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Would The World Be Better Off Without Religion?

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onenerdykid
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We've talked about the existence of God, about whether or not it is possible to know this. But what about asking a more pragmatic question: Would the world be better off without religion?

Religion has without a doubt given positive meaning to millions of peoples' lives, given them hope, and given them instructions for how to live and interact with their fellow humans. But, religion has also been the cause of incredible amounts of death, suffering, violence, oppression, suppression, sexism, and homophobia. Moreover, we know that ethics/morality can and does exist independently from religion, which means people can do good things without religion. So given all of this, it is a very interesting question to ask.

While it is interesting, it is not to be confused with questioning the existence of God, as they are two separate topics. For example, one can believe in God yet not be religious. This question instead is about the amount of good versus the amount of bad that religion causes.

If you have the time, watch this highly interesting debate (whose panelists include the great, great grandson of Charles Darwin) from Intelligence Squared:

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/786465/The-World-Would-Be-Better-Off-Without-Religion-Intelligence-Squared-U-S-

So NS, what do you think?
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Oct 8 2015 10:44AM
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californiagrown
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onenerdykidYour statement here just proves to me that you haven't read and/or understood any of the main ethical philosophies because their philosophies prevent this kind of shit from being justified. Basically all of them from Plato, to Aristotle, to Kant, to Mill all value human equality, freedom, justice, fairness, truthfulness, etc without any of the barbaric nonsense that accompanies the religious moral teachings. What you propose could only happen if such a charismatic leader misinterpreted, misunderstood, or grossly/purposefully twisted the meaning and in doing so deviated from the philosophy.


Which is the same thing that happened with religon. The message has been mutated to fit the charismatic leader's personal goals.
Oct 10 2015 1:32PM
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californiagrown
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Granite_StateProof?


As for you, basic reading comprehension answers your question.
Oct 10 2015 1:33PM
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Charlie_Kelly
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californiagrownAs for you, basic reading comprehension answers your question.


Great answer!

Sorry I'm not about to sift through all your posts in this thread. I'm just not that interested. But you literally said they were written by god in the post I quoted so I think my comprehension is on point.
Oct 10 2015 2:14PM
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onenerdykid
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californiagrownWhich is the same thing that happened with religon. The message has been mutated to fit the charismatic leader's personal goals.


Not remotely the same. There is nothing about any moral philosophy that seeks to divide people, oppress women, and punish those who have a different opinion (aside from those who break the law, of course). Whereas in religion, you see this constantly and it is not due to misinterpretation. It's blatantly written that its followers should do it.

There are literally hundreds of passages from religious text that not only justify violence but inspire their followers to commit it. The Qur'an is the easiest example to pull from and these are hardly able to be misinterpreted or twisted to fit a charismatic leader's goals:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone."

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)


Likewise, the Bible itself is full of obvious passages that inspire people towards hatred and killing:

Deuteronomy 3:3-6 - So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city.

Joshua 8:24-26 - When the Israelite army finished chasing and killing all the men of Ai in the open fields, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai, including men and women, was wiped out that day—12,000 in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed.

Hosea 13:16 - Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.


I mean, it's too easy to find these verses, and I didn't even list verses about rape or slavery. Apologists can argue all they want about context, misinterpretation, and figurative literary tools, but the fact of the matter is these religions are obviously divisive, violent, and inspire their followers to go down these paths. Moderately religious people ignore such passages, as they are fully right to do so. But it just demonstrates the need for reason and common sense to put religion in check.
Oct 10 2015 2:17PM
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Charlie_Kelly
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Also responding to your post about how more religious people donate to charity than atheists (though Im assuming you meant non-religious people). Bill Gates alone has donated over $28 billion to charitable organizations and is certainly not religious. I wonder if religious donations in the U.S. even come close to that...
Oct 10 2015 2:17PM
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californiagrown
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Granite_StateGreat answer!

Sorry I'm not about to sift through all your posts in this thread. I'm just not that interested. But you literally said they were written by god in the post I quoted so I think my comprehension is on point.


Context is important...
Oct 10 2015 3:23PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownThe 10 commandments were not transcribed, there were literally written by God. Those are the "truest" accounts of God's word.


Basically, it sounds to me like you think islam is the problem. You have moved away from hating on Christianity, and havnt mentioned Judaism, Hindu, or any other religions. Is that true?


Current mainstream Islam in many country today promote a motherload of bad ideas. As all religious beliefs have over the course of humanity.
Oct 10 2015 3:30PM
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californiagrown
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nocturnalCurrent mainstream Islam in many country today promote a motherload of bad ideas. As all religious beliefs have over the course of humanity.


