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If you haven't been hiding under a rock for the past year than you'd probably know about the beef between gay couples and bakers who won't bake them a wedding cake because of their religious beliefs. Long story short, the government is putting these out of business for refusing service and it's bull shit.
Let it first be known that I'm not religious, doesn't mean I don't respect religious people's belief. Basically you guys need to get the fuck over yourselves and go on to the next baker if the first one you went to won't make you a fucking cake. I'm sure that there are thousands of bakers in this country that will bake you a fucking gay wedding cake so why not do some research and go to those ones. All you're doing is trying to create a completely avoidable controversy because you feel the need to act like you're being discriminated upon even though you're really not anymore. Seriously though, the LGBT and all of it's supporters are the biggest fucking pussies on Earth. Not every thing is going to go your way, it's called life. Deal with it.
You need to use the other drinking fountain boy, this one's not for you.
There are thousands of other drinking fountains in this country that you can use. You should do some research and find out which ones you can. It's pretty easy.
BravoWhiskey5280All you're doing is trying to create a completely avoidable controversy because you feel the need to act like you're being discriminated upon even though you're really not anymore.
lol wut. "Suck it up and be discriminated already. You're not being discriminated." Yeah that's not how it works.
So let me ask you this question, are bakers allowed to refuse to make a cake for a straight man's second marriage? Divorce is against the bible, after all.
I also get a kick out of how bakers and florists are the ones to be put on the spot about discriminating against gays. They really couldn't have found a less stereotypically gay profession?
If a KKK member went to a black baker and said he wanted a cake for their KKK party with some racist design, can he turn down the KKK members business or are they too going to be forced to bake a cake?
theBearJewIf a KKK member went to a black baker and said he wanted a cake for their KKK party with some racist design, can he turn down the KKK members business or are they too going to be forced to bake a cake?
But that's the opposite argument. In this case, they're being forced to make something bad. Whereas in the gay case, they're being forced to make something that is actually good that they see as bad.
That being said, nobody should be forced to make anything. If a baker feels that strongly about not baking gay cakes, he or she has a few options:
1. Learn to be accepting, change your views, and make the cake.
2. Hold their grudges but keep them to himself, and make the cake.
3. Express their offensive views, deal with the consequences and continue to be under fire, and don't make the cake.
4. Find a less controversial profession.
CheddarJackBut that's the opposite argument. In this case, they're being forced to make something bad. Whereas in the gay case, they're being forced to make something that is actually good that they see as bad.
That being said, nobody should be forced to make anything. If a baker feels that strongly about not baking gay cakes, he or she has a few options:
1. Learn to be accepting, change your views, and make the cake.
2. Hold their grudges but keep them to himself, and make the cake.
3. Express their offensive views, deal with the consequences and continue to be under fire, and don't make the cake.
4. Find a less controversial profession.
Playing devil's advocate here, but the KKK is just bad in your opinion. In that guys opinion its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Id like to think if I was a baker I could refuse to make a cake for someone who is having an anti-israel party without being punished.
4. Find a less controversial profession.[/QUOTEThis just made me laugh because all I could picture was a bunch of noobies at Johnson and Wales in chef's hats listening to their head chef give the come-to-jesus spiel.
"This job is no cake-walk. It's not all frosting and sprinkles, alright?! You're going to deal with some serious shit. Your cakes will be dry. Your cream puffs will curdle. Your souffle's will fall!
....and you are going to be at the epicenter of hundreds of heated debates regarding an individual's right to love, marry, and be accepted by society regardless of their sexual orientation.
theBearJewPlaying devil's advocate here, but the KKK is just bad in your opinion. In that guys opinion its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Id like to think if I was a baker I could refuse to make a cake for someone who is having an anti-israel party without being punished.
I see your point and that is why I stand by my belief that no baker should be forced to make anything. It makes sense for them to turn down a socially unacceptable offer like a white supremacist or anti-Israel cake, but that just brings the argument back to its roots. Gays should be socially acceptable. They aren't always so, so it should be socially unacceptable to turn down an offer to make a cake for a gay wedding. It should be the same amount of unacceptable as a baker turning down a request to make a cake for, say, a black wedding. But it isn't. And that is what the push is for. To raise social awareness and promote acceptance.
