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This topic is being discussed in another thread, but I think it needs its own thread given the seriousness of the situation. Similar attacks have occurred in various other German cities as well.
onenerdykidThere is no doubt in my mind that belief leads to action. If I was told today that I had 6 months left to live and believed it, that belief would lead me to act in certain ways. The problem is that simply being a Muslim does not definitively tell you what beliefs that Muslim holds. The degree to which a Muslims believes will be the degree to which they act on those beliefs. Is the Muslim a cultural Muslim (a non-believer but has been brought up in a "Muslim" way, similar to most Americans and their association with Christianity), a moderate/liberal Muslim, a conservative Muslim, an Islamist Muslim, or a jihadist Muslim? Each type of Muslim has a different set of beliefs and these different beliefs lead to different actions for each believer.
For example, the cultural Muslim might not drink alcohol and he certainly will not think the will of Allah to be absolute in all regards, does not want everyone to submit to the will of Allah, and does not support spreading the will of Allah through violence. Whereas the Islamist and jihadist both do not drink alcohol, both think the will of Allah is absolute in all regards, they want us all to submit to the will of Allah, and support those who spread His message through violence (with the jihadist being the one who actually spreads the message through violence).
Christianity has/did have these exact parallels, as (most) every religion does. The problem is that Christianity has been exposed to more secular taming than Islam has, but this exposure has, unfortunately, taken hundreds of years to get to where it is today. The reality is that we don't have another 500 years to wait for Islam to get its shit together. We need more moderate Muslims and these refugees that are fleeing the extreme Islamists and jihadists are one of the best chances we have right now at doing that. If our vetting process is the least bit successful, the 10,000 refugees that will come into the USA will most likely be moderate Muslims, not Islamists or jihadists. It is much better to encourage the spread of moderate Islam than it is to shun the entire Muslim population.
For sure safeguards need to be put in place and people need to be monitored in order to catch the small percentage of Islamists/jihadists that sneak through the vetting process. As you've shown, there are these safeguards in place and we are catching them.
I'm not sure you can say Christianity has the same parallels. The teachings of the men at the center of Christianity and Islam are miles apart, and that affects the character of the those who follow each religion. While Christians carrying out evil were contradicting their religion, Muslims are following a more "pure" form of it.
The actions of ISIS are all supported by the Koran and Hadith.
Also, I think your optimism about "moderate" Muslims way be unrealistic. Nothing so far has shown that moderate Muslims have been reliable allies against radical Islam and terrorism. Over 80 mosques in the United States openly preach jihad.
Also, I posted a graph from Pew Research that showed that 13% of Syrian "refugees" support ISIS. Out of the 1,000,000 that have entered Europe, that means 130,000 harbor sympathies to Islamic jihad and the Caliphate. That is not a "tiny minority", or a number worth ignoring. I can find the source for you if you like.
Not to mention the tens of thousands that carry out "Tahharush" organized gang rape and sexual assault of European women. They may not support ISIS directly, but they are criminals and terrorists all the same, and frankly they deserve to be thrown into the ocean, it's too bad they weren't allowed to sink in the Mediterranean in the first place.
As I've said before, there are only two types of Muslims, the ones who follow Sharia and those who reject it. Muslims that follow Sharia are potentially dangerous, and should be regarded with suspicion. Those who reject Sharia should be supported and defended. No one who follows Sharia should ever be considered moderate.
CampeadorAlso, I think your optimism about "moderate" Muslims way be unrealistic. Nothing so far has shown that moderate Muslims have been reliable allies against radical Islam and terrorism. Over 80 mosques in the United States openly preach jihad.
80 out of over 2100 mosques in the States. A little under 4%.
nocturnalYeah man we don't just let anybody walk into this country for vacation. That's what I'm saying gooooood job
...and we don't let just anyone immigrate. So of you're okay with security for vacationers, why not for immigrants from refugee countries? It's likely a stricter filter for refugees anyhow.
californiagrown...and we don't let just anyone immigrate. So of you're okay with security for vacationers, why not for immigrants from refugee countries? It's likely a stricter filter for refugees anyhow.
How many people do we let walk in here for a vacation from a country inhabited by isis? I'll give you a hint it's not a lot.
CampeadorI'm not sure you can say Christianity has the same parallels. The teachings of the men at the center of Christianity and Islam are miles apart, and that affects the character of the those who follow each religion. While Christians carrying out evil were contradicting their religion, Muslims are following a more "pure" form of it.
When I say that Christianity and Islam had parallels, it was in regard to the level/intensity of belief and how it leads to action. It was definitely not in respect to their prophets and I agree with you that the two are vastly different- one prophet was a peace loving hippie who sacrificed himself while the other was a warlord who led over 60 jihads, took sex slaves, and raped a 9 year old girl.
