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ndyeThe most definitive end to a war there has ever been.
mirozIt was 70 years ago though, right?
The world has not been the same since.
VinnieFNah, the war was pretty much over already. Germany had already surrendered and the Allies had already won. There were only a few still fighting, Japan being one, and even they were already toast and were about to give in anyways. The bombs just expedited Japan's surrender by maybe a couple months, but they in no way ended the war.
ndyeilluding to
ndyeMany believe it was necessary to drop these bombs because otherwise we actually may have had to invade Japan for them to surrender. This would have lead to untold casualties on both sides. /QUOTE]
This is what I believe.
Based on the fighting on Okinawa, it became clear that we would have to fight for every inch of ground on Japan, and would have had to take all of it, fighting almost every single inhabitant - potentially killing most of them.
The bombings made it clear - we can, and will, kill every last person on Japan. We will do it from 20,000ft with relative omnipotence. You will die unable to fight back. Or you could surrender.
Our victory over Japan was as absolute as it could be. To this day there are more American military personnel in Japan than Japaneses military personnel. We re-wrote their constitution that still blocks them from having much of a military at all.
ndyeThere is another story though, that neither the bombs, nor Japans retreat to the homeland caused them to surrender, but that it was the Soviet Union declaring war on Japan which finally ended it.
ndyeAnother idea goes that they were going to surrender when they did, but we dropped the bombs because we wanted to straight flex for the Soviet Union in this pre cold war flexing grounds.
Its hard to tell and historians disagree about the true cause for the end of the war.
momsspaghettithere was a japanese scientist who accurately predicted that the US had exactly 3 nuclear devices.
the japanese knew exactly how much energy the US could produce, and knew how much energy it took to produce fissionable material (by electric centrifuges). so they estimated the US had 3 devices. first one was the Trinity test, then Hiroshima, then Nagasaki.
insane how much spying was going on even on mainland america
OlimarThat's pretty nuts. Do you have a source for this? Interested to read more about it.
momsspaghettii believe i read it in The Last Train from Hiroshima...basically a story of like 150 people who survived Hiroshima, and then hopped a train to Nagasaki and survived that blast as well.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Train-Hiroshima-Survivors/dp/1400165636
i didn't know that the author embellished so many details, so my original statement might not be true.
cobra_commanderyes. addition fail.
onenerdykidMost history books claim it was this.
deNeb2015-1945=70
70=60?
ANDR01DI heard it was the firebombing of Tokyo that really pushed them into surrendering. I'm probably remembering it wrong though.
VinnieFNah, the war was pretty much over already. Germany had already surrendered and the Allies had already won. There were only a few still fighting, Japan being one, and even they were already toast and were about to give in anyways. The bombs just expedited Japan's surrender by maybe a couple months, but they in no way ended the war.
las.Why is this being downvoted? It's pretty accurate. In fact, Japan had tried to bring the conflict to an end a considerable amount of time before they were eventually bombed. Their offer of a complete surrender of everything (excluding the Emperor) was rejected and then counter-offered with almost exactly replicated terms after they had been obliterated by the american nukes. No one ever discusses the fact that Japan's attack on pearl harbour was retaliation itself to extensive fire bombings the country had endured from american forces.
las.No one ever discusses the fact that Japan's attack on pearl harbour was retaliation itself to extensive fire bombings the country had endured from american forces.
CaseyAnd Iran can't seem to get over a few decades of American puppet government. Japan got nuked, twice, and their cool now. Wtf.
cobra_commanderAre you serious?
las.Very. The burning to death of 100,000 civilians isn't really something to joke about, I think
CaseyAnd Iran can't seem to get over a few decades of American puppet government. Japan got nuked, twice, and their cool now. Wtf.
las.Why is this being downvoted?
VinnieFBecause the US needs to justify one of the single worst things human beings have ever done by convincing themselves that without having done it WW2 would not have been won. They're actually taught in school that they were the ones who won WW2, when really it could not have been won without all three of the largest Allied powers working together. So since you can't argue a truthful post you want to be wrong it's easier to just downvote it.
JAHpowNowhere is it taught that the US was the sole winner of WWII.
VinnieFnot sole winner, the ones who won the war.
JAHpowStill not taught
VinnieFHow many curriculums are there across the US? How many of those did you go through? I mean they don't all teach you the US won the war of 1812 either.
JAHpowI don't know just as much as you don't know.
But I do know that the curriculums that I've been through have never taught anything about the US being the winners. They teach it as a joint effort.
This is such a pointless exchange of posts.
VinnieFBecause the US needs to justify one of the single worst things human beings have ever done by convincing themselves that without having done it WW2 would not have been won. They're actually taught in school that they were the ones who won WW2, when really it could not have been won without all three of the largest Allied powers working together. So since you can't argue a truthful post you want to be wrong it's easier to just downvote it.
mirozDouble post, no shame.
My advisor is holding a symposium next month with this as the topic. He's invited 5 nuclear scientists from Japan and five nuclear specialists (social issues, weapons experts) from the U.S. to discuss the legacy of the bombs in various fields from from different viewpoints. Should be real dope.
mirozFrom a different perspective, I believe there is also a theory that the US used the bombs already knowing that Japan would be defeated. In that theory, their purpose was to flex US muscles at the USSR. It certainly set the stage for the Cold War...
las.No one ever discusses the fact that Japan's attack on pearl harbour was retaliation itself to extensive fire bombings the country had endured from american forces.
