Big or Small Name Ski Brands

Doesn't really matter if they are a big or small company. Its really about quality (which small companies tend to be better because they are usually handmade or more taken care of better), price range, and what skis they offer. I also picked up some da nollies and I'm stoked for em.

I just really think people like to see something outside of the norm, and when it performs better than the mainstream people will drift to the smaller companies. I personally think HG, Revision, and Batalla kill it and will be copping a smaller brand as my next skis

Smaller companies usually have better quality products, but are more pricey than the cooperate ski names (Line, k2 ect). Its always cool to support a small ski company tho :)

Can't beat the customer service that comes along with most smaller companies!

.complexI just really think people like to see something outside of the norm, and when it performs better than the mainstream people will drift to the smaller companies. I personally think HG, Revision, and Batalla kill it and will be copping a smaller brand as my next skis

big things are coming from Batalla. Dean Berco slays

small brands are generally higher quality but more expensive. that doesn't mean they make the skis that ski the best, but it does mean that the skis are generally more durable and ski with a more consistently good feel from model to model as each material is likely hand picked.

big brands are generally cheaper as they sell far more stock and these companies tend to use cheaper materials for a higher payback on each pair. that being said they are popular for a reason and they tend to make the skis that are more innovative.

in all honesty i think that atomic makes the best non park skis on the market right now and they are a huge brand. but that doesn't mean that next year it will be a small company making the best of the best both are good but i think its best to just demo and choose the skis that fit your riding the best

I like smaller brands better, because they actually put passion into their work. Big brands are just in it for the money, and they tend to make the most boring products available.

THEDIRTYBUBBLEI like smaller brands better, because they actually put passion into their work. Big brands are just in it for the money, and they tend to make the most boring products available.

Do you really believe this or are you just trolling?

just because a brand is bigger does not mean the actual people working for them are any less committed. Do you really think onenerdykid is just making boots for te money. No of course not. Sure a big brand may make more money but this usually translates to cheaper products which is good for the consumer. A big brand can buy a ton of high quality materials and becuae they order big they get the same materials for cheaper then the small guys which in turn translates to better deals to the end user.

Now ow that is not to say smaller brands don't make awesome skis I loved my on3p's and run last season but overall my fav skis are generally all still from the bigger brands.

buy a ski because it's what you want not because a certai brand made it.

tomPietrowskiDo you really believe this or are you just trolling?

just because a brand is bigger does not mean the actual people working for them are any less committed. Do you really think onenerdykid is just making boots for te money. No of course not. Sure a big brand may make more money but this usually translates to cheaper products which is good for the consumer. A big brand can buy a ton of high quality materials and becuae they order big they get the same materials for cheaper then the small guys which in turn translates to better deals to the end user.

Now ow that is not to say smaller brands don't make awesome skis I loved my on3p's and run last season but overall my fav skis are generally all still from the bigger brands.

buy a ski because it's what you want not because a certai brand made it.

I know what I said is wrong on many levels. It's late at night, and I remembered how many bad experiences I've had with big brands. Made me very salty.

Since I started at Atomic, I've always found it interesting how our business is viewed by the ski industry and also by the actual corporate world. Because of our size, we tend to be viewed by members of the ski industry as corporate, only in it for the money, yadda yadda yadda. But when real corporations look at us, they see a bunch of dirty hippies & farmers who don't understand the business world at all. It's really pretty funny.

I honestly didn't know much about our ski factory until I moved here and was able to hang out in the ski factory and talk with our ski nerds and builders. For starters, we own the factory and that's a huge plus since we don't have to pay any licensing fees or other costs to use someone else's space, tools, etc. (this is definitely one of the ways in which we can keep our prices down). Owning our own factory also allows us to control every single aspect of the ski to result in exactly what we want (there's no ordering pre-made pieces, except for some of the edges but even those are mainly made by us) and we make everything in-house from raw materials. We have only enough raw material in house to last 4 days and it stays in a temperature & humidity controlled area. This means that all of the materials are as fresh and consistent as they can be- nothing sits around getting weird. And we buy so much of these raw materials over the course of a year, that we have really great pricing on the materials. For example, all of our adult skis (including the Infamous) use 7000-series P-tex bases and that's a pretty rad value story.

Not only do we make all of the parts of the ski in house but also all of the machinery (except some of the 5-axis lathes that we need to buy from a lathe manufacturer) and all of the molds. We have patented manufacturing processes and procedures that allow us to build skis in ways that others simply can't, which also helps you the end consumer get the highest quality for the lowest price possible. Lastly, all silkscreens and sublimations for graphics are made here in house as well.