But, with that said, if anyone follows the Old Testament (which Jesus said was still valid and lived his entire life following) you will get support from God for genocide, honor killings, stoning non-virgins, killing heretics, treatment of homosexuals, subjugation of women (also found in the New Testament), promotion and support for slavery (also found in New Testament), anti-Semitism (also found in New Testament) etc. The Christians who carried out the various Inquisitions and other historical horrors in the name of Christianity, were certainly following certain teachings in the Bible, which are all backed up by scripture. To say that they were contradicting their religion is not correct- their religion is in itself self-contradictory and justifying atrocities to our fellow humans using Christian scripture is quite easy to do.
And I agree that Europe is going to be in worse shape than the USA with regard to the refugees since there is no real vetting process. Europe will unfortunately have more issues because of it. I fully agree with you or anyone who says that people who break our laws should be found, tried, judged, and punished. That needs to be done and not a single one of the refugees/immigrants (in any country) should be allowed any leeway on that.
onenerdykidWhen I say that Christianity and Islam had parallels, it was in regard to the level/intensity of belief and how it leads to action. It was definitely not in respect to their prophets and I agree with you that the two are vastly different- one prophet was a peace loving hippie who sacrificed himself while the other was a warlord who led over 60 jihads, took sex slaves, and raped a 9 year old girl.
But, with that said, if anyone follows the Old Testament (which Jesus said was still valid and lived his entire life following) you will get support from God for genocide, honor killings, stoning non-virgins, killing heretics, treatment of homosexuals, subjugation of women (also found in the New Testament), promotion and support for slavery (also found in New Testament), anti-Semitism (also found in New Testament) etc. The Christians who carried out the various Inquisitions and other historical horrors in the name of Christianity, were certainly following certain teachings in the Bible, which are all backed up by scripture. To say that they were contradicting their religion is not correct- their religion is in itself self-contradictory and justifying atrocities to our fellow humans using Christian scripture is quite easy to do.
And I agree that Europe is going to be in worse shape than the USA with regard to the refugees since there is no real vetting process. Europe will unfortunately have more issues because of it. I fully agree with you or anyone who says that people who break our laws should be found, tried, judged, and punished. That needs to be done and not a single one of the refugees/immigrants (in any country) should be allowed any leeway on that.
You bring up good points about Christian scripture, but there is a general understanding within Christianity that the New Testament is essentially an "update" of the Old Testament. As such, the what the New Testament says on any given topic holds authority over the Old Testament. See the example of Christ and the prostitute who was to be stoned.
While flawed, no one can say that the New Testament justifies individuals carrying out evil acts on any level that is remotely parallel to the Koran. The Koran not only justifies evil, it expressly encourages it on the path to becoming the "perfect Muslim" like Mohammad. The Koran is considered for Muslims the "update" to the Old Testament as well.
I'd say that Europe is in "bad shape" is a vast understatement. The whole of European civilization is at risk of being wiped off the Earth, and only harsh, necessary measures will preserve it. Islam, as it exists today, will never coexist with Western liberalism.
That is the inevitable direction of the prologue of this tragedy that we are currently viewing unfold before our eyes.
mishracerLook man if you want to drag up some videos from the depths of the internet to further insight an argument then I'm fine with that but, I was merely stating that the reality is not what you believe it to be. I live in the UK, I see the reality every day. You however, live several thousand miles away in a different country and presume to lecture me on the country in which I live and the society in which I am immersed. Sure, there are a few bad apples but every section of society has them. British society has and continues to face a number of multifaceted problems, this is just one on a long list.
californiagrownCan you please link that study. I'd like to read through it. The more you know...!
Let's be clear, it's not a study, it's based mainly on FBI investigations, including the Holy Land Foundation trial, and other investigations into the Muslim Brotherhood.
It's late and I don't have time to put it in the detail that I would like (though you'll probably ignore the evidence anyway), but I'll see what I can do when I have a moment.
CampeadorLet's be clear, it's not a study, it's based mainly on FBI investigations, including the Holy Land Foundation trial, and other investigations into the Muslim Brotherhood.
It's late and I don't have time to put it in the detail that I would like (though you'll probably ignore the evidence anyway), but I'll see what I can do when I have a moment.
I would simply like a chance to look at hard evidence instead of hear about its existence from an extremely biased source.
CampeadorWhile flawed, no one can say that the New Testament justifies individuals carrying out evil acts on any level that is remotely parallel to the Koran. The Koran not only justifies evil, it expressly encourages it on the path to becoming the "perfect Muslim" like Mohammad. The Koran is considered for Muslims the "update" to the Old Testament as well.
I'd say that Europe is in "bad shape" is a vast understatement. The whole of European civilization is at risk of being wiped off the Earth, and only harsh, necessary measures will preserve it. Islam, as it exists today, will never coexist with Western liberalism.
That is the inevitable direction of the prologue of this tragedy that we are currently viewing unfold before our eyes.
The Qur'an is more than just an update of the Old Testament- it is the final revelation of God's word; no other book matters. And while I totally grant you that the Qur'an is far worse than the New Testament, I don't think you can go so far to say that it cannot remotely parallel anything in the Qur'an. Both books are openly anti-Semitic and both condone & promote human slavery. The New Testament definitely preaches anti-Semitism and that Jews are of the devil (by which this and Martin Luther's major treatise On the Jews & Their Lies were two texts that the Third Reich used to justify their propaganda and actions towards the Jews). It also justifies, condones, and gives us the rules for how to keep human slaves, which was the theological basis for slavery in the New World. Again, the Qur'an assuredly takes it to the next level but I think it is a mistake to say that nothing in Christian doctrine can parallel things in the Qur'an.