To continue my earlier point, I'll support a baker choosing not to make a certain cake, but that doesn't mean that it won't upset me and that I won't say anything. Just forcing actions won't change many beliefs. Just look at the whole confederate flag debacle. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
CaptainObvious.This just made me laugh because all I could picture was a bunch of noobies at Johnson and Wales in chef's hats listening to their head chef give the come-to-jesus spiel.
"This job is no cake-walk. It's not all frosting and sprinkles, alright?! You're going to deal with some serious shit. Your cakes will be dry. Your cream puffs will curdle. Your souffle's will fall!
....and you are going to be at the epicenter of hundreds of heated debates regarding an individual's right to love, marry, and be accepted by society regardless of their sexual orientation.
THIS IS CONFECTIONERY SCHOOL GOD DAMNIT!!!"
+1 for quality satire.
This just goes to show how silly this whole ordeal is. It shouldn't be controversial but it is.
theBearJewIf a KKK member went to a black baker and said he wanted a cake for their KKK party with some racist design, can he turn down the KKK members business or are they too going to be forced to bake a cake?
In all reality, I dont think it would be okay to refuse to bake the cake. Thats just my opinion though, obviously I think it is in poor taste still.
Allowing discrimination of some, and not others is a very slippery slope.
CheddarJackI see your point and that is why I stand by my belief that no baker should be forced to make anything. It makes sense for them to turn down a socially unacceptable offer like a white supremacist or anti-Israel cake, but that just brings the argument back to its roots. Gays should be socially acceptable. They aren't always so, so it should be socially unacceptable to turn down an offer to make a cake for a gay wedding. It should be the same amount of unacceptable as a baker turning down a request to make a cake for, say, a black wedding. But it isn't. And that is what the push is for. To raise social awareness and promote acceptance.
To continue my earlier point, I'll support a baker choosing not to make a certain cake, but that doesn't mean that it won't upset me and that I won't say anything. Just forcing actions won't change many beliefs. Just look at the whole confederate flag debacle. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
+1 for quality satire.
This just goes to show how silly this whole ordeal is. It shouldn't be controversial but it is.
Agreed. If they dont want to make the cake, thats fine. But if the people who were denied decide to go to social media and then people boycott their business, thats also fine. Actions have consequences, but those consequences shouldn't be the legal system forcing the baker to pay the refused couple a settlement.
theBearJewAgreed. If they dont want to make the cake, thats fine. But if the people who were denied decide to go to social media and then people boycott their business, thats also fine. Actions have consequences, but those consequences shouldn't be the legal system forcing the baker to pay the refused couple a settlement.
Whats to stop a white baker from denying a black couple a cake then though? Social media is strong, but so are these beliefs, especially in some regions, that no amount of social media is going to harm a discriminatory business in different regions of our country.
ndyeIn all reality, I dont think it would be okay to refuse to bake the cake. Thats just my opinion though, obviously I think it is in poor taste still.
Allowing discrimination of some, and not others is a very slippery slope.
I take back this reply, after a little thought, I totally misrepresented what I believe.
IMO gay people and couples should be a protected class in America. You are born gay, you are not born a Klan member.
This would mean that gay people have equal protection under the law as different races do. This means they cannot be refused service for being gay, cannot be fired for being gay, cannot be denied employment for being gay etc. etc.
Legalizing gay marriage is great, but it does not mean equality for gay people, when they are not a protected class in society.
If its their business that they own why not? They should be able to refuse someone business simply because they talked to them and dont like them. I dont approve of people that discriminate like that but if its their privately owned business they can do what they want. Just like if you own a house, anyone you dont want on your property is not allowed to be on your property
ndyeI take back this reply, after a little thought, I totally misrepresented what I believe.
IMO gay people and couples should be a protected class in America. You are born gay, you are not born a Klan member.
This would mean that gay people have equal protection under the law as different races do. This means they cannot be refused service for being gay, cannot be fired for being gay, cannot be denied employment for being gay etc. etc.
Legalizing gay marriage is great, but it does not mean equality for gay people, when they are not a protected class in society.
There you go. Until they're a protected class, the government can't intervene.
.Hugo.If its their business that they own why not? They should be able to refuse someone business simply because they talked to them and dont like them. I dont approve of people that discriminate like that but if its their privately owned business they can do what they want. Just like if you own a house, anyone you dont want on your property is not allowed to be on your property
Its sad to me that you believe its the right of a business to refuse service to people of color, such as myself, because of the color of our skin.
