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"Go to a boot-fitter" - Default Response

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BenWhit
Posts: 4654 - Karma: 3,256
Let me preface this discussion by saying that I am in no way advocating against boot-fitters. I maintain that fitters are the most essential resource for researching, purchasing, and altering ski boots. The intent of this thread is to challenge you to think deeper than the default response to EVERY SINGLE BOOT THREAD I have clicked on in the last month, "go to a boot-fitter".

The beauty of the e-marketplace is that we now have access to brands that not every brick & mortar shop carries or endorses. With the click of a button, we can have Dalbello's at our door, where the local shop might only carry Atomic and Salomon. Perhaps an even greater benefit that the convenience is the dollars saved. Online retailers are periodically having sales offering -10%, -20%, -30% discounts and they often carry prior years' gear for a fraction of the price. Most of today's shops hold inventory until the end of the season before sending them back to the wholesaler. E-retailers offer an excellent opportunity to save some coin, something generally not offered by brick & mortar retailers.

I was once in high-school. I was once a broke college kid. Hell, I'm a broke adult now. I understand the worry and the frustration that comes along with participating in a sport that requires a significant cash investment. Any given season, you can be faced with replacing a $500 piece of equipment. Life becomes a lot easier, and skiing becomes more accessible, when we can save some money on gear, tickets, etc.

So, why is it that every time I click on a boot-related Gear Talk thread, the first response is ALWAYS "go to a boot-fitter"? The response, while correct, is lazy and uninformative. So, I challenge you to think a little deeper before you post-whore and respond as such.

To the users seeking boot advice...

- give a brief history of the boots you have skied. What did you like? What didn't you like? What spots gave you problems? What features did you feel you'd want in a future boot? What size, last, instep and closure-system did they have?

- what are you looking for in your next boot? what kind of price range can you realistically work in?

- what specific boots are you currently considering?

To the users offering boot advice...

- consider that not every skier has access to a "good" boot-fitter. I have had varied experiences with shops that are well-known for and well-versed in boot-fitting.

- consider that not every skier has the financial leeway to spend $400-$600 on boots. Most 14 year-old's don't have a credit card. Most 16 year-old's need to buy gas. Most college kids need books.

- help the user make an informed decision. Is there situation so complex that they absolutely NEED to see a boot-fitter to purchase a boot? Can a user save themselves 50% off the MSRP and make minor adjustments with a brick & mortar shop?

We are privy to knowledge and resources that the average Jerry is not privy to, just by being on this site. We have users that are experienced and reputable boot-fitters. We have brands and shops well love that are actively watching, reading, and commenting on content here. Enough of your cookie-cutter, poorly informed advice.

I recognize that by purchasing online, we are sometimes cannibalizing on business of local shops and brands that are a speck in the pond. I realize that purchasing online is not an ideal scenario for skiers and boot-fitters alike. But, at the end of the day, not all skiers are boot-fitters, but most fitters are undoubtedly skiers. Buying online represents an opportunity to make the sport more accessible to new skiers and established skiers alike.
Jan 13 2016 4:22PM
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shin-bang
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 6,997
Amen
Jan 13 2016 5:35PM
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Pac2
Posts: 794 - Karma: 2,861
Fuck U op I'm not reading that
Jan 13 2016 5:39PM
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DowseBigamy
Posts: 113 - Karma: 147
What about those of us that are boot fitters trying to give some advice?

Really, it's possible to tell from someone saying 'I had SPKs, but the inside of my ankle was in agony' that your foot was probably pronating inside the boot. Easy fix for this is a proper supportive footbed, which you probably didn't already have.Then possibly start looking at other boots if there are other issues.

I get what you're saying though, someone saying 'go to a boot fitter' isn't an answer. But what about someone saying 'go to a boot fitter because...'? Unless everyone starts posting photos of their feet...

Yeh, not everyone can get to a boot fitter, and certainly not everyone can get to a good boot fitter. If you can get to one though, good or not, they could at least give you some advice. They can't force you to buy things off them (This could of course backfire and you could end up being given bad advice - depends on the fitter!). On the other hand, if you can go to a good, genuine boot fitter - one interested in helping you, not taking your money - if they don't have anything in stock, they'll tell you what to look for and where to look. Not try to get you to buy whatever they happen to have in stock. Maybe buy them a beer, keep them happy.

We're here to try and help, but obviously we can't give you perfect advice through a screen.