While I agree that literal Islam cannot coexist with modern Western Liberalism, a literalist reading of Christian doctrine could also not coexist with modern Western Liberalism. It is also a totalitarian and absolutist theocratic doctrine that does not allow freedom of speech, freedom of worship, equal rights for men, women, and gays, etc. A literalist reading of any Abrahamic religion will be in stark opposition to Western Liberalism. So if Christianity can be brought into "moderation" and thus cohabitate with liberal ideas , the challenge must be presented and solved in the Muslim world too. As much as I would like it to, Islam isn't going away so I think we have to be realists about this. The only way Islam can mesh with Western liberal society is to find a way that Muslims can become more moderate and less dogmatic, just like their Christian counterparts have done.
Currently this challenge is being met by prolific moderate Muslims like Maajid Nawaz (who was an Islamist on his way to becoming a jihadist who fully realized the idiocy of his ways) but no question there need to be more and quickly. However, this being a form of education means it will not happen overnight. Until that happens, I am in agreement with you that there needs to be a no-toleration policy on attempt to take away our civil liberties by this or any other religion.
CampeadorLet's be clear, it's not a study, it's based mainly on FBI investigations, including the Holy Land Foundation trial, and other investigations into the Muslim Brotherhood.
It's late and I don't have time to put it in the detail that I would like (though you'll probably ignore the evidence anyway), but I'll see what I can do when I have a moment.
californiagrownI would simply like a chance to look at hard evidence instead of hear about its existence from an extremely biased source.
californiagrownEver thought about presenting the evidence in an unbiased way and letting the evidence itself be convincing?
First, a primer:
In order to understand Islam, and it's political ambitions under Sharia, once must closely analyze the oldest modern jihadist network, the Muslim Brotherhood. Their official motto below:
"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way.
Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope. Allahu akbar!"
The Brotherhood was founded in Egypt in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, who founded it as an revolutionary movement to restore the caliphate and impose strict Sharia law throughout all muslim countries, and ultimately, the world. It was later banned in Egypt when they attempted various terrorist attacks and coups against the Egyptian government in the 1940s and 1950s. They are best known during this time for having assassinated the Egyptian prime minister in 1948, and the attempted assassination of Egyptian prime minister Nasser in 1954.
"It is in the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet."
- Hassan al-Banna
Hassan al-Banna's successor, Sayyid Qutb, went on to write his manifesto "Milestones", which forms the ideological basis for all Sunni terrorist groups, including Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and ISIS,
"Extremist leaders often cite Qutb, who was hanged in 1966, to argue that governments not based on sharia are apostate and therefore legitimate targets of jihad." (CFR)
Hamas itself is "a "wing of the Muslim Brotherhood," according to the Hamas Charter, Chapter 2. The Charter calls for the murder of Jews, the "obliteration" of Israel and its replacement with an Islamist theocracy."
While the Muslim Brotherhood has often been pushed as a "moderate" muslim organization, they have simply shifted their strategy of jihad, letting their violent offshoots like Hamas and Al-Qaeda carry out the terrorist attacks, opting instead to pursue power through "civilization jihad", which seeks to undermine countries by using their democracies against them. The MB currently operates in over 70 countries.
Several nations throughout the Middle East have labeled the MB as a terrorist organization, including Egypt, and the UAE. The UAE went even further, labeling the MB's organization in the U.S., CAIR, as a terrorist organization as well. More recently, the UK government has released a report detailing the case for the MB's potential classification as a jihadist terrorist organization.
CampeadorIf you're interested, I can detail how this all applies to the U.S., but this is time-consuming and I will only do so if the interest level is there.
Please tell me how you extrapolated that summary of a UK report into hard statistics about what specifically is taught in US mosques.
californiagrownPlease tell me how you extrapolated that summary of a UK report into hard statistics about what specifically is taught in US mosques.
Sure.
I've already outlined above that their is ample evidence for considering the Muslim Brotherhood a jihadist terrorist organization. Now the question is how does that pertain to the U.S., and US mosques.
First, we'll start with the MB's own words in relation to the U.S.
The Brotherhood wants America to fall. It tells followers to be "patient" because America "is heading towards its demise." The U.S. is an infidel that "does not champion moral and human values and cannot lead humanity."
The Brotherhood calls for jihad against "the Muslim's real enemies, not only Israel but also the United States. Waging jihad against both of these infidels is a commandment of Allah that cannot be disregarded."
-Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammed Badi, Sept. 2010
Now, we know that Hamas is an official charter of the Muslim Brotherhood, what is less clear is how the Muslim Brotherhood operates in the United States. Although it's been present in the US since the 1960s (through the Muslim Student Association and later various Islamic organizations), the direct connection of it's US-based affiliates was never proven outright until the Holy Land Foundation Trial in 2008.