I hope if you met me you would realize it not just morally wrong but legally wrong to refuse service to people for something that cannot be helped.
It all comes down to private vs public. In private you're free to discriminate as much as you like. There's the KKK, blackpanters and snowboarders. However businesses are what known as public accommodations (just means they're open to the public). And if you're open to the public, you must follow certain rules. Like having smoke detectors and following other government laws. And history has shown us if you do allow discrimination by businesses things get ugly, like real ugly. For states with anti discrimination laws a business can't deny you service on the basis of your sexual orientation.
But, why can a baker deny someone who wants a homophobic slur on their cake??? Well the bakery can refuse because it comes back to the phrase "on the basis off". A bakery is saying no on the basis off it being offensive as compared to legitement discrimination of on the basis of religion, race,gender or sexual orientation.
But I wouldn't get all sad because a gay couple might sue you for baking them a cake, only 20 states protect gay couples from being discriminated against. In the other 30 gays be fired from their job for just being gay. A banker can deny a gay couple a loan for a house. A school can deny them an education on their sexual orientation.
There's a bigger picture for the LGBT+ community, and it's more than just having a cake baked for you. It's about equal protection under the law and not being discriminated against because you like the same sex.
.Hugo.If its their business that they own why not? They should be able to refuse someone business simply because they talked to them and dont like them. I dont approve of people that discriminate like that but if its their privately owned business they can do what they want. Just like if you own a house, anyone you dont want on your property is not allowed to be on your property
Nope, business's are what known as public accommodations, meaning they must follow the same anti discrimination laws as everyone else with regards to their customers.
ndyeIts sad to me that you believe its the right of a business to refuse service to people of color, such as myself, because of the color of our skin.
I hope if you met me you would realize it not just morally wrong but legally wrong to refuse service to people for something that cannot be helped.
Its not something i would do if i owned a business, i just think if its their business they should be able to refuse it to whoever they please. I think a black business owner should also be able to refuse service to a white person. I dont get how people get that offended over this stuff to take a business to court over this matter. If it happened to me id shrug it off and go to one of the other nearby bakeries. If youre gay why would you want to give your business to someone that believes you shouldnt be able to get married anyways? Wouldnt you want to know thats what the owner believes so you can bring your business elsewhere rather than supporting him?
S.J.WNope, business's are what known as public accommodations, meaning they must follow the same anti discrimination laws as everyone else with regards to their customers.
.Hugo.Its not something i would do if i owned a business, i just think if its their business they should be able to refuse it to whoever they please. I think a black business owner should also be able to refuse service to a white person. I dont get how people get that offended over this stuff to take a business to court over this matter. If it happened to me id shrug it off and go to one of the other nearby bakeries. If youre gay why would you want to give your business to someone that believes you shouldnt be able to get married anyways? Wouldnt you want to know thats what the owner believes so you can bring your business elsewhere rather than supporting him?
I thought we were finally at a point where we could all agree discriminating on the basis of race should be illegal (forunately as it is). Alas, I am wrong again.
Racism is fucking wrong, and thank god its illegal. Sorry you arent from a class that has ever had a problem with discrimination. Your statements are the most clear example of white privilege.
.Hugo.If it happened to me id shrug it off and go to one of the other nearby bakeries.
It's not often we disagree my dear Hugo, but I do in this case. I don't think you'd shrug it off. You've never had it happen to you, but I could see how it would be an extremely lessening and impactful experience to be told to leave an establishment simply because your skin is a certain color. Maybe the first time it happened you might just be like, "uhhh that was fucking weird." But it would take no time flat for you to feel like less of a person.
ndyeWhats to stop a white baker from denying a black couple a cake then though? Social media is strong, but so are these beliefs, especially in some regions, that no amount of social media is going to harm a discriminatory business in different regions of our country.
.Hugo.If its their business that they own why not? They should be able to refuse someone business simply because they talked to them and dont like them. I dont approve of people that discriminate like that but if its their privately owned business they can do what they want. Just like if you own a house, anyone you dont want on your property is not allowed to be on your property
This is such a tough issue. Where as it is a slippery slope to allow someone to refuse business to some but not all, its equally slippery on the other side. Id like to not have to serve an anti israel person, but lets say that person is also black or gay. Am I now a racist/bigot because I chose not to sever the person on a subject not related to race or sexual orientation?