First piece of useful advice. You buy size 9 skate shoes. Probably don't buy the equivalent to a size 9 ski boot. It'll probably be too big.
Jan 13 2016 6:37PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
You said in the other thread that as long as you know your own feet and what sorts of boots work well for them and do some research on boots, then you can make a fairly well informed decision when buying online.

And I agree with this, but I guess my response to this would be that if someone feels the need to make a thread on the internet asking if a boot will work for them or asking for recommendations, chances are pretty high that they don't know enough about their own foot, boots, and how boots fit to buy online successfully.

You're right that if someone made a thread saying "my foot is x length with y last and z instep and I've like these boots in the past" it would be possible to give them some good advice, but the vast, vast majority of a time the op is basically "hey guys, I can get this boot cheap online, will I like it?" or "I need boots. What should I get?" and in those cases, when the person offers literally zero information about their foot or what boots have worked well for them in the past, it seems easier for everyone to just recommend they see a boot fitter.
Jan 13 2016 6:53PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
Thank you. I recently made my first, legit ski boot purchase from a shop with a boot fitter and it cost me over $700 (cdn). It's also the first time I've had that kind of money to spend on boots.

Growing up on the prairies, decent ski shops were few and far between and rarely carried anything better than entry-mid range equipment (aka never anything greater that 100 flex) and never sold anything less than msrp. The internet meant I had access to better, cheaper stuff without having to travel 8-900km.

If you can do it, absolutely go to a boot fitter, but the fact of the matter is it isn't always realistic.
Jan 13 2016 8:37PM
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gnar_whal
Posts: 1286 - Karma: 3,787
Just go to a boot fitter man. Geez
Jan 13 2016 10:01PM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
The reason everyone always says go to a boot fitter is because ski boots are by far the most important part of your ski equipment and are the most important thing to invest in when it comes to ski equipment.

You can ski with shitty 4th hand skis, jackets, googles, socks, etc and still have a great time but you if you cheap out on ski boots and end up with something that doesn't work it can destroy your experience because you'll just be in pain and you won't be able to ski to your full ability.

If you also end up in ski boots that do not fit properly it can actually be dangerous and you increase your risk of getting injured, skiing in boot thats are too big or don't fit correctly for example can lead to some extremely painful shin bang and busting up your toe nails due to toe bang.

The other reason people always say go to a boot fitter is because the chance of a ski boot fitting you perfectly straight out of the box is extremely small. In fact in my opinion ski boots will never fit you properly or perform to their full potential without getting custom made footbeds. I know in every pair of ski boots I've bought I've always had to get something punched out or have the shell grounded down in certain areas. Other things such as heat molding liners can also make a boot fit so much better.

It is also very difficult to give good boot advice without being able to see a persons foot. There's a lot more to take into consideration than just foot size and shape, the whole leg and ankle should also be analyzed to determine what boots are the correct choice.
Jan 13 2016 10:27PM
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BenWhit
Posts: 4654 - Karma: 3,256
NegromancerThe reason everyone always says go to a boot fitter is because ski boots are by far the most important part of your ski equipment and are the most important thing to invest in when it comes to ski equipment.

You can ski with shitty 4th hand skis, jackets, googles, socks, etc and still have a great time but you if you cheap out on ski boots and end up with something that doesn't work it can destroy your experience because you'll just be in pain and you won't be able to ski to your full ability.

If you also end up in ski boots that do not fit properly it can actually be dangerous and you increase your risk of getting injured, skiing in boot thats are too big or don't fit correctly for example can lead to some extremely painful shin bang and busting up your toe nails due to toe bang.

The other reason people always say go to a boot fitter is because the chance of a ski boot fitting you perfectly straight out of the box is extremely small. In fact in my opinion ski boots will never fit you properly or perform to their full potential without getting custom made footbeds. I know in every pair of ski boots I've bought I've always had to get something punched out or have the shell grounded down in certain areas. Other things such as heat molding liners can also make a boot fit so much better.

It is also very difficult to give good boot advice without being able to see a persons foot. There's a lot more to take into consideration than just foot size and shape, the whole leg and ankle should also be analyzed to determine what boots are the correct choice.


