly putting all the blame on Sam and straight up blaming you to make the point easier. In fact, since you were reporting Gonzo, you're off the hook. You seem intelligent and I bet your are good shit. Keep writing.

Who I am directly calling out for encouraging this fucking disrespectful behaviour is two industry professionals who obviously have a decent amount of influence on the readers of this material.

SBCSkier
"Can we come next time?"

Mr.Bishop
"Looks like a darn good time."

As I said before, we've all done dumb shit drunk. I'm not some crotchety old curmudgeon. But when you are sober, at work, encouraging people to do this and arguing in it's defence, THAT is where I have a problem.

The reason I did not respond to Sam in a message is because the message we are debating had been presented publicly and I believe it needed to be rescinded publicly. I have no personal issue with Sam himself.

As a side note, yes, we can blame the reporters for news. They chose what is important, they put their opinion on it (not in this case apparently) and they decide what fills the minds of the people. Plus, this is a ski site. Don't get philosophical on news and writing with me when I am trying to tell people not to celebrate jack asses.
Jan 17 2016 7:11PM
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jca
Posts: 4172 - Karma: 6,310
I'm digging this debate boys! Type on!
Jan 17 2016 9:21PM
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the.hellion.
Posts: 861 - Karma: 698
This thread is hilarious and so is the fact that anyone is trying to claim this article to be journalism, gonzo on otherwise. If the author had interviewed the owner of the bar the next day, after apologizing profusely, that would have been journalism. In fact, I am interested in how 'Soap' felt about the whole situation, maybe he would have been cool and realized that drunk shit happens and sometimes drunk people are dicks. The problem is that no one even cared to ask, or notably apologize.

Dunno, don't particularly care but I have a watering hole back home and I know I would be cheesed if someone came around and trashed the pool or pinball tables, and this pseudo-journalistic defense is just ridiculous.
Jan 17 2016 9:42PM
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Poikenz
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the.hellion.This thread is hilarious and so is the fact that anyone is trying to claim this article to be journalism, gonzo on otherwise.


That is exactly how I feel about every "article" posted on NS. I know that Bishop and the media team pat each other on the back for rejuvenating NS or whatever, but if you are being paid to write articles I would at least expect typos and grammar errors to be corrected before posting. I'd comment on the quality of writing, but I guess a good portion of this site doesn't want anything more than a biased article that hovers around a grade 8 writing level.
Jan 17 2016 10:07PM
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Turner.
Posts: 1989 - Karma: 11,892
the.hellion.If the author had interviewed the owner of the bar the next day, after apologizing profusely, that would have been journalism.


Hahaha, no it wouldn't. Next time you see a journalist apologize for the actions of a person they were reporting on, you let me know, okay?

Poikenzif you are being paid to write articles I would at least expect typos and grammar errors to be corrected before posting. I'd comment on the quality of writing, but I guess a good portion of this site doesn't want anything more than a biased article that hovers around a grade 8 writing level.


DO fucking comment on it, man! Why would you just sit on that? If you're going to take the time to read something, and you find you don't like it, then say something about it. That's how this shit improves.
Jan 17 2016 11:18PM
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cydwhit
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the.hellion.This thread is hilarious and so is the fact that anyone is trying to claim this article to be journalism, gonzo on otherwise. If the author had interviewed the owner of the bar the next day, after apologizing profusely, that would have been journalism. In fact, I am interested in how 'Soap' felt about the whole situation, maybe he would have been cool and realized that drunk shit happens and sometimes drunk people are dicks. The problem is that no one even cared to ask, or notably apologize.

Dunno, don't particularly care but I have a watering hole back home and I know I would be cheesed if someone came around and trashed the pool or pinball tables, and this pseudo-journalistic defense is just ridiculous.


Yeah.... I feel like there is a spectrum of gonzo journalism, and everyone has different levels that they find acceptable.

I guess a lot of my writing for NS would have been considered "Gonzo Journalism," but I would never expect it to offer me the same level of protection as traditional journalism.

As much as I love Bishop and Turner, I think I disagree with their argument. However, super good discussion here!
Jan 18 2016 12:07AM
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cydwhit
Posts: 5074 - Karma: 43,034
Turner.Hahaha, no it wouldn't. Next time you see a journalist apologize for the actions of a person they were reporting on, you let me know, okay?