You can read more about it from the FBI's own report, and the following FBI diagram that directly connects CAIR to the terrorist organization Hamas, and by extension, to the Muslim Brotherhood.
CAIR is the main organization that acts as representatives of "moderate" muslims. They also jumped to defend the family of the San Bernardino terrorists after that incident.
Now, aside from CAIR, the Muslim Brotherhood operates through a number of prominent US-based mosque associations:
The first of these Muslim Brotherhood organizations is the North American Islamic Trust, which was founded by the Muslim Student Association in 1973. The FBI conducted investigations into the group starting in 1988 and continuing up until the 2007-2008 Holy Land Foundation trial. The group has been proven to be a part of the Muslim Brotherhood by the FBI, and documents recovered from the MB itself, from it's "General Strategic Goal for North America".
The NAIT, by it's own information, holds the mortgage on 325 mosques, which constitutes about 27% of all U.S. mosques. That means, just through the NAIT, 27% of the mosques in the US are being run by a terrorist organization that preaches jihad and the destruction of the West. Again, that is only through this one organization.
The previously mentioned Muslim Brotherhood "General Strategic Goal for North America" from 1991 was uncovered by the FBI and details the MB's plan for the US. It details the idea of "civilization jihad", which seeks to destroy the US from within. The FBI used this document as evidence during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation Trial.
Some excerpts:
Page 7
"The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers..."
"[W]e must possess a mastery of the art of 'coalitions', the art of 'absorption' and the principles of 'cooperation.'"
Page 18
"A list of our organizations and the organizations of our friends" - This is where the Muslim Brotherhood listed its front groups in the U.S.. Note that prominent organizations like CAIR, ISNA, ICNA and others are named here.
The second main organization is the Islamic Society of North America. They too have been proven to be a Muslim Brotherhood front group, and work as an umbrella group of US Islamic organizations and mosques. This is the largest Muslim organization inf the United States.
As stated by ISNA co-founder, Muzzamil Siddiqi,
"In Islam there is no division between religion and politics ... We have to see everything from the Islamic point of view whether social, economical or political."
"[T]hings do not change overnight. Changes comes through patience, wisdom and hard work. I believe that as Muslims we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests and try to bring gradual change for the right cause, the cause of truth and justice. We must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction."
Siddiqi aims to promote, in an incremental manner, the establishment of universal Islamic rule and the creation of a worldwide Islamic state. ISNA has direct links to the Muslim Brotherhood, and Saudi Wahhabists. All mosques financed by the ISNA are commanded to preach the Islam propagated by the MD and Saudi Wahhabists, since they are the chief financiers.
In 2008, the ISNA held the mortgages of 50% to 80% of all U.S. mosques, with overlap with the NAIT.
With all this, how can you say that U.S. mosques are not controlled by organizations that seek to preach and promote radical jihad against the West?
It's time to act against them, lets start by correctly designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, rather than inviting them to the White House as is the case with the current administration.
I've already outlined above that their is ample evidence for considering the Muslim Brotherhood a jihadist terrorist organization. Now the question is how does that pertain to the U.S., and US mosques.
First, we'll start with the MB's own words in relation to the U.S.
The Brotherhood wants America to fall. It tells followers to be "patient" because America "is heading towards its demise." The U.S. is an infidel that "does not champion moral and human values and cannot lead humanity."
The Brotherhood calls for jihad against "the Muslim's real enemies, not only Israel but also the United States. Waging jihad against both of these infidels is a commandment of Allah that cannot be disregarded."
-Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammed Badi, Sept. 2010
Now, we know that Hamas is an official charter of the Muslim Brotherhood, what is less clear is how the Muslim Brotherhood operates in the United States. Although it's been present in the US since the 1960s (through the Muslim Student Association and later various Islamic organizations), the direct connection of it's US-based affiliates was never proven outright until the Holy Land Foundation Trial in 2008.
You can read more about it from the FBI's own report, and the following FBI diagram that directly connects CAIR to the terrorist organization Hamas, and by extension, to the Muslim Brotherhood.
CAIR is the main organization that acts as representatives of "moderate" muslims. They also jumped to defend the family of the San Bernardino terrorists after that incident.
Now, aside from CAIR, the Muslim Brotherhood operates through a number of prominent US-based mosque associations:
The first of these Muslim Brotherhood organizations is the North American Islamic Trust, which was founded by the Muslim Student Association in 1973. The FBI conducted investigations into the group starting in 1988 and continuing up until the 2007-2008 Holy Land Foundation trial. The group has been proven to be a part of the Muslim Brotherhood by the FBI, and documents recovered from the MB itself, from it's "General Strategic Goal for North America".
The NAIT, by it's own information, holds the mortgage on 325 mosques, which constitutes about 27% of all U.S. mosques. That means, just through the NAIT, 27% of the mosques in the US are being run by a terrorist organization that preaches jihad and the destruction of the West. Again, that is only through this one organization.