The more we take away peoples freedoms of choice and ability to voice opinions the more we fall into race baiting and people claiming social injustices for the sake of their feelings being hurt. Is that the case everytime, no. Are there instances when it is justified, of course. To me it is a very tricky balancing act.
More people today seem to be offended by more things and more people need to be tolerant of things that seem like they never even existed 5 years ago. Everyone is trying to find a way to show they are an accepting person and if you dont you may be labeled as a bigot or racist for a belief that is against theirs.
Probably took that to a place where this thread didnt need to go but whatever.
ndyeI thought we were finally at a point where we could all agree discriminating on the basis of race should be illegal (forunately as it is). Alas, I am wrong again.
Dont tell me you are actually naive enough to think that the world will ever be completely rid of racists or all other prejudices
Are there ever times when it's okay to refuse service to someone (besides when a customer is being ridiculous or disrespectful or whatever)?
For example, last summer some lady made a huge deal (aka filed a human rights complaint) about a barber shop refusing to serve her even though she wanted a men's sort of style. The owner of of the barber (Ragged Ass Barbers) shop said they "chose to model their shop after the time-honoured tradition of classic barbershop because as barbers they have dedicated their careers to men's grooming services."
I get that it's not okay to discriminate, but I feel like that (the lady) are just out to look for a fight and make some kind of a point and that ticks me off. There are roughly a million people who cut hair in every city, but she chose the one who caters to dudes.
.Hugo.Dont tell me you are actually naive enough to think that the world will ever be completely rid of racists or all other prejudices
Im not but I think giving racists refusing to allow black people access to goods and service two thumbs up in the eyes of the law isnt going to help alleviate the issue.
To argue otherwise is ludicrous and I think a look back at history would reinforce my point.
ndyeRacism is fucking wrong, and thank god its illegal. Sorry you arent from a class that has ever had a problem with discrimination. Your statements are the most clear example of white privilege.
I never said it was right. I actually said the opposite in an earlier post
CaptainObvious.It's not often we disagree my dear Hugo, but I do in this case. I don't think you'd shrug it off. You've never had it happen to you, but I could see how it would be an extremely lessening and impactful experience to be told to leave an establishment simply because your skin is a certain color. Maybe the first time it happened you might just be like, "uhhh that was fucking weird." But it would take no time flat for you to feel like less of a person.
I honestly couldnt care less what someone says or thinks about me. Like i said if someone did discriminate against me i wouldnt want to give them my money anyways. Would i like that they refused me? No i wouldnt. But life is too short to get hung up on it, just move on to the next one
Anyways im outta here. Nothing anyone says is gonna change my mind, and ill never change your guys mind so this is a complete waste of time.
.Hugo.I never said it was right. I actually said the opposite in an earlier post
I honestly couldnt care less what someone says or thinks about me. Like i said if someone did discriminate against me i wouldnt want to give them my money anyways. Would i like that they refused me? No i wouldnt. But life is too short to get hung up on it, just move on to the next one
Anyways im outta here. Nothing anyone says is gonna change my mind, and ill never change your guys mind so this is a complete waste of time.
Yes as a white male growing up in the midwest, I am sure you have a great understanding of the struggles of someone being segregated against based off rage or gender.
Youre a classic case of white priviledge without any sympathy (or at least desire to do something) for the struggles of others.
saskskierAre there ever times when it's okay to refuse service to someone (besides when a customer is being ridiculous or disrespectful or whatever)?
For example, last summer some lady made a huge deal (aka filed a human rights complaint) about a barber shop refusing to serve her even though she wanted a men's sort of style. The owner of of the barber (Ragged Ass Barbers) shop said they "chose to model their shop after the time-honoured tradition of classic barbershop because as barbers they have dedicated their careers to men's grooming services."
I get that it's not okay to discriminate, but I feel like that (the lady) are just out to look for a fight and make some kind of a point and that ticks me off. There are roughly a million people who cut hair in every city, but she chose the one who caters to dudes.
Am I out to lunch on thinking that way?
Nah, there are definitely rogue examples of people who just want to make a fit about things. But if you are ever turning someone away, such as posted above, who is asking for a service you offer, and the reason why is either race, gender, or religion, youre fucking up and its not a good idea.