When the skis themselves are made they are most often made in singles or pairs, depending on the construction. The skis are laid up entirely by hand, machine tuned (obviously), finished by hand, and prepped by hand. Despite being the world's largest ski supplier, things are made just the same way as they always have been- by hand. Each ski is flex tested, weighed, and then paired with its ideal mate. That means when you pick up a pair of Atomic skis in a shop, they literally belong together.

Here is a little video from a couple of years ago showing how one of our skis is built. Yes, it's a race ski and the music is a bit cheesy, but it does show how much hands-on is part of our ski building process.

https://www.newschoolers.com/watch

the reality is that even most small brands are pressed in the same factories as those by most larger brands, usually even in factories owned by the larger brands themselves

as such, the quality rarely differs so significantly. What might differ is customer service, brand image and overall support that brand provides back to the sport

hmmm... let's try that again

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/787567/ATOMIC---HANDMADE-IN-AUSTRIA

support the smaller companies who put in work and give back to skiing. most likely they need every penny so support the real so they keep doing what they do.

Any small brand who doesn't build their own ski's is just a marketing company in my book. And not ALL small manufacturers are necessarily building a good quality product. I choose to support a smaller company like ON3P because of how they have grown their business. They are members of the community who built a following from the ground up. Instead of hiring someone else to build their ski's and busting through the door demanding that everyone look at them. And their product is relevant and reliable.

That being said I like Line for consistently delivering a 100'ish ski that meets my needs perfectly as a daily driver. I also have had great times on some Atomic's.

I buy the ski that fits my needs. As much as I have tried, it's hard to MAKE a ski fit your needs just to support a specific brand.

Been riding Surface pretty much since they came out...love them, great prices to be had off season, product quality, etc.

People could consider them "big" now. Thats good for them. Shows they are profitable, moving forward, growing.

brov1small brands are generally higher quality but more expensive. that doesn't mean they make the skis that ski the best, but it does mean that the skis are generally more durable and ski with a more consistently good feel from model to model as each material is likely hand picked.

big brands are generally cheaper as they sell far more stock and these companies tend to use cheaper materials for a higher payback on each pair. that being said they are popular for a reason and they tend to make the skis that are more innovative.

in all honesty i think that atomic makes the best non park skis on the market right now and they are a huge brand. but that doesn't mean that next year it will be a small company making the best of the best both are good but i think its best to just demo and choose the skis that fit your riding the best

My love for small companies aside (I ski a ON3P Jeffery 114) I would not say that this is necessarily the case. While small companies are more able to keep their quality assurance programs on lock due to the small production runs all this really means is that all their skis will ski the same (hopefully). The engineering prowess and time spent working out the kinks at a place like K2 or Atomic is far greater than their counterparts on the boutique scene. Not saying small companies cant make a sick ski just that they have less resources to figure out what makes the perfect combination of materials and engineering.

I actually prefer the larger companies. I've been riding K2 for a number of years now. One of the things I really like about these larger companies, is that they have the resources to put in a large amount of R&D and testing into their products. I feel like they are able to find out what works and what doesn't in skis, and are able to provide a ski that will hold up better and longer. A lot of smaller companies are trying new materials, methods, and designs that are unproven. Part of this is because they need to do something to "stick out" in the industry, part of it is because they don't have that knowledge from decades and decades of ski design and manufacturing.

There are great small brands.
There are shitty small brands.

There are great big brands.
There are shitty big brands.

Situation isn't black and white. Both small & big brands contribute to the industry in different ways and skiing is better for it.

Support the right brands, big or small, and skiing will continue to have a bright future.

words of wisdom ^^

EggsOverSteezyMy love for small companies aside (I ski a ON3P Jeffery 114) I would not say that this is necessarily the case. While small companies are more able to keep their quality assurance programs on lock due to the small production runs all this really means is that all their skis will ski the same (hopefully). The engineering prowess and time spent working out the kinks at a place like K2 or Atomic is far greater than their counterparts on the boutique scene. Not saying small companies cant make a sick ski just that they have less resources to figure out what makes the perfect combination of materials and engineering.

i also have a jeffery 114 and i love it

Shaggy's copper country skis are great. Made by yoopers.

jblaskiI actually prefer the larger companies. I've been riding K2 for a number of years now. One of the things I really like about these larger companies, is that they have the resources to put in a large amount of R&D and testing into their products. I feel like they are able to find out what works and what doesn't in skis, and are able to provide a ski that will hold up better and longer. A lot of smaller companies are trying new materials, methods, and designs that are unproven. Part of this is because they need to do something to "stick out" in the industry, part of it is because they don't have that knowledge from decades and decades of ski design and manufacturing.