DO fucking comment on it, man! Why would you just sit on that? If you're going to take the time to read something, and you find you don't like it, then say something about it. That's how this shit improves.

Dub posting because I feel like it.

I see where you are coming from here, but I disagree. I'm the same way, the product of a journalism program at my college, worked for the school newspaper, yada yada yada. And while I do love me some Hunter S. Thomson and the like, I've never been able to reconcile the Gonzo part of Gonzo journalism.

I don't think it's traditional "journalism." Is it good? Is it entertaining? Should it happen? YES TO ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

However, is it journalism? no.

Hell this is all I used to do for NS, and I loved it. It's my favorite type of writing, if I could make a living just doing that I would. However, there is a line between journalism and opinion pieces. Sam's piece, (and like 99.9% of everything I ever write) is opinion, not journalism. It's not trying to present the facts in a fair and unbiased way to inform the public. It's not protected like traditional journalism is, but on another level, it's not a liability like traditional journalism is. You can't sue for libel over an opinion piece. This kind of writing is held to a lower standard, because it's presented as the personal opinion of the author.

The bigger issue here is that most of ski writing is way more messed up than Sam's piece, way more canned, way more biased, way more disgusting.

So, while I agree, the article came across as douchey to me, I am 100% fine with Sam writing it and NS publishing it. I do not agree however that just because someone is "gonzo journalisting" a douchey activity that they are somehow kept clean and pure from it. You've got to have your own moral code, and you've got to stick to it.

To take it to an extreme example and escalate things way more than necessary, what would your response have been if this report was on say, a rape? That's something that I think we would all agree you can't just unbiasedly watch happen and report on, without being seen as condoning it.

So it really comes down to the author's (or "reporter" if we really want to act like this is "journalism") moral compass. What are they willing to watch go down without acting? What do they believe about the world and about right and wrong? Because that is what is going to show through in their writing.

Hopefully that doesn't come across as too strong, but I figured I'd voice my opinion as the weird conservative dude with way too many siblings.

Doug, I love you, and I can't thank you enough for everything you've done for me. The first beer is on me at SIA.

Turner, I've yet to meet you in person, but when we do I'd love to by a drink
Jan 18 2016 12:24AM
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hemlockjibber8
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^ I 100% agree. Another example I was thinking of is what if he Gonzo reported on his buddies stealing skis? How would we feel now?

I know that the point of Gonzo journalism is supposed to be unbiased and unobjective but that is virtually impossible. If you are told to only report on your group of friends, that is objective. If you only report on things that you noticed and took in as relevant or important, that is bias.

This was an objective and bias piece. It had a goal of documenting a crazy uni ski trip about young, male skiers and their interests that are similar to the writer's.
Jan 18 2016 6:01AM
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00000000
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I think some of you need to go smoke some weed and get your weekly quota of powder turns. That or eat a Snickers.

So what's the conclusion here? There's actually no such thing as real journalism? Do you guys even know what you're arguing about? What's the end goal here? Better news? Sam's head on a pike? The end of the journalist program? Unbiased non-skiers covering ski events? All this over a pretty whatever piece about a school ski trip (no offence Sam)...

Personally, I would much rather see guys like hemlockjibber and californiagrown contribute something worthwhile to this website for once. From the sounds of it both of them are super OG's with the utmost knowledge about life, skiing, and the internet. Instead of just shitting on people, why not try your luck at something constructive?

**This post was edited on Jan 18th 2016 at 6:49:12am
Jan 18 2016 6:48AM
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hemlockjibber8
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MousseauI think some of you need to go smoke some weed and get your weekly quota of powder turns. That or eat a Snickers.

So what's the conclusion here? There's actually no such thing as real journalism? Do you guys even know what you're arguing about? What's the end goal here? Better news? Sam's head on a pike? The end of the journalist program? Unbiased non-skiers covering ski events? All this over a pretty whatever piece about a school ski trip (no offence Sam)...

Personally, I would much rather see guys like hemlockjibber and californiagrown contribute something worthwhile to this website for once. From the sounds of it both of them are super OG's with the utmost knowledge about life, skiing, and the internet. Instead of just shitting on people, why not try your luck at something constructive?