The previously mentioned Muslim Brotherhood "General Strategic Goal for North America" from 1991 was uncovered by the FBI and details the MB's plan for the US. It details the idea of "civilization jihad", which seeks to destroy the US from within. The FBI used this document as evidence during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation Trial.
Some excerpts:
Page 7
"The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers..."
"[W]e must possess a mastery of the art of 'coalitions', the art of 'absorption' and the principles of 'cooperation.'"
Page 18
"A list of our organizations and the organizations of our friends" - This is where the Muslim Brotherhood listed its front groups in the U.S.. Note that prominent organizations like CAIR, ISNA, ICNA and others are named here.
The second main organization is the Islamic Society of North America. They too have been proven to be a Muslim Brotherhood front group, and work as an umbrella group of US Islamic organizations and mosques. This is the largest Muslim organization inf the United States.
As stated by ISNA co-founder, Muzzamil Siddiqi,
"In Islam there is no division between religion and politics ... We have to see everything from the Islamic point of view whether social, economical or political."
"[T]hings do not change overnight. Changes comes through patience, wisdom and hard work. I believe that as Muslims we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests and try to bring gradual change for the right cause, the cause of truth and justice. We must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction."
Siddiqi aims to promote, in an incremental manner, the establishment of universal Islamic rule and the creation of a worldwide Islamic state. ISNA has direct links to the Muslim Brotherhood, and Saudi Wahhabists. All mosques financed by the ISNA are commanded to preach the Islam propagated by the MD and Saudi Wahhabists, since they are the chief financiers.
In 2008, the ISNA held the mortgages of 50% to 80% of all U.S. mosques, with overlap with the NAIT.
With all this, how can you say that U.S. mosques are not controlled by organizations that seek to preach and promote radical jihad against the West?
It's time to act against them, lets start by correctly designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, rather than inviting them to the White House as is the case with the current administration.
Yeah, its what I thought. You're makingcshit up to fit your view.
What you are effectively doing is blaming the tenant for a landlords doing. Please provide direct evidence that all these mosques are teaching jihad against westerners to back up your claims.
californiagrownYeah, its what I thought. You're makingcshit up to fit your view.
What you are effectively doing is blaming the tenant for a landlords doing. Please provide direct evidence that all these mosques are teaching jihad against westerners to back up your claims.
Guilty by far removed association does not count.
I knew I was wasting my time, I'm giving you your evidence, conducted through FBI investigations, and UK government investigations, into all these groups. If that is not sufficient, I'm not sure what you consider "direct evidence".
What have I made up exactly? Since I've provided my evidence, what do you have to support your bullshit view that the mosques in the US are not controlled by Islamist organizations?
You've yet provided nothing. The ball is in your court.
CampeadorI knew I was wasting my time, I'm giving you your evidence, conducted through FBI investigations, and UK government investigations, into all these groups. If that is not sufficient, I'm not sure what you consider "direct evidence".
What have I made up exactly? Since I've provided my evidence, what do you have to support your bullshit view that the mosques in the US are not controlled by Islamist organizations?
You've yet provided nothing. The ball is in your court.
You've provided evidence that some mosques have an indirect connection to those groups.
You have in no way given evidence that all these mosques teach jihad against westerners.
And no, you are trying to prove the existence of something, therefore the onus is on you to prove it. Logic. Use it. Love it.
californiagrownYou've provided evidence that some mosques have an indirect connection to those groups.
You have in no way given evidence that all these mosques teach jihad against westerners.
And no, you are trying to prove the existence of something, therefore the onus is on you to prove it. Logic. Use it. Love it.
I have given you direct evidence, from the FBI, that a significant number of US mosques are directly connected to the Muslim Brotherhood. I have given direct evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood is a jihadist organization with a stated goal of spreading sharia globally. I have also provided evidence from the founders of the US-based charters of the MB stating that there is no separation between religion and politics in Islam.
Each mosque under the MB, or it's affiliates, is a branch of that network. The same way a retail banking operation works, you've got many branches, but their directives come from the top. To say otherwise defies the logic you pretend to espouse.
Here's more direct evidence from federal court papers, reference page 8, "The following are individuals/entities who are and/or were member of the US Muslim Brotherhood:
Unless of course you want to hold onto this false notion that the governing bodies of the mosques have no say in the day-to-day operations. I never claimed all US mosques preach jihad, but I'm sure a significant number of them preach sharia and jihad.To claim otherwise, given the evidence, is asinine. If you ignore the overwhelming evidence, then that's on you, and I have no need to waste anymore of my time with you, especially when you fail to address the evidence in any way.
Where does you deference to Islam stem from exactly?
And more evidence that significant numbers of mosques are terrorist breeding grounds, even the French are starting to realize this and are taking the correct steps, though I fear it's not enough.
"Ammunition for Kalashnikov assault rifles and Islamic State (Isis/Daesh) propaganda was seized in raids following the closure of a mosque in Paris, French authorities said. Three mosques have been closed since the 13 November terror attacks on the French capital."
"According to official figures and our discussions with the interior ministry, between 100 and 160 more mosques will be closed because they are run illegally without proper licences, they preach hatred, or use takfiri speech," he said.