Inversely, large companies are often stuck in a rut and create no new innovation. Look at Atomic for instance, quality skis, but not until Surface and DPS had proven side to side rocker was useful did they adopt it (noticeably they did this in the same time frame of signing Nick McNutt from Surface...). While smaller brands may not have years of building race skis under their belts, most are in touch pretty well with exactly what the consumer wants much quicker than the big guys. Also, the reason they survive is because they actually are better, whether it's quality, performance or durability. They have to prove themselves and don't view freesking as just a section of their market. It IS their market and its make or break for them. Compare Filthy Riches to Suspects.. seems blatant to me who cares more about the product they're pushing

K-Dot.Compare Filthy Riches to Suspects.. seems blatant to me who cares more about the product they're pushing

True. Suspects have been on the top of the biggest events for years. They have helped riders like Sammy progress to where he is now.

few skis have been so visable in the comp scene over the years so yes your right salomon made a huge contribution. Or was that not the point you were making?

Swandog7Doesn't really matter if they are a big or small company. Its really about quality (which small companies tend to be better because they are usually handmade or more taken care of better).

This attitude is partially to blame for the decline of the USA as a manufacturing leader globally.

Do you really, honestly think that the quality and consistency of a hand-made product is going to exceed that of something built primarily by incredibly precise machines?

While there are small brands turning out some exceptionally good products, with quality close enough to the major brands to not really matter, to suggest that a hand-made small-volume product is better made than a mass produced one is completely and utterly false.

rozboonThis attitude is partially to blame for the decline of the USA as a manufacturing leader globally.

Do you really, honestly think that the quality and consistency of a hand-made product is going to exceed that of something built primarily by incredibly precise machines?

While there are small brands turning out some exceptionally good products, with quality close enough to the major brands to not really matter, to suggest that a hand-made small-volume product is better made than a mass produced one is completely and utterly false.

Hand made skis are assisted by machines. It's no coincidence that typically hand made skis like ON3P and Moment typically last longer and are being more recommended that companies like Line Skis. Not saying those companies don't make great skis or non handmade companies aren't durable but generally companies thst so make them handmade seem to have better durabikity and part of thst is they are made in the states/Canada and not somewhere like China

When you buy from a small brand, you are buying from a fellow ski bum.

Swandog7Hand made skis are assisted by machines. It's no coincidence that typically hand made skis like ON3P and Moment typically last longer and are being more recommended that companies like Line Skis. Not saying those companies don't make great skis or non handmade companies aren't durable but generally companies thst so make them handmade seem to have better durabikity and part of thst is they are made in the states/Canada and not somewhere like China

This is sophistry and pure speculation.
With all due respect to ON3P, and I do have a lot of respect for them in particular, on a percentage basis who do you think has more failed skis?

And if you think that a product is inherently better made if it comes out of North America you are completely deluded.
Chinese robots don't get hungover and make up a shit batch of epoxy.

rozboonThis attitude is partially to blame for the decline of the USA as a manufacturing leader globally.

Do you really, honestly think that the quality and consistency of a hand-made product is going to exceed that of something built primarily by incredibly precise machines?

While there are small brands turning out some exceptionally good products, with quality close enough to the major brands to not really matter, to suggest that a hand-made small-volume product is better made than a mass produced one is completely and utterly false.

Here is my long winded, biased context for these comments as I have experienced them building a indie ski brand from within the past 7 years, and how they relate in particular to ON3P. I would argue that there are a select few small manufacturers who are putting on a product on the level of the majors. Not saying better, but without question in the same ballpark. I easily see as many blems come out of major ski factories as I do the minor ski factories. I spent time every year walking around SIA checking out other companies show skis and find all sorts of blems, cosmetic issues, skis with materials visibly showing incorrect pressure, mostly by some of the largest ski companies out there. And these are show skis - meant to look good and represent your best.

Every Time I am in a ski shop? Same thing.

Building skis is hard, whether it is one pair in your garage or 1000 day in a mega factory. Lots of places where a minor thing going wrong will ruin a ski.

Also, contest matters here. What are we defining as handmade? Some guy with a router in a garage factory (aka ON3P when I was in a college garage in Tacoma)? No question.