Eh, even if the owner of a cake shop was allowed to discriminate it's hardly the worst case scenario. Word will get out that he won't cater to a certain group and then he ironically bites the hand that feeds him.
Alternatively if you do force him to serve people he'll probably be pissed off about it and provide poor service. Do I want to piss off a baker so he can spit in my cake? Nah.
NinetyFourEh, even if the owner of a cake shop was allowed to discriminate it's hardly the worst case scenario. Word will get out that he won't cater to a certain group and then he ironically bites the hand that feeds him.
Unless you are in certain areas in which case you will be hailed as a hero.
What you people have to understand is that the bakers are not trying to make a statement and they're not hating on gays by refusing these couple's service. They're doing it because they believe it's a sin, a burden on their soles in their quest to make it to heaven. So to them they are being forced against their will to do something that could burden them. That's messed up regardless of what your opinion on religion is. If you were a decent human being than you'd be revent towards their beliefs. If you don't know what reverence is than go look it up. You are discriminating upon someone's religion and their beliefs when you tell them that their wrong for believing in Christianity.
I know for a fact that there are multiple members on this website that have no problem in telling a Christian that they are an idiot. It can actually be pretty brutal sometimes to see because some people on here are obsessed with trying to prove their point. Of course the mods won't do anything about it though because when it comes to discrimination on this site. NS is pretty much adamant that gays, blacks, women, or liberals are off limits from being discriminated upon. They're even so serious about it that a lot of the time they will being someone for sing something not even minorly offensive. Basically if you don't agree with them, then that is grounds to be banned. Christianity is fair game though, there literally isn't a negative thing you can't say about Christianity on this site because the mods will agree with anything being said about it.
There was a story recently in Michigan that has completely flown under the radar. It is about how this bakery owned by a Muslim had refused service to a gay couple for a wedding cake. Of course all the social justice warriors out there tucked their tails between their legs and let this Muslim owner off with out a pep. That's not surprising though. None of you liberals out there or LGBT supporters would have the balls to call out a Muslim if they did this. It's laughable how you guys are always chomping at the bit to talk shit about Christians that aren't being tolerant towards gays. Yet when Muslims, that being all of them, aren't tolerant towards homosexuality then you guys are nowhere to be found. There's only one reasonable explanation for this hypocritical behavior and that's your obsessive heat towards Christians.
What's also ridiculous is how some of you people think that ones sexual orientation is just as relevant as someone's race or ethnicity when it comes to how they identify themselves. Refusing service to someone because of their sexual orientation is nowhere close to level of discrimination one receives when they are refused service because of the color of their skin. The same can be said for those that are discriminated upon for the religious beliefs. That's because we can't identify who and what we are based upon our sexual orientation. If that were the case then why don't we see companies asking for our sexual orientation on a job applications? Where you are from, what you look like, what type of genetalia you have, and what you believe in are what make up a human being's identity. Our sexual orientation on the other hand is our personal preference. I could very easily hit on a guy if I wanted to but I prefer woman, aka it's my preference. On the other hand, it would be pretty much be impossible for me to change the color of my skin. That's why it's ridiculous to compare something that's based upon preference to something where preference is fucking irrelevant.
If the LGBT's communitiy goal is to have homosexuals be viewed and treated like straight people are, then they need to stop making such a big deal out of the fact that they are gay. You are doing yourself a disservice when you label yourself as being apart of the LGBT community. When you do that you're automatically separating yourself as someone that is not like everybody else. So if you separate yourself from everyone else then how does that help your goal of being treated like everybody else. If you look at it objectively, then you'll see that you can only blame yourself for why you feel inequal.
You're a great troll This thread is about to blow up. I will leave 2 cents before it does.
BravoWhiskey5280What you people have to understand is that the bakers are not trying to make a statement and they're not hating on gays by refusing these couple's service. They're doing it because they believe it's a sin, a burden on their soles in their quest to make it to heaven. So to them they are being forced against their will to do something that could burden them. That's messed up regardless of what your opinion on religion is. If you were a decent human being than you'd be revent towards their beliefs. If you don't know what reverence is than go look it up. You are discriminating upon someone's religion and their beliefs when you tell them that their wrong for believing in Christianity.