Really? What bad ideas have lutherans pushed?
Oct 10 2015 3:34PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownReally? What bad ideas have lutherans pushed?


Really all are 100% of them for gay marriage?
Oct 10 2015 4:03PM
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onenerdykid
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californiagrownReally? What bad ideas have lutherans pushed?


Aside from the general religious actions that we've already named & discussed (oppression of women, divisiveness, placing faith over reason, etc), Lutheranism maintains that "by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone" so that Scripture alone is the ultimate guide for faith and salvation. So those quotes I posted above are undoubtedly true in the eyes of a Lutheran. Whether they act on it or not is up to the individual, but they are not renounced by the Lutheran faith.

Martin Luther himself was an anti-Semite and wrote at length about his disgust for Jews. His writings were so powerful that Nazi Germany quoted his writings ad nauseam in the vast majority of the propaganda used in the Third Reich. Many Protestant churches in Germany approved of Jews wearing the yellow badge and supported this because Luther himself wanted preventative measures taken against the Jews and their expulsion from Germany. So yeah, if you don't consider the horrible things that Nazi Germany did to be "bad ideas" then I guess you're right.

You might also want to ignore all of the wars and conflict that occurred due to the Protestant Reformation. The struggle that existed between Protestants and Catholics caused undeniable turmoil, murder, execution, and revocation of rights all because of differences in belief that were not tolerated.

This is what modern faith loves to sweep under the rug and ignore, but at religion's core is a definite and obvious insistence for its followers to claim that "we are right, you are wrong and you will be punished for your impiety". Modern conscious tells us to be tolerant, not the religions themselves.
Oct 11 2015 6:12AM
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onenerdykid
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onenerdykidModern conscious tells us to be tolerant, not the religions themselves.


*conscience, not conscious.
Oct 11 2015 6:16AM
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Sparta
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californiagrownIt was in response to homeboy saying that the muhammeds texts were the least filtered version of God's word.


It seems like every religion claims this though, which is slightly problematic...
Oct 12 2015 4:40PM
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californiagrown
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SpartaIt seems like every religion claims this though, which is slightly problematic...


Why is that problematic? Religon is based on faith, not facts.
Oct 12 2015 4:52PM
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Sparta
Posts: 226 - Karma: 313
californiagrownWhy is that problematic? Religon is based on faith, not facts.


That sounds great in theory but the faithful take it as absolute truth, as evidenced by one faith's disdain of another simply because they hold their faith to be the right one so all others are false.
Oct 12 2015 5:01PM
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californiagrown
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SpartaThat sounds great in theory but the faithful take it as absolute truth, as evidenced by one faith's disdain of another simply because they hold their faith to be the right one so all others are false.

Kinda like you have obvious disdain for those of faith?
Oct 12 2015 6:10PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownReally? What bad ideas have lutherans pushed?


Also that most religions believe their superior because when they die they go to heaven and everyone else goes to hell. You dont see a problem with that? I'm waiting for your response though you haven't made a very good case.
Oct 12 2015 6:56PM
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S.J.W
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nocturnalAlso that most religions believe their superior because when they die they go to heaven and everyone else goes to hell. You dont see a problem with that? I'm waiting for your response though you haven't made a very good case.


Kinda like how atheists think they're superior because of science. How business students they're super perior over art students, how snowboarders think they're superior over skiers, etc,etc. People will always use anything to gain a sense of superiority over someone.
Oct 12 2015 7:11PM
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deleted5
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S.J.WKinda like how atheists think they're superior because of science. How business students they're super perior over art students, how snowboarders think they're superior over skiers, etc,etc. People will always use anything to gain a sense of superiority over someone.


Not even remotely, but good try. One belief advances humanity, and the other is selfish and only done for yourself. I dont think ill be set for an eternity in paradice while everyone else suffers for an eternity. I think we are all the same once we die no matter shat yoy belive. Planes fly computers compute and medicine heals. If you were choking would you want me to pray or perform the Heimlich maneuver?
Oct 12 2015 7:24PM
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californiagrown
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nocturnalAlso that most religions believe their superior because when they die they go to heaven and everyone else goes to hell. You dont see a problem with that? I'm waiting for your response though you haven't made a very good case.

That's cause unless I agree with you, you think its a bad answer.

People look down on people who are different. Always have and IMO, always will. If that's your problem with religon you should have the same problem with sports teams, clothing choice, language, diet, etc.
Oct 12 2015 7:24PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownThat's cause unless I agree with you, you think its a bad answer.