At a real ski factory though? If it is a good ski factory, steps are in place to standardize and control the production, regardless of the size of production. Many of the precise, computer controlled processes of the big brands are used by the small. All the cores at Atomic/Rossi/Volkl/Etc are done on a CNC. Guess what...same at ON3P, Moment, Praxis, etc. Our CNC tolerance here is under 0.004", which I am sure is comparable to what the megafactories use.

Our edge treatment process? Automated.
Epoxy mixing and dispensing? Automated.
Sidewall flame treatment? Automated.
Sidewall production? CNC.
Core production? CNC.

Are their machines larger and capable of much more volume in less time as ours? Absolutely. But they are building more skis per day than we do in a month, so the capacity isn't what we need. It's the tolerance and consistency.

Furthermore, MUCH of the process in both large and small factories is done by hand.

Layup? Hand.
Band Saw to remove flash (excess material post layup)? Hand.
Deflash to clean ski? Hand.
Final QC? Hand.

One difference we have, that I strongly believe favors ON3P is that we don't use mega-lines of automated ski grinders to flatten and tune are skis. I see so many issues, both in flatness and consistency, from major factories. Some are pretty consistent, but there are a few that I see constant issues with. We've invested well into the 6 figures in our finishing equipment to give us the machine capacity to finish skis the right way. One of our biggest labor requirements (both in time and skill) is a long, very labor intensive finishing process where ski flatness is checked at 4 different stations and ski structure and consistency is paramount. Each ski is looked at individually. Our standard work cycle time for base finishing is much higher than larger companies because I believe our skis, at our volume, should leave the factory with a raceroom level base finish. That doesn't matter to the masses, but it matters to us and our customers and 100 times out of 100 I would put us base finish up against any ski pulled from a ski shop wall. Euro raceroom ski builders have a huge amount of respect from me in regards to both build and base finish, but besides that, I don't see anyone putting out a ski as well finished as we are (and we are told as such by other brands every year). This, again, doesn't really matter to a lot of people, but it does to me.

Those tooling marks from the sidewall bevel? You'll never see those on an ON3P, as we take the time to not only remove them, but then put the ski through a buffing process to ensure the sidewall is as smooth and well finished as any I've seen. Not reason to remove those are most megafactories because most people don't know or don't care.

Building good skis is about developing a properly maintained and controlled production line, training the right people in the right way to build skis, and upholding those standards for every ski.

Finding the right people to do the building is hard. We're small. We have 8 people on the floor building our skis. Most have been here for years. Finding the right person to bring in who can uphold the standards we've set is probably one of the more difficult challenges we face.

rozboonThis is sophistry and pure speculation.
With all due respect to ON3P, and I do have a lot of respect for them in particular, on a percentage basis who do you think has more failed skis?

And if you think that a product is inherently better made if it comes out of North America you are completely deluded.
Chinese robots don't get hungover and make up a shit batch of epoxy.

I have no idea the warranty/fail rates of other factories, but our warranty rate is below 1% each year the past 5 years. Blem rate is about the same, and most of the time, it is cosmetic - a scratch in the base, a slightly shifted topsheet - resulting in the ski being designated as a demo. This year, I think we've had to pull only 7-8 skis from our entire production run for blems that were beyond the demo quality (I know because our Sales Mng just reviewed them to decide what needed to be done to them). As I said, I don't know the majors warranty rates, but I cannot image they are much better than >1% annually.

As for Chinese Robots.....I get it. More automation there. Only, many, many of the ski building processes as stated above are still done by hand. In regards to epoxy, hungover workers don't mix our epoxy here at ON3P. A machine does it. That Chinese "robot" laying up the ski is still going to be a person capable of the same issues someone here is capable of. Here, too, everyone knows that even one screw up is unacceptable. They happen, for sure, but here the margin of error for consequences is much smaller. I was recently talking to someone running a Chinese factory that was blemming 70 pairs PER DAY. If that were us, we would be out of business in a couple weeks. The margin of error for small brands is small. The margins are shit, the wages are shit, we compete with other brands whose cost of goods is literally 1/2 ours (including several indies who don't make their own skis), and we have to sell at the same price point. People building skis (the right way) for a living are doing it because skiing is better for it.

At ON3P, quality is our brand. If someone put a batch of skis through with bad epoxy that made it out the door, they would very quickly find themselves without a job and the damage to our brand is literally unbearable for me to even consider. Luckily, we have the right people and the right manufacturing management in place to ensure that doesn't happen.

We run a ski factory - not a garage shop - with tens of thousands of dollars in materials moving through the factory every couple weeks. Showing up hungover and fucking off is not the name of the game. If it was, we wouldn't be around.