I know for a fact that there are multiple members on this website that have no problem in telling a Christian that they are an idiot. It can actually be pretty brutal sometimes to see because some people on here are obsessed with trying to prove their point. Of course the mods won't do anything about it though because when it comes to discrimination on this site. NS is pretty much adamant that gays, blacks, women, or liberals are off limits from being discriminated upon. They're even so serious about it that a lot of the time they will being someone for sing something not even minorly offensive. Basically if you don't agree with them, then that is grounds to be banned. Christianity is fair game though, there literally isn't a negative thing you can't say about Christianity on this site because the mods will agree with anything being said about it.
1. You make an interesting argument about asking religious bakery owners to "sin." However, I think you're simply misconstruing the point. You're not asking them to get married. You're not even asking them to condone the marriage. All you're asking them to do is bake a fucking cake. Is it a sin to be happy for people who don't agree with your beliefs?
2. The reason you see internet Christians getting shit on is because they try to engage in logical, fact-based arguments with people; it may not be known whether any religion is right or if a god exists, but religions today are largely based in faith, not fact. If someones tries to argue facts on the internet and backs them up with religious belief, everyone else is going to have a field day. It's just easy pickings, and people keep coming back.
BravoWhiskey5280There was a story recently in Michigan that has completely flown under the radar. It is about how this bakery owned by a Muslim had refused service to a gay couple for a wedding cake. Of course all the social justice warriors out there tucked their tails between their legs and let this Muslim owner off with out a pep. That's not surprising though. None of you liberals out there or LGBT supporters would have the balls to call out a Muslim if they did this. It's laughable how you guys are always chomping at the bit to talk shit about Christians that aren't being tolerant towards gays. Yet when Muslims, that being all of them, aren't tolerant towards homosexuality then you guys are nowhere to be found. There's only one reasonable explanation for this hypocritical behavior and that's your obsessive heat towards Christians.
3. Generalizations like this are what make the rest of the world laugh at America. Point and laugh, people, another person who thinks he can blanket statements about huge populations of people.
BravoWhiskey5280What's also ridiculous is how some of you people think that ones sexual orientation is just as relevant as someone's race or ethnicity when it comes to how they identify themselves. Refusing service to someone because of their sexual orientation is nowhere close to level of discrimination one receives when they are refused service because of the color of their skin. The same can be said for those that are discriminated upon for the religious beliefs. That's because we can't identify who and what we are based upon our sexual orientation. If that were the case then why don't we see companies asking for our sexual orientation on a job applications? Where you are from, what you look like, what type of genetalia you have, and what you believe in are what make up a human being's identity. Our sexual orientation on the other hand is our personal preference. I could very easily hit on a guy if I wanted to but I prefer woman, aka it's my preference. On the other hand, it would be pretty much be impossible for me to change the color of my skin. That's why it's ridiculous to compare something that's based upon preference to something where preference is fucking irrelevant.
4. You may think that sexual orientation is less relevant than race and ethnicity in defining identity, but:
a) That's just like, your opinion man
b) It's certainly more relevant than someone's religion; your entire arguments are centered around bakery owners identifying themselves as religious and acting on it. Da fuq?
c) Science indicates that sexual orientation IS NOT a choice. Religion is. Your argument is invalid. In addition:
Pure faith of any kind would tell people to love all other people. Why there is such animosity towards other humans based on a few words cherry-picked out of an ancient book is beyond me. Love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated.
BravoWhiskey5280If the LGBT's communitiy goal is to have homosexuals be viewed and treated like straight people are, then they need to stop making such a big deal out of the fact that they are gay. You are doing yourself a disservice when you label yourself as being apart of the LGBT community. When you do that you're automatically separating yourself as someone that is not like everybody else. So if you separate yourself from everyone else then how does that help your goal of being treated like everybody else. If you look at it objectively, then you'll see that you can only blame yourself for why you feel inequal.
Hmmm...is that what African Americans did during the Civil Rights Movement? Of course! The best way to deal with a problem is to ignore it, obviously. I think you need to take a history lesson.
This is the threshold question. If you thonk they can refuse service to gays, you have to also be fine with this.
I am actually way more receptive to the idea than I used to be, in the sense that I can see the appeal of saying, people should be free to destroy their reputations and businesses.
And probs to Hugo, I would of given up responding a long time ago, he literally wasn't reading a thing you said and just reading what he wanted to see. Not once did you try to say it was a morally right thing to deny service just that one should be allowed.
mirozYou're a great troll This thread is about to blow up. I will leave 2 cents before it does.