**This post was edited on Jan 18th 2016 at 6:49:12am


SBC, how are you missing the point of this thread? Go about life with respect because sometimes when you think you are guilt free fucking up some faceless corp you are actually fucking with a really cool guy. That and why are a canadian mag and the president of this website positively reinforcing people to go into fellow ski towns watering holes owned by chill guys and fuck stuff up?
Jan 18 2016 7:09AM
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SBCSkier
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hemlockjibber8SBC, how are you missing the point of this thread? Go about life with respect because sometimes when you think you are guilt free fucking up some faceless corp you are actually fucking with a really cool guy. That and why are a canadian mag and the president of this website positively reinforcing people to go into fellow ski towns watering holes owned by chill guys and fuck stuff up?


If you think that is what everyone is doing in this thread then you're clearly beyond reason.
Jan 18 2016 7:16AM
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hemlockjibber8
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Please read my earlier post where I highlight your's and Doug's comments from Sam's original article. The only reason this thread has focussed on journalism is because people felt that gonzo journalism is an excuse for watching/partaking in and documenting (in my opinion celebrating) shitty behaviour. This lead to a good discussion if that is a free pass or not. I hesitantly agreed to Sam being innocent because he's a journalist but wanted to quell the idea of this shit being cool by focussing on the two of you and your encouragement of it (which there is no debate about).
Jan 18 2016 7:42AM
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00000000
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cydwhitDub posting because I feel like it.

I see where you are coming from here, but I disagree. I'm the same way, the product of a journalism program at my college, worked for the school newspaper, yada yada yada. And while I do love me some Hunter S. Thomson and the like, I've never been able to reconcile the Gonzo part of Gonzo journalism.

I don't think it's traditional "journalism." Is it good? Is it entertaining? Should it happen? YES TO ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

However, is it journalism? no.

Hell this is all I used to do for NS, and I loved it. It's my favorite type of writing, if I could make a living just doing that I would. However, there is a line between journalism and opinion pieces. Sam's piece, (and like 99.9% of everything I ever write) is opinion, not journalism. It's not trying to present the facts in a fair and unbiased way to inform the public. It's not protected like traditional journalism is, but on another level, it's not a liability like traditional journalism is. You can't sue for libel over an opinion piece. This kind of writing is held to a lower standard, because it's presented as the personal opinion of the author.

The bigger issue here is that most of ski writing is way more messed up than Sam's piece, way more canned, way more biased, way more disgusting.

So, while I agree, the article came across as douchey to me, I am 100% fine with Sam writing it and NS publishing it. I do not agree however that just because someone is "gonzo journalisting" a douchey activity that they are somehow kept clean and pure from it. You've got to have your own moral code, and you've got to stick to it.

To take it to an extreme example and escalate things way more than necessary, what would your response have been if this report was on say, a rape? That's something that I think we would all agree you can't just unbiasedly watch happen and report on, without being seen as condoning it.

So it really comes down to the author's (or "reporter" if we really want to act like this is "journalism") moral compass. What are they willing to watch go down without acting? What do they believe about the world and about right and wrong? Because that is what is going to show through in their writing.

Hopefully that doesn't come across as too strong, but I figured I'd voice my opinion as the weird conservative dude with way too many siblings.

Doug, I love you, and I can't thank you enough for everything you've done for me. The first beer is on me at SIA.

Turner, I've yet to meet you in person, but when we do I'd love to by a drink


A few thoughts.

- No, it's not traditional journalism. I wouldn't call it an opinion piece either. It's gonzo journalism. Personally I think gonzo journalism is a form of journalism, but I guess that's up for debate.
- What would have you done in Sam's situation? Leave the bar? Yell at the idiot trying to strap in? Physically stop him? Would have you let it happen and interview the owner, making the entire article about 30 seconds of stupidity? I'm genuinely curious as to how you would have handled it.
- Both of us know making that kind of comparison is a slippery slope. What do you think journalist embedded in war zones do when faced with those type of moral dilemmas?
Jan 18 2016 7:52AM
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hemlockjibber8
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personally, I probably would have put a hand on the guy, pulled him down, had a word about it if I was near by. In my younger, drunker days I would have probably laughed and not done anything. But most importantly, I wouldn't have written about it on the internet like it was something awesome during an entire weekend of awesomeness.