I fully understand why users default to "go to a bootfitter" and I am not trying to argue that. My intent was to foster more informed and in-depth discussion from both the buyer and those trying to give advice. with more information, we can better inform online buyers. From there, they can make the decision to make modifications to the boot after having purchased it at a significant discount. you can make virtually any boot to virtually any foot, within reason.
Jan 13 2016 11:48PM
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BenWhit
Posts: 4654 - Karma: 3,256
DowseBigamyI get what you're saying though, someone saying 'go to a boot fitter' isn't an answer. But what about someone saying 'go to a boot fitter because...'? Unless everyone starts posting photos of their feet...


I really don't want that. I hate feet more than you could ever know.

I'm just very tired of going into a thread and seeing 10000 "go to a bootfitter" comments without a modest attempt at being helpful.

At the very least, we can offer informed advice to save fellow NSer's a few bucks. From there, they can have the boot modified as needed to fit perfectly. If a boot meets minimum acceptable criteria for the boot to fit a user, there are a variety of options to make it fit even better.
Jan 13 2016 11:54PM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
BenWhitI fully understand why users default to "go to a bootfitter" and I am not trying to argue that. My intent was to foster more informed and in-depth discussion from both the buyer and those trying to give advice. with more information, we can better inform online buyers. From there, they can make the decision to make modifications to the boot after having purchased it at a significant discount. you can make virtually any boot to virtually any foot, within reason.


Yeah but the problem is if you bring a boot into a shop that you've bought online they're going to charge you a lot to get any modifications done. If you buy a boot from the shop all good shops will make the modifications for free and often give you a discount if you buy the boot and get footbeds made with them.
Jan 14 2016 12:22AM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
NegromancerYeah but the problem is if you bring a boot into a shop that you've bought online they're going to charge you a lot to get any modifications done. If you buy a boot from the shop all good shops will make the modifications for free and often give you a discount if you buy the boot and get footbeds made with them.


Maybe, but if you are getting a high end boot, that's upwards of a minimum of $500. Also, you might end up with something that might not be perfect, but is still decent. The last pair of boots I got prior to my new pair, I got for under $200. Not perfect, but not terrible. Never spent any money on getting fitted or anything.

A boot fitter is the best option, but not one that's available for everyone.
Jan 14 2016 12:44AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6665 - Karma: 10,930
I think you will find that the response of "go to a boot-fitter" happens because so many kids ask "should I get Full Tilts or Dalbellos?" or "is X a better boot than Y?" Both of which are absolutely useless questions to ask. 99.99% of the time they don't provide any information on their foot or previous boot selection and thus this response is fully justified in my opinion. I rarely waste my time replying to such threads. There are 2 stickied threads at the top of the page that instantly answer at least 70% of their questions, which they ignore or fail to see.

I agree with you, that when people ask legitimate questions and provide useful personal information, then it starts to become a meaningful topic that deserves a response. But this is rarely, rarely the case.
Jan 14 2016 6:46AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6665 - Karma: 10,930
BenWhitOnline retailers are periodically having sales offering -10%, -20%, -30% discounts and they often carry prior years' gear for a fraction of the price. Most of today's shops hold inventory until the end of the season before sending them back to the wholesaler. E-retailers offer an excellent opportunity to save some coin, something generally not offered by brick & mortar retailers.


Online retailers (e-tailers) are held to the same Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP) that Brick and Mortar retailers are held to. That means e-tailers are not allowed to run a sale during the majority of the year (usually August 1 - Feb 1) and after that there are set discount tiers each month (i.e. 10% in February, 20% in March, etc). If an e-tailer is caught violating MAP policy, the manufacturer/brand will stop selling to them. Therefore, when you are talking about current year product, there is no price benefit in buying from an e-tailer vs. a normal retailer. In fact, there is arguably more of a reason to by from a retailer because for the same price they usually give you some sort of "boot-fit guarantee" where they perform fitting service free of charge for a given (or unlimited) period.

And again, to reiterate from another thread, retailers do not send their unsold equipment back to the manufacturer. When (if) this happens, it is an extremely rare circumstance.
Jan 14 2016 7:13AM
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BenWhit
Posts: 4654 - Karma: 3,256
onenerdykidOnline retailers (e-tailers) are held to the same Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP) that Brick and Mortar retailers are held to. That means e-tailers are not allowed to run a sale during the majority of the year (usually August 1 - Feb 1) and after that there are set discount tiers each month (i.e. 10% in February, 20% in March, etc). If an e-tailer is caught violating MAP policy, the manufacturer/brand will stop selling to them. Therefore, when you are talking about current year product, there is no price benefit in buying from an e-tailer vs. a normal retailer. In fact, there is arguably more of a reason to by from a retailer because for the same price they usually give you some sort of "boot-fit guarantee" where they perform fitting service free of charge for a given (or unlimited) period.