CampeadorHere's more direct evidence from federal court papers, reference page 8, "The following are individuals/entities who are and/or were member of the US Muslim Brotherhood:
Unless of course you want to hold onto this false notion that the governing bodies of the mosques have no say in the day-to-day operations. I never claimed all US mosques preach jihad, but I'm sure a significant number of them preach sharia and jihad.To claim otherwise, given the evidence, is asinine. If you ignore the overwhelming evidence, then that's on you, and I have no need to waste anymore of my time with you, especially when you fail to address the evidence in any way.
Where does you deference to Islam stem from exactly?
Youve gotta be kidding me. You are now implicating everyone who was once in the MB, and every entity who once had a connection to the MB? Seriously? Yikes. Thats the definition of reaching. You do realize that Mike Tyson, and Muhamed Ali are on your list, right?
And actually you did claim a specific percentage of Mosques in the USA preached strict sharia law, and jihad against the west. So you lied? Or do feelthat your statistic was correct in the absence of any evidence? lol
My deference to islam is the same as my deference to all other religons and philosophies. I dont blame the religon for crazy people being crazy. Religon can be used for good or evil, kinda like guns, or science(eugenics). But i have no issue with those, just the crazy folks.
Again. I ask you to please cite the source/s where you got the specificstatistic about american mosques preaching strict sharia, and jihad against the west.
californiagrownYouve gotta be kidding me. You are now implicating everyone who was once in the MB, and every entity who once had a connection to the MB? Seriously? Yikes. Thats the definition of reaching. You do realize that Mike Tyson, and Muhamed Ali are on your list, right?
And actually you did claim a specific percentage of Mosques in the USA preached strict sharia law, and jihad against the west. So you lied? Or do feelthat your statistic was correct in the absence of any evidence? lol
My deference to islam is the same as my deference to all other religons and philosophies. I dont blame the religon for crazy people being crazy. Religon can be used for good or evil, kinda like guns, or science(eugenics). But i have no issue with those, just the crazy folks.
Again. I ask you to please cite the source/s where you got the specificstatistic about american mosques preaching strict sharia, and jihad against the west.
You are a liar, nowhere on the court documents I linked do Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali appear as co-conspirators in the Holy Land trial. Nice try to discredit evidence in the most pathetic way I have yet seen.
I cited the sources, it's not my problem if you're too lazy to read them. The most recent estimates I could find detail 27% from CAIR itself. This was back in 2003, and the number could easily be higher now. So at a minimum, 27% of the US mosques are run by an organization with direct links to terrorism, and that pushes for sharia and jihad. But naive souls like you would like to believe none of that permeates down to the mosques that they own and run.
"An ISNA subsidiary called the North American Islamic Trust owns about 27 percent of the estimated 1200 mosques in the United States, says a report by the Council on American-Islamic Relations."
CampeadorYou are a liar, nowhere on the court documents I linked do Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali appear as co-conspirators in the Holy Land trial. Nice try to discredit evidence in the most pathetic way I have yet seen.
I cited the sources, it's not my problem if you're too lazy to read them. The most recent estimates I could find detail 27% from CAIR itself. This was back in 2003, and the number could easily be higher now. So at a minimum, 27% of the US mosques are run by an organization with direct links to terrorism, and that pushes for sharia and jihad. But naive souls like you would like to believe none of that permeates down to the mosques that they own and run.
"An ISNA subsidiary called the North American Islamic Trust owns about 27 percent of the estimated 1200 mosques in the United States, says a report by the Council on American-Islamic Relations."
I apologize i misread your quote. In all fairness, im not sure why you included that quote without including the rest of the pertinent information as it makes no sense on its own.
So you still have no evidence of 20% of mosques in the USA teaching strict sharia and jihad against westerners. That is a fact. You are purely speculating that it may be true based upon loose connections to the muslim brotherhood. You are reaching for conclusions that are not based in fact, my friend.
When you pull that kind of shit, you lose credibility. If you truly believe in your cause, you should refrain from misrepresenting the truth as it will taint any other good points you may have.
californiagrownI apologize i misread your quote. In all fairness, im not sure why you included that quote without including the rest of the pertinent information as it makes no sense on its own.
So you still have no evidence of 20% of mosques in the USA teaching strict sharia and jihad against westerners. That is a fact. You are purely speculating that it may be true based upon loose connections to the muslim brotherhood. You are reaching for conclusions that are not based in fact, my friend.
When you pull that kind of shit, you lose credibility. If you truly believe in your cause, you should refrain from misrepresenting the truth as it will taint any other good points you may have.
What you define as "loose connections" have been proven links uncovered through thorough investigations by the FBI over decades. Explain how these direct connections as established by the FBI fit your own interpretation as "loose connections".
All of the organizations I mentioned were founded by members of the MB, they have maintained that radical ideology, and they help finance foreign MB terrorist charter organizations like Hamas. These are all facts.
CampeadorWhat you define as "loose connections" have been proven links uncovered through thorough investigations by the FBI over decades. Explain how these direct connections as established by the FBI fit your own interpretation as "loose connections".