As to this slippery slope business, you fight the fights you can. If you are a reporter with a camera and a pen and you see someone stealing skis, you can do something. If you see someone getting raped, you can do something. If you are reporting on a war torn country and see a wounded child drowning in a puddle, you do something. If you are unarmed, surrounded by heavy artillery fire while trapped in a bunker, you hold your nuts and take notes if you can. It's all common sense. You don't have a right to be a ignorant or apathetic asshole because you are a gonzo reporter. It's not like if you intervene in the situation you alter the fabric of time.
Jan 18 2016 8:01AM
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00000000
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hemlockjibber8written about it on the internet like it was something awesome during an entire weekend of awesomeness.


I guess I just didn't interpret it that way but can understand how you might have.

And I mean, if he didn't write about it there probably wouldn't be this discussion. Personally, I really enjoy these kinds of threads and love that Newschoolers is probably the only media outlet that lets it happen. The fact that there isn't one editor filling the site with what they like means that there's bound to be shit that pisses people off. I really, really hope that never changes!
Jan 18 2016 8:31AM
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fortyvalve
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the.hellion.This thread is hilarious and so is the fact that anyone is trying to claim this article to be journalism, gonzo on otherwise. If the author had interviewed the owner of the bar the next day, after apologizing profusely, that would have been journalism. In fact, I am interested in how 'Soap' felt about the whole situation, maybe he would have been cool and realized that drunk shit happens and sometimes drunk people are dicks. The problem is that no one even cared to ask, or notably apologize.

Dunno, don't particularly care but I have a watering hole back home and I know I would be cheesed if someone came around and trashed the pool or pinball tables, and this pseudo-journalistic defense is just ridiculous.


Well said. I think another point for Doug to consider is at what point does "Gonzo Journalism" blur with destruction of property? He recounted him and his buddies breaking showcase items on display in an establishment. Again, please don't take this as a personal attack towards Turner. Rather, an insight on how to improve articles on here.
Jan 18 2016 8:33AM
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hemlockjibber8
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MousseauI guess I just didn't interpret it that way but can understand how you might have.

And I mean, if he didn't write about it there probably wouldn't be this discussion. Personally, I really enjoy these kinds of threads and love that Newschoolers is probably the only media outlet that lets it happen. The fact that there isn't one editor filling the site with what they like means that there's bound to be shit that pisses people off. I really, really hope that never changes!


If he didn't write about it and you and Doug didn't proclaim "Awesome!" then kids wouldn't read it and be immersed in a culture of accepting and promoting this shit, leading to it happening more. The large part of my issue was that it WAS written about.

There are ways to be 'edgy' and 'cool' while 'not giving a fuck' without being jack asses. Try being edgy by reporting on things that no one would have the balls to write about because they are worried about ad dollars or something.
Jan 18 2016 8:41AM
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casual
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hemlockjibber8Doug, I feel like you are really wanting something with the news on this site and your passion is taking away from your rationale. I appreciate gonzo journalism. Like californiagrown said, "Gonzo journalism isnt when you hang out with your normal buddies and do your normal things and then write about it... which is how this article comes off to me."
Me too, because of this closer in the article "I do think you should join your school’s ski club though. Rolling headlong into a ski town with a whole bunch of your friends, bouncing off the walls, throwing up in a blanket and then skiing world class terrain is a really good idea, and it’s a really good way to spend a weekend early in the semester."

But maybe I am mistaken and for that I apologize. Upon reading it for the third time I can see that everything except that paragraph was written without objectivity. Once again, it was not meant to shit on Sam as much as the actions and the fact that I believed it was celebrated. Things are covered on NS if they aren't thought to be cool or a selling point. Yes, gonzo, blah blah blah... Once again I apologize for unclearly putting all the blame on Sam and straight up blaming you to make the point easier. In fact, since you were reporting Gonzo, you're off the hook. You seem intelligent and I bet your are good shit. Keep writing.

Who I am directly calling out for encouraging this fucking disrespectful behaviour is two industry professionals who obviously have a decent amount of influence on the readers of this material.

SBCSkier
"Can we come next time?"

Mr.Bishop
"Looks like a darn good time."

As I said before, we've all done dumb shit drunk. I'm not some crotchety old curmudgeon. But when you are sober, at work, encouraging people to do this and arguing in it's defence, THAT is where I have a problem.

The reason I did not respond to Sam in a message is because the message we are debating had been presented publicly and I believe it needed to be rescinded publicly. I have no personal issue with Sam himself.