And again, to reiterate from another thread, retailers do not send their unsold equipment back to the manufacturer. When (if) this happens, it is an extremely rare circumstance.


I was more referring to Cyber Monday and the "outlet" on any e-marketplace retailer's site. I think you are much more likely to find a wider array of modestly priced boots because retailers like Evo & getboards offer prior year models at a heavy discount.

Perhaps I was misled by my local shop. I went in at the end of last season and they were offering a 2 for 1 on boots. Boots! I asked why they were doing this and the manager reiterated to me that they hold their gear on consignment and if it goes unsold, they are sent back to the wholesaler. A pay for what you sell type deal.
Jan 14 2016 9:19AM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
I recently bought my first pair of boots online and couldnt be happier. Got some amazing Nordica's that were a couple years old for a huge sale this summer for $175...they were $700 boots retail. They needed some minor work and I spent around $100 fixing them. So for $275 I have a 130 flex top of the line free ride boot. Cant complain.

I guess I got lucky in terms of fit, etc. But that being said...its a changing world. If you can purchase 5 pairs of boots online at once and than try them on and return 4 of them to save yoruself hundreds of dollars its well worth it.
Jan 14 2016 9:54AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6665 - Karma: 10,930
BenWhitI was more referring to Cyber Monday and the "outlet" on any e-marketplace retailer's site. I think you are much more likely to find a wider array of modestly priced boots because retailers like Evo & getboards offer prior year models at a heavy discount.


When it comes to prior year equipment, the e-tailers are going to win for sure. They literally buy product by the truckload.
Jan 14 2016 10:06AM
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BenWhit
Posts: 4654 - Karma: 3,256
onenerdykidWhen it comes to prior year equipment, the e-tailers are going to win for sure. They literally buy product by the truckload.


That's where I think the major benefit is. There is very little deviation in product on a year-to-year basis (generalization). If I can get last year's skis or boots for a 50% discount over this year's, hell yeah I'm going to do it.
Jan 14 2016 10:13AM
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baggis123
Posts: 87 - Karma: 116
Just in general. Dumb boot questions should be responded with "go to a boot fitter!" if the question clearly shows someone has no idea what there talking about they should go to a boot fitter.
Jan 14 2016 10:35AM
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drumbumocdp
Posts: 3229 - Karma: 1,098
Yesterday I had a kid who lives in Chicago (I'm in CO) come in with a k2 pinicale 130 LV that was two sizes too big, and still too small in his last. Now i have to spend a couple hours fucking with this thing that is never gonna work, and not sell boots for that commission that I rely on to pay bills. Kid couldn't flex it a millimeter, but he got a deal on eBay, and now I'm responsible to fix his issues.

I agree with what youre saying, but
you obviously have a clue. Most people with no access to a boot shop are Jerry's who will buy the cheapest thing, or loaded and just get the 'best' boot and go right for the rx130 LV when they should be in a Nordica cruise to fit their loaf of bread foot.

there should be a 'here's a picture of my foot from 3 differnet angles with accurate measurements, what boot do I get' thread
Jan 14 2016 11:05AM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
drumbumocdpYesterday I had a kid who lives in Chicago (I'm in CO) come in with a k2 pinicale 130 LV that was two sizes too big, and still too small in his last. Now i have to spend a couple hours fucking with this thing that is never gonna work, and not sell boots for that commission that I rely on to pay bills. Kid couldn't flex it a millimeter, but he got a deal on eBay, and now I'm responsible to fix his issues.

I agree with what youre saying, but
you obviously have a clue. Most people with no access to a boot shop are Jerry's who will buy the cheapest thing, or loaded and just get the 'best' boot and go right for the rx130 LV when they should be in a Nordica cruise to fit their loaf of bread foot.

there should be a 'here's a picture of my foot from 3 differnet angles with accurate measurements, what boot do I get' thread


Eh...Idk man. If its 2 sizes to big and he isn't powerful enough to flex it. Ultimately there is nothing you can really do to make it work optimally. If I was working on commision I would tell him its not going to happen
Jan 14 2016 11:16AM
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