All of the organizations I mentioned were founded by members of the MB, they have maintained that radical ideology, and they help finance foreign MB terrorist charter organizations like Hamas. These are all facts.
Where is the evidence that 20% of american mosques activley teach strict sharia, and johad against the west?
Are you saying that guilty by association is your evidence?
californiagrownWhere is the evidence that 20% of american mosques activley teach strict sharia, and johad against the west?
Are you saying that guilty by association is your evidence?
At minimum, 27% of US mosques are owned and run by an organization with direct links to the terrorist organizations. That is not "guilt by association", that is guilt by incorporation.
CampeadorAt minimum, 27% of US mosques are owned and run by an organization with direct links to the terrorist organizations. That is not "guilt by association", that is guilt by incorporation.
so you are running away from earlier statements you made and used to argue against other people?
Also, i dont think you know what direct means. A second degree connection is not direct. Again, you misrepresent the truth.
californiagrownso you are running away from earlier statements you made and used to argue against other people?
Also, i dont think you know what direct means. A second degree connection is not direct. Again, you misrepresent the truth.
That is false, I'm not sure you understand the difference. You have nothing to back your assertion that these groups are not directly connected.
If you reference a statement, you should specify which one, rather than make dubious claims that I am "running away" from them.
Again, I've provided a mountain of evidence to back my arguments, and all you've done is play devil's advocate, with nothing to back your counter-arguments. Until you can back what you say with something more than your own opinion, I'm finished discussing with you. I have no time to waste arguing semantics.
CampeadorThat is false, I'm not sure you understand the difference. You have nothing to back your assertion that these groups are not directly connected.
If you reference a statement, you should specify which one, rather than make dubious claims that I am "running away" from them.
Again, I've provided a mountain of evidence to back my arguments, and all you've done is play devil's advocate, with nothing to back your counter-arguments. Until you can back what you say with something more than your own opinion, I'm finished discussing with you. I have no time to waste arguing semantics.
- youre own sources back they are not directly connected. They are at most conected through an organization that is connected to the terrorist groups.
-Again, i ask you where is the evidence that 20% of mosques in the USA teach strict sharia, and johad against the west. that is and has been the statement i have and had an issue with. Im beginning to think youre trolling.
-You are the one who has to prove that it exists haha. You cite blatantly false, made up statistics, and misword the truth to fit your argument. I am simply calling that out. I asked for direct evidence. You have provided, at best, circumstantial evidence.
californiagrown- youre own sources back they are not directly connected. They are at most conected through an organization that is connected to the terrorist groups.
-Again, i ask you where is the evidence that 20% of mosques in the USA teach strict sharia, and johad against the west. that is and has been the statement i have and had an issue with. Im beginning to think youre trolling.
-You are the one who has to prove that it exists haha. You cite blatantly false, made up statistics, and misword the truth to fit your argument. I am simply calling that out. I asked for direct evidence. You have provided, at best, circumstantial evidence.
Please try again.
I've given you evidence from FBI investigations, and a high-profile federal court trial.
I couldn't care less about your regard as to the validity of this evidence.
californiagrownbut that evidence doesnt regard what is taught in 20% of US mosques. if the evidence doesnt address the question, it cannot answer the question.
Even an idiot can see that Muslim ideologies have no place in western culture. Being Muslim inherently creates a distaste for western culture.
PCPRINCIPALE: Only an idiot can see that Muslim ideologies have no place in western culture. Being Muslim inherently creates a distaste for western culture.[/quote]
californiagrownbut that evidence doesnt regard what is taught in 20% of US mosques. if the evidence doesnt address the question, it cannot answer the question.
I've already given you evidence that the largest Islamic organization in America, ISNA, has direct ties to terrorist organizations and are proponents of Islamic sharia ideology.
I've also given you evidence that they provide "educational" materials and support to anywhere between 50-80% of U.S. mosques, with their subsidiary holding company NAIT, holding direct ownership titles over 27% of the mosques, as per the most recent statistic.
It's not my fault if you are too dim to connect the dots. Your argument can easily be summed up with
"Just because a church is run by a Catholic diocese, doesn't necessarily mean they're preaching Catholicism! You have no proof!"
It's not a stretch to understand that a Sharia Islamist organization would be instructing mosques under it's control to preach the Sharia Islam that it directly represents. Or maybe your naive enough to believe organizations that are part of a sharia jihadist network are preaching the kumbaya, "religion of peace" bullshit you believe to be true.
Significant numbers of mosques in western countries are terror breeding grounds, as evidenced directly by all the raids and mosque closures in France.
What would we find if we started raiding terror mosques in the U.S., I wonder?
Is there any greater hatred in the world for women than in Islamic culture? They truly have a deep, virulent hatred for the fairer sex, to the point of complete and total insanity.
Not going to post it here, but yet another wife has had her face mutilated (nose and ears cut off) by her muslim husband in Afghanistan, all well and good within the confines of Sharia law. This is also a common occurrence.