As a side note, yes, we can blame the reporters for news. They chose what is important, they put their opinion on it (not in this case apparently) and they decide what fills the minds of the people. Plus, this is a ski site. Don't get philosophical on news and writing with me when I am trying to tell people not to celebrate jack asses.


Ever considered a career as a professional internet outrager? I think you'd be exceptional!

You're talking about a fucking bar decoration! Do you work at the bar? Are you headed up there with epoxy and some screws and rehanging the sacred snowboards? If you answered no, then fuck off. In the time you've written these enlightening essays you could've repaired the damage.

Going into the guy's charitable works and shit........pfffffft hysterical.
Jan 18 2016 8:51AM
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00000000
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hemlockjibber8If he didn't write about it and you and Doug didn't proclaim "Awesome!" then kids wouldn't read it and be immersed in a culture of accepting and promoting this shit, leading to it happening more. The large part of my issue was that it WAS written about.


At this point, I'm just going to agree with you. Article's like Sam's are what is causing college students around the globe to be rowdy and mess things up at the bar once in a while. Sam, shame on you for writing what went down and celebrating it like it was the best part of the weekend. Next time, I expect you to personally go back to the establishment and interview the owner, apologizing profusely for what others did, and then write about it in your article.

Doug, you are what's wrong with this industry for mentioning the ski trip looked like a good time. You are also a horrible president for giving so many young journalist, photographers, filmers, and athletes the chance to travel and write about this stupid shit.

Everyone else who wouldn't have physically pulled him down should go fuck themselves as well.
Jan 18 2016 8:52AM
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hemlockjibber8
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Ya pretty much. Nailed it. Good work.
Jan 18 2016 8:58AM
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SBCSkier
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hemlockjibber8If he didn't write about it and you and Doug didn't proclaim "Awesome!" then kids wouldn't read it and be immersed in a culture of accepting and promoting this shit, leading to it happening more. The large part of my issue was that it WAS written about.


We simply said "Can we come next time?". Don't go assuming that means were are celebrating or condoning destructing of property, ski theft, or rape. If you are going to quote us, at least get your facts straight.

At the end of the day, kids will be kids and shit will get broken. We haven't polled every ski town watering hole owner, but we could hazard a guess and say that a majority of them just consider it a part of the gig. Should it happen, no? Should this much energy be exerted on the topic? Probably not.

And again, don't kill the messenger. Sam is just trying to make a few bucks and pay rent like the rest of us. If he was on assignment for us and we were there, we would have simply made sure things were cool with Soap, left a nice tip, and gave them a shoutout in the article. If you are going to be upset with someone, be upset with Doug for allowing these types of news pieces to be posted.

And maybe I'm a bad person for not physically stopping the drunkard, and if that's what you think, I'm totally okay with that! I'm just not the type of person who does those kind of things... I'm more the quiet guy in the corner having a conversation about politics -- not pulling down upside down drunk college students. I don't get paid enough for that shit.
Jan 18 2016 9:17AM
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hemlockjibber8
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That I agree with for the most part. While most of the energy was actually spent debating gonzo reporting, but I appreciate your point. While it is essentially pat for the course at a bar, that does not make it chill and people do have to deal with it.
I'm just calling people out for shitty behaviour.
Jan 18 2016 9:33AM
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HamFaceGirl
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lol who gives a shit, take the stick out of your ass op
Jan 18 2016 9:53AM
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cydwhit
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MousseauA few thoughts.

- No, it's not traditional journalism. I wouldn't call it an opinion piece either. It's gonzo journalism. Personally I think gonzo journalism is a form of journalism, but I guess that's up for debate.
- What would have you done in Sam's situation? Leave the bar? Yell at the idiot trying to strap in? Physically stop him? Would have you let it happen and interview the owner, making the entire article about 30 seconds of stupidity? I'm genuinely curious as to how you would have handled it.
- Both of us know making that kind of comparison is a slippery slope. What do you think journalist embedded in war zones do when faced with those type of moral dilemmas?


- I'm fine with it being a form of journalism, but where it sits on the spectrum for protection is up for debate in my mind. I'm 100% for journalistic freedom, but I think we weaken that argument for freedom when we try to justify everything we do with it.

-I am not really 100% in agreement with the hardcore guys doing the callout here. I think they are overreacting, but since this conversation is already happening I figured I'd jump in.