People look down on people who are different. Always have and IMO, always will. If that's your problem with religon you should have the same problem with sports teams, clothing choice, language, diet, etc.


Religon impose their beliefs and effect my life. So no its very diffrent from a sports team also your bullshit anwser of o they donate money. I have a family member who started two charities and gave close to half a billion after he died. I know familys on wallstreet who host yearly competitions to see who can give the most money to charity and use it for a tax write off we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year between them. What has your religon family done lately? That's your one defense that they donate money? That doesn't outweigh all the bad it's caused.
Oct 12 2015 7:29PM
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S.J.W
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nocturnalNot even remotely, but good try. One belief advances humanity, and the other is selfish and only done for yourself. I dont think ill be set for an eternity in paradice while everyone else suffers for an eternity. I think we are all the same once we die no matter shat yoy belive. Planes fly computers compute and medicine heals. If you were choking would you want me to pray or perform the Heimlich maneuver?

but you weren't referring to progressing mankind. You were referring to how group of people think they're better than another group of people based on something as trivial as religion. And if you were to take away religion, people would still find something to feel superior over someone else.
Oct 12 2015 7:29PM
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deleted5
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S.J.Wbut you weren't referring to progressing mankind. You were referring to how group of people think they're better than another group of people based on something as trivial as religion. And if you were to take away religion, people would still find something to feel superior over someone else.


So what they wouldn't stop scientific advancement or start a war over it. They think they are better by living forever and not because of the time they are on earth.
Oct 12 2015 7:31PM
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californiagrown
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nocturnalReligon impose their beliefs and effect my life. So no its very diffrent from a sports team also your bullshit anwser of o they donate money. I have a family member who started two charities and gave close to half a billion after he died. I know familys on wallstreet who host yearly competitions to see who can give the most money to charity and use it for a tax write off we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year between them. What has your religon family done lately? That's your one defense that they donate money? That doesn't outweigh all the bad it's caused.


So being rich is better than being religious.

Well, you're neither, so what does that make you?
Oct 12 2015 7:32PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownSo being rich is better than being religious.

Well, you're neither, so what does that make you?


No by your logic rich people are better because they donate more money.
Oct 12 2015 7:34PM
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S.J.W
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nocturnalSo what they wouldn't stop scientific advancement or start a war over it. They think they are better by living forever and not because of the time they are on earth.


But I am not discussing whether or not religion is good or bad. I am telling you that people will always find a way to feel better about themselves whilst putting someone else down. You seem to wanting a can of worms on a pretty simple point. If religion didn't exist people would still find a way to feel good about themselves. End of discussion.
Oct 12 2015 7:40PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
S.J.WBut I am not discussing whether or not religion is good or bad. I am telling you that people will always find a way to feel better about themselves whilst putting someone else down. You seem to wanting a can of worms on a pretty simple point. If religion didn't exist people would still find a way to feel good about themselves. End of discussion.


So what's your point? I don't give a shit what other people feel. You completely missed my point I care when actions are taken to support that belief.
Oct 12 2015 7:43PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
S.J.WBut I am not discussing whether or not religion is good or bad. I am telling you that people will always find a way to feel better about themselves whilst putting someone else down. You seem to wanting a can of worms on a pretty simple point. If religion didn't exist people would still find a way to feel good about themselves. End of discussion.


So what's your point? I don't give a shit what other people feel. You completely missed my point I care when actions are taken to support that belief.
Oct 12 2015 7:43PM
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californiagrown
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nocturnalNo by your logic rich people are better because they donate more money.


I never said that anywhere. You seem very upset in your posts.

I said that a very redeeming quality of religon is that most encourage and "peer pressure" members into charitable works they wouldn't otherwise do.

Also, using a few exceptionally ultra rich guys you very loosely know as an example to try a disprove ageneral statement I made about many billions of people is a little ridiculous. Not to mentionakes you come off as a douchey name dropper.
Oct 12 2015 7:44PM
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californiagrown
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nocturnalI don't give a shit what other people feel.


You might want to look into religon. Seems like it'd make you a better person.

If not religon, I hope you find something else.
Oct 12 2015 7:47PM
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S.J.W
Posts: 7609 - Karma: 31,185
nocturnalSo what's your point? I don't give a shit what other people feel. You completely missed my point I care when actions are taken to support that belief.


Okay maybe short little dot points are more your thing?

1. You made a point about religious people thinking they're better because of eternal life or some shit.

2. I said people will always find a way to feel superior regardless of religion or not.

3. You tried to open a can of worms on a relatively easy discussion point.

4, I told you again that people will always find a way to feel superior, regardless of religion.