Not to mention, that great new government in Afghanistan approved a law in 2013 that allows any woman accused of adultery to be stoned to death, which could stem from something like not finding blood on the sheets after the wedding night (which to them means the wife is not a virgin). This was of course all approved by the Sharia courts. That is if they even get to the sharia "trial" before being mutilated first.
What a truly evil country, and these Afghan men are entering Europe as "refugees" by the tens of thousands.
Enjoy what you've got coming you German idiots!
If you are a German, you should be truly ashamed of the evil, rabid dogs that you are voluntarily unleashing on the girls and women in your society. You are to blame, for you are complicit in the evil that is taking place, and that will continue to take place in ever greater numbers as the years progress.
CampeadorIs there any greater hatred in the world for women than in Islamic culture? They truly have a deep, virulent hatred for the fairer sex, to the point of complete and total insanity.
Not going to post it here, but yet another wife has had her face mutilated (nose and ears cut off) by her muslim husband in Afghanistan, all well and good within the confines of Sharia law. This is also a common occurrence.
Not to mention, that great new government in Afghanistan approved a law in 2013 that allows any woman accused of adultery to be stoned to death, which could stem from something like not finding blood on the sheets after the wedding night (which to them means the wife is not a virgin). This was of course all approved by the Sharia courts. That is if they even get to the sharia "trial" before being mutilated first.
What a truly evil country, and these Afghan men are entering Europe as "refugees" by the tens of thousands.
Enjoy what you've got coming you German idiots!
If you are a German, you should be truly ashamed of the evil, rabid dogs that you are voluntarily unleashing on the girls and women in your society. You are to blame, for you are complicit in the evil that is taking place, and that will continue to take place in ever greater numbers as the years progress.
So you believe the vast majority of Arabs and Persians are evil, rabid dogs? Or is it all Muslims? Or must they be a combination of the two to qualify?
You have a strong dislike for organized religon, right? What does your moral conscience say we should do to help the innocent folks fleeing wars and famine? Or should we choose to not help?
Campeador[...]
Enjoy what you've got coming you German idiots!
If you are a German, you should be truly ashamed of the evil, rabid dogs that you are voluntarily unleashing on the girls and women in your society. You are to blame, for you are complicit in the evil that is taking place, and that will continue to take place in ever greater numbers as the years progress.
We "stupid idiots" (Thanks btw.) know this situation better. My family lives there, I live there. We have in our village (size~1000 ppl.) now 130 refugees from Syria/Iraq/Eritrea and other countries. And my experiences are mostly positive.
Why always generalizing? Groups of immigrants raped and/or sexually insulted women (German, Turkish etc.). This doesnt mean that all male immigrants are dangerous.
Did any of your proper newspaper (No FOX News and other sh*t) wrote something about male immigrants who are giving roses and other goodies away to random women on streets in Hamburg,Berlin etc. to show their solidaritiy with these? Anything about immigrants that protected women in Cologne by getting raped?
Do you say that all of us Germans are Nazis and racist , because stupid fuckheads had already burned over 900 housings that were provided for immigrants? I doubt that!
So stop generalizing. This is one of the reasons that causes fear of refugees, which results in Nationalism and xenophobia.
Buuuut this doesnt mean that I totally agree with our "Everybody is welcome!" politic. We should make it more difficult for ppl. out of Africa for getting asylum here. We actually want MORE Syrians/Iraqis but LESS Eritreans/Ghanaese (etc.) because this group is coming because of unrealistic imaginations of Germany/Europe. They are leaving their home mostly because of economical problems. The first group comes because of civil war, suppression and murderers (IS) dominates in their country.
Even here I generalized, because in Africa are tons of civil wars (more found in local media) going on too...
So yeah to make it short: I appreciate when ppl. come because war dominates at home, I disagree with giving asylum to ppl. that are just leaving because of the bad economic situation in their original country.
(sry guys if sth. is hard to understand for you. Not tooo easy for me to debate about current political happenings when you cant write in your mother tongue :/ )
californiagrownSo you believe the vast majority of Arabs and Persians are evil, rabid dogs? Or is it all Muslims? Or must they be a combination of the two to qualify?
You have a strong dislike for organized religon, right? What does your moral conscience say we should do to help the innocent folks fleeing wars and famine? Or should we choose to not help?
You have a habit of misreading what I write.
Afghans, and Afghan men in particular, have a horrible culture based in Islamic sharia, and backwards tribal practices derived from sharia.
As a matter of course, Afghans routinely practice rape of children (especially young boys), something that is culturally acceptable. They also practice the most atrocious violence against women, again, culturally acceptable in Afghan culture.
Now, with all these men who practice this ugly culture "fleeing war and famine" into Europe, what leads you to believe that they will abandon the culture and religion that they come from?
The ones who practice these mainstays of Afghan culture, yes they are rabid dogs, waiting for their chance to get their hands on some defenseless European girl.
Kind of like the Pakistani rape gangs in the UK that target and rape 10-14 year old British girls in Rotherham, and now Rochdale, and who knows where else. Fucking disgusting people, from a disgusting culture.