-I think that conceivably every option you mentioned could potentially work. I wasn't there so I'm not going to make a judgement on what would have been best. Conceivably Turner acted 100% right there, I wasn't present, I can't pass full judgment.

-That was the whole point of that comparison. This stuff is morally really freaking gnarly, and minor decisions on what you believe to be right and wrong are amplified when lives hang in the balance. So might as well have this conversation about some minor damage to a bar, rather than something more important.

So I'm not having a hernia over this piece, that's why I didn't comment on the article or make this thread. I just think it's a discussion worth having, and I was surprised at the adamant "he's a journalist so it's ok" argument, as opposed to actually digging into how it could have potentially been handled better, or whatever.

Again, nothing but love to all involved.
Jan 18 2016 11:19AM
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Mr.Bishop
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hemlockjibber8Who I am directly calling out for encouraging this fucking disrespectful behaviour is two industry professionals who obviously have a decent amount of influence on the readers of this material.

SBCSkier
"Can we come next time?"

Mr.Bishop
"Looks like a darn good time."


Alright there we go!

Yeah I mean I did think it looked like a good time. If I was college aged, I'd go on these sorts of things all the time.

In that situation I would have stopped the guy... and if for some reason I was the guy trying to strap in - or I was the organizer of the trip... I would have immediately whipped out my credit card and say "Looks like I just bought that! I am extremely sorry for my own (or my people's) actions and I'm 100% committed to restitution." In my world, that is just how it goes.

So yeah, I still think it looked like a good time because anyone I know would make up for stupid actions. If they didn't they're shitheads and I'd call them shitheads... but one incident from one person doesn't make a whole trip extremely shitty.

I am really sorry your local place got disrespected. Can you reach out to the bar owner and ask him the damages? Maybe we can help set this right so your home town hasn't been so wronged by Newschoolers.
Jan 18 2016 11:36AM
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hemlockjibber8
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Word. Love to you all. That is really all I was writing this for. Nobody is perfect nor should be expected to be. It's how you deal with it, and that process makes the world of difference

As I told SBC, it's for the guys strapping in to deal either Soap. Not Sam or you or anyone else.

Ps. Definitely did not call the entire trip shit. I specifically called out that incident. See my opening paragraph.
Jan 18 2016 12:03PM
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Mr.Bishop
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hemlockjibber8Word. Love to you all. That is really all I was writing this for. Nobody is perfect nor should be expected to be. It's how you deal with it, and that process makes the world of difference

As I told SBC, it's for the guys strapping in to deal either Soap. Not Sam or you or anyone else.

Ps. Definitely did not call the entire trip shit. I specifically called out that incident. See my opening paragraph.


Call the bar owner, or give me his number. I want the truth attached to this thread.
Jan 18 2016 12:10PM
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Mr.Bishop
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hemlockjibber8Word. Love to you all. That is really all I was writing this for. Nobody is perfect nor should be expected to be. It's how you deal with it, and that process makes the world of difference

As I told SBC, it's for the guys strapping in to deal either Soap. Not Sam or you or anyone else.

Ps. Definitely did not call the entire trip shit. I specifically called out that incident. See my opening paragraph.


Can I just confirm that this is the right place:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Kicking+Horse+River+House+Cafe/@51.3002348,-116.9676333,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xdc7386970b515ba5

No answer yet, I assume they aren't open.
Jan 18 2016 12:17PM
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Drail
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This is why I think that all partying should be done behind 'closed doors'. Partying shouldn't be documented, party pictures are lame, and any time you write/talk/glorify partying I personally think it comes off tasteless and trying too hard.

Everyone parties (maybe not in the PARTY!!! way, but you gotta let off some steam every once and a while), and we all do stupid shit, but if partying was a serious thing, it would be defeating the purpose entirely.

Was breaking 'art' in a bar a bad idea? Of course! Is writing about drunk people being drunk 'good', 'appropriate', 'necessary' - of course not. Does any of this actually matter in the grand scheme of things? I sure as hell hope not.

Stupid shit happens when people party. Writing about partying is lamer than writing about a competition, but if all we were allowed to write about on the skiing world is the genuinely awesome shit, there would be a LOT of nothing. It's snowing outside right now and my dog wants face shots so I'm going skiing. Maybe I'll take some pictures and write a poem to put up on NS... You know, be the change I want to see or whatever bullshit you believe in.
Jan 18 2016 12:29PM
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