5. You still don't understand my point even though I explained it to you twice.

6. ?????????

7. You realise what I was trying to say and stop quoting me on some next level dumb shit

8. I go to bed because I'm tired
Oct 12 2015 7:48PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownI never said that anywhere. You seem very upset in your posts.

I said that a very redeeming quality of religon is that most encourage and "peer pressure" members into charitable works they wouldn't otherwise do.

Also, using a few exceptionally ultra rich guys you very loosely know as an example to try a disprove ageneral statement I made about many billions of people is a little ridiculous. Not to mentionakes you come off as a douchey name dropper.


Yes, I loosely know my family. You came into a thread and only wrote the positive point is that as a peer pressure people to donate money therefore religon is good. You do not bring up negative effects.
Oct 12 2015 7:50PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
S.J.WOkay maybe short little dot points are more your thing?

1. You made a point about religious people thinking they're better because of eternal life or some shit.

2. I said people will always find a way to feel superior regardless of religion or not.

3. You tried to open a can of worms on a relatively easy discussion point.

4, I told you again that people will always find a way to feel superior, regardless of religion.

5. You still don't understand my point even though I explained it to you twice.

6. ?????????

7. You realise what I was trying to say and stop quoting me on some next level dumb shit

8. I go to bed because I'm tired


Yes wars and beliefs and laws are made because people think there god is right and they are superior. I don't understand what you're not getting. I do not care if an individual feels superior to me.
Oct 12 2015 7:53PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
nocturnalYou dont see a problem with that?


S.J.Wbut you weren't referring to progressing mankind. You were referring to how group of people think they're better than another group of people based on something as trivial as religion. And if you were to take away religion, people would still find something to feel superior over someone else.


I get it now, you missed this sentence and what it implied.
Oct 12 2015 7:56PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalYes, I loosely know my family. You came into a thread and only wrote the positive point is that as a peer pressure people to donate money therefore religon is good. You do not bring up negative effects.


Yes. That is because I believe those negative things it can bring about are not inherently the fault of religon, bit of man. Man will always find a reason to shit on, kill, and subjucate that which is different.

The solution isn't ending religon, its ending differences. And I think differences are great. How bout you?

Nice name drop again, btw. You don't care about people's feelings, and from from an ultra rich family. You're not giving athiests a great image here haha
Oct 12 2015 8:05PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
californiagrownYes. That is because I believe those negative things it can bring about are not inherently the fault of religon, bit of man. Man will always find a reason to shit on, kill, and subjucate that which is different.

The solution isn't ending religon, its ending differences. And I think differences are great. How bout you?

Nice name drop again, btw. You don't care about people's feelings, and from from an ultra rich family. You're not giving athiests a great image here haha


So you're telling me that the Crusades or Israel and Palestine have nothing to do with religion and it's just because of peoples differences? You're wrong, in some aspects I'm sure you're right but to make a ridiculous generalization of every situation surely you're not even that stupid. You're also not addressing how the church used to kill and imprison people who would speak out against it, or try to push scientific truth that turned out to be correct. No amount of charitable donations will make up for that.
Oct 12 2015 8:13PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
californiagrownYou might want to look into religon. Seems like it'd make you a better person.

If not religon, I hope you find something else.


Also you're putting words in my mouth, in that post we were talking about people feeling superior, and I don't care what an individual feels anybody can have any feeling they want its not my business as long as they don't impose their beliefs on me from a position of authority, and I'm not going to speak on a moral authority of what people can feel or do. Some religious people would disagree with me on that like Kim Davis or rick Santorum but hey i bet they tide 10% so thats ok. That's my point not hurt others people's feelings because it doesn't matter.
Oct 12 2015 8:22PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalSo you're telling me that the Crusades or Israel and Palestine have nothing to do with religion and it's just because of peoples differences? You're wrong, in some aspects I'm sure you're right but to make a ridiculous generalization of every situation surely you're not even that stupid. You're also not addressing how the church used to kill and imprison people who would speak out against it, or try to push scientific truth that turned out to be correct. No amount of charitable donations will make up for that.

What I said went right over your head. Any one else care to try and explain?
Oct 12 2015 8:22PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
californiagrownWhat I said went right over your head. Any one else care to try and explain?