I'll be the first one to say that the skis we made when we first got started weren't on the level to compete with the Atomic/Volkl/K2s of the world. Fully agree there and honestly, they sort of make me cringe now. But, we've worked hard to get where we are, and now I have no qualms putting our skis head to head against them in both construction and finish. That is to say, our quality has improved and will continue to improve, but it was acquired over time and I'm not delusional in thinking we were on the level right out of the gate.

I completely agree with the statement that it is wrong to state that just because something is made in America it is better. I agree with that 100%. There are great overseas factories.

There are also indie companies in the states that just pain me...literally....ruin my day when I see their skis because they give hard working, qualified indies who give a shit and know what they are doing a bad name by association. It is hard, in that they have largely the same dream I have and I think it is good for skiing to have variety, but I wouldn't be doing this if the skis couldn't back that dream up.

I can attest that entering the retail world as an indie was extremely difficult because a lot of the indies before us showed up and shit the bed in construction and finish.

In our case, we run our own factory, with a production process and production line we developed, building a product that is completely our own. When your ski has an issue, you can blame us directly because it was one of 8 of us that screwed up in the process. When it comes to indies who build their own skis, you need to judge each brand individually because they are all totally their own brand.

Lastly....the big vs small argument is sort of a ridiculous premise from the get go. Where would skiing be without K2/Atomic/Rossi/Volkl/etc?

Nowhere. Skiing needs these larger strong brands to help drive the sport forward. They get the masses involved, they help ensure that skiing has a sustainable future, and they contribute an untold amount to the industry.

The premise that the large brands don't care about skiing just isn't true. Do I think there are large brands that lack creativity or boldness? Are there large brands whose quality is lacking a bit? Absolutely, but the vast majority of people in the ski industry, regardless of company, are in it because they are skiers and want to be around the sport they love.

So, I don't know what you will take from that. The point really is...there are small brands that do know what they are doing and will continue to go head to head with the mega factories in both finish and quality. Skiing NEEDS both large and small brands to succeed. They feed off each other, they both love skiing, and skiing's long term future is better with both around.

That has to be one of the top posts on NS, ever. Your passion for what you do is absolutely tangible.

tomPietrowskiTrue. Suspects have been on the top of the biggest events for years. They have helped riders like Sammy progress to where he is now.

few skis have been so visable in the comp scene over the years so yes your right salomon made a huge contribution. Or was that not the point you were making?

That's exactly the point I was making. The brand was more focused on the marketing of the ski and less focused on the actual ski. This is a common theme for larger brands, making a ski that is amazing but only for the first while you have it. Dare I mention the Infamous? Durability isn't as big of a concern for athletes who get free skis...

K-Dot.That's exactly the point I was making. The brand was more focused on the marketing of the ski and less focused on the actual ski. This is a common theme for larger brands, making a ski that is amazing but only for the first while you have it. Dare I mention the Infamous? Durability isn't as big of a concern for athletes who get free skis...

The suspect really wa not a bad ski at all by the end of it's life. It was updated and by the end was pretty awesome.

I was just trolling you really but it's like iggy said above the industry needs both big and small brands. The bigger brands tend to get people into the sport with all there exposure and marketing but then the smaller brands offer somthing differnt for those pepole who are already in the sport.

we need both and they each do good for the sport I their own way.

tomPietrowskiThe suspect really wa not a bad ski at all by the end of it's life. It was updated and by the end was pretty awesome.

I was just trolling you really but it's like iggy said above the industry needs both big and small brands. The bigger brands tend to get people into the sport with all there exposure and marketing but then the smaller brands offer somthing differnt for those pepole who are already in the sport.

we need both and they each do good for the sport I their own way.

Agreed m8

YoungGun.Shaggy's copper country skis are great. Made by yoopers.

The factory is in Boyne Falls, that's about as far from the UP as you can get haha... Regardless they do make some interesting looking stuff, but I'd be very hard pressed to actually buy a pair. I've always thought that their bases look really, really low quality. I rode my friends Tubby's and though they rode like 2x4's haha, so stiff and unresponsive.

THEDIRTYBUBBLEI like smaller brands better, because they actually put passion into their work. Big brands are just in it for the money, and they tend to make the most boring products available.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ain't nobody getting rich in this industry building skis. It doesn't matter if you work for ON3P or Atomic, the only reason you do this is because you love skiing. It doesn't matter if you are talking to the guys who work at Atomic, K2, Rossignol, Blizzard, Salomon ON3P, Praxis, or whomever really, they all love and live skiing.