Man is inherently evil man will always kill with or without religion I 100% understand what you're trying to say and I disagree with you.
Oct 12 2015 8:28PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalAlso you're putting words in my mouth, in that post we were talking about people feeling superior, and I don't care what an individual feels anybody can have any feeling they want its not my business as long as they don't impose their beliefs on me from a position of authority, and I'm not going to speak on a moral authority of what people can feel or do. Some religious people would disagree with me on that like Kim Davis or rick Santorum but hey i bet they tide 10% so thats ok. That's my point not hurt others people's feelings because it doesn't matter.


What if my morals happen to line up with religious ethics? Should o not be allowed to fight for a government that reflects my morals and beliefs?
Oct 12 2015 8:35PM
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deleted5
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californiagrownWhat if my morals happen to line up with religious ethics? Should o not be allowed to fight for a government that reflects my morals and beliefs?


If it comes from wanting to better people and they country yes, but even then people get it wrong all the time. If its coming only from the though of pleasing your god so you and many others can go to heaven, then I disagree with how and where your thinking is coming from.
Oct 12 2015 8:38PM
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FrenchFry
Posts: 969 - Karma: 3,432
I am i guess you what could say against religion. But saying religion causes war I don't really agree with that. I think it all boils down to money when it comes to war.
Oct 12 2015 8:54PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalIf it comes from wanting to better people and they country yes, but even then people get it wrong all the time. If its coming only from the though of pleasing your god so you and many others can go to heaven, then I disagree with how and where your thinking is coming from.


Lol I thought you don't care how people feel, only their actions?
Oct 12 2015 10:24PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
californiagrownLol I thought you don't care how people feel, only their actions?


Your entire fucking question was what if my religion lines up with my ethics and I want to fight for that government. That's not a thought that's an action, but nice try.
Oct 12 2015 10:37PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalYour entire fucking question was what if my religion lines up with my ethics and I want to fight for that government. That's not a thought that's an action, but nice try.


you just said that you only have an issue with the law if people enforce it for religious reasons.

Its tough when you realize that the view you hold isnt logical but is instead based upon emotion.
Oct 13 2015 12:54AM
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deleted5
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californiagrownyou just said that you only have an issue with the law if people enforce it for religious reasons.

Its tough when you realize that the view you hold isnt logical but is instead based upon emotion.


it is logical, and your now changing your argument, I want people to want to make the world and others lives better because they want there time on earth to be better. Not to please a magical man in the clouds or because an old book says so, that's being done out of fear and not genuine. Its very logical your just too set in your religious upbringing to see it.
Oct 13 2015 1:24AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalit is logical, and your now changing your argument, I want people to want to make the world and others lives better because they want there time on earth to be better. Not to please a magical man in the clouds or because an old book says so, that's being done out of fear and not genuine. Its very logical your just too set in your religious upbringing to see it.


You are like a bad politician- flip flopping opinions when you appear to be on the wrong side of an argument haha.


Lol, so the nice things that religious people do, are not genuine. Yeah, that makes sense.


and FYI, I never said i hold anything resembling religious beliefs.
Oct 13 2015 1:45AM
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deleted5
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californiagrownYou are like a bad politician- flip flopping opinions when you appear to be on the wrong side of an argument haha.


Lol, so the nice things that religious people do, are not genuine. Yeah, that makes sense.


and FYI, I never said i hold anything resembling religious beliefs.


They're not genuine at all if God came down tomorrow and told him to do the opposite, or the bible said somthing else they would do that. If God came down tomorrow and the kick all gay people out of America I don't see any practicing Christian trying to oppose that idea from their so called God, and say hey god that goes against my ethics. I've been saying that the whole time my opinion still stands. You really seem to be the one who's upset and angry I'm not flip flopping at all. People are allowed to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect me and they don't put rules in place that I have to follow. I do not think they should be allowed to have athority from there religious views.
Oct 13 2015 2:02AM
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ImNotARacist
Posts: 5136 - Karma: -1,030
Buddhism

that is all
Oct 13 2015 2:27AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
nocturnalIf God came down tomorrow and the kick all gay people out of America I don't see any practicing Christian trying to oppose that idea from their so called God, and say hey god that goes against my ethics.

Ummmm no kidding. It would also prove the existence of God and all of your viewpoints would be invalidated. Sweet logic.
Oct 13 2015 2:32AM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
californiagrownUmmmm no kidding. It would also prove the existence of God and all of your viewpoints would be invalidated. Sweet logic.


that's my point.......... some people do it for god or the idea for god not because its what they believe is right, which is why i made up a hypothetical example that would never happen. They are slaves to god and do whatever he says or thinks the way he wants them to think. that thinking down the road can cause problems for others. I guess we wont agree and you are no longer arguing but personally attacking me so I guess this is where this conversation ends.
Oct 13 2015 2:51AM
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