1. You make an interesting argument about asking religious bakery owners to "sin." However, I think you're simply misconstruing the point. You're not asking them to get married. You're not even asking them to condone the marriage. All you're asking them to do is bake a fucking cake. Is it a sin to be happy for people who don't agree with your beliefs?
2. The reason you see internet Christians getting shit on is because they try to engage in logical, fact-based arguments with people; it may not be known whether any religion is right or if a god exists, but religions today are largely based in faith, not fact. If someones tries to argue facts on the internet and backs them up with religious belief, everyone else is going to have a field day. It's just easy pickings, and people keep coming back.
3. Generalizations like this are what make the rest of the world laugh at America. Point and laugh, people, another person who thinks he can blanket statements about huge populations of people.
4. You may think that sexual orientation is less relevant than race and ethnicity in defining identity, but:
a) That's just like, your opinion man
b) It's certainly more relevant than someone's religion; your entire arguments are centered around bakery owners identifying themselves as religious and acting on it. Da fuq?
c) Science indicates that sexual orientation IS NOT a choice. Religion is. Your argument is invalid. In addition:
Pure faith of any kind would tell people to love all other people. Why there is such animosity towards other humans based on a few words cherry-picked out of an ancient book is beyond me. Love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated.
Hey you're a great troll as well! See what I did there? I can call you a troll too! It's really fucking easy. Does that mean you really are a troll? Who the f*** knows! A troll can be whatever someone wants it to fucking be. That's why it's a stupid fucking thing to say.
Aside from all that stupid s*** though, I wanted to address the first point you made about how baking a cake for a homosexual couple isn't a sin. Guess what, even though you and I may not think that baking a cake for a homosexual couple isn't a sin, in the end that's really not up to us. It is all up to the individual. If an individual believes that baking a cake for a homosexual couple is a sin, then it is by all means a sin to that person. You are confused, you view all of Christianity as if it operates by the same set of guidelines when in fact that couldn't be farther from the truth. The freedom of religion in this country allows an individual to identify themselves with whatever religion they want and it also allows them to believe in whatever they want. So even if the individual has some different beliefs than that of the denomination they identify themselves with, that doesn't mean that they are a member of that denomination. Identifying as a member of a religion or any particular denomination of christianity is solely based upon the individual. The freedom of religion allows me to identify myself with any religion that I want to. So if I wanted to say that I was Muslim even though I've never read the Quarn, than I am Muslim. Even if other Muslims that are devout suggests I'm not, that doesn't matter because it's not up to them.
Now to your second paragraph. If someone wants to argue fact backed by religion then they by all means are allowed to do so. They very well may not be right, but that doesn't matter. Once again, they are allowed to believe in whatever they want to believe in, even if that means they believe in something that isn't true. So stop trying to convince them of something that you can't. Instead you should act like an adult by saying that you respectfully disagree and leave it at that. Everyone we believe in something or believe in something that isn't true, that's just human nature. We believe in the things that we want to believe in even though those things may not be true. That's why it's pointless to try and get everybody in a society on the same page, instead we should be promoting reverence. That way we can learn to cope to peacefully exist with others we don't agree with. Instead we are doing the opposite now unfortunately. We have turned into a bunch of belief police, and have made it our missions to punish those that do not agree with us. It's a pretty simple thing to comprehend, that a bad society is a society that doesn't know how to properly disagree. That's why it's sad to see Americans not realize this, even though it's sitting right in front of their fucking face.
Lastly I respectfully and completely disagree that ones sexual orientation is just as relevant as one's race when it comes to their identity. Name one straight person you know that identifies themselves firstly as being straight before they identify themselves by the their color of their skin or by their religion. Id be willing to bet that those same people would identify themselves by their gender and by where they are from before as well. Unless I'm missing out on something, but I have never in my life have someone identify themselves to me as being straight. Basically if your sexual orientation was just as a significant form of identifying yourself than why aren't straight people doing that? If that was true then they would be. It is also very debatable that homosexuality is something one is anatomically born with. We don't know enough about ourselves as human beings to make that call yet. We may know in the future as technology advances, but as of right now it is something that is definitely not a concrete fact. That's why I find it ironic that you are so certain of something that is scientifically speaking, very questionable. My advice to you would be to remain neutral on the matter until more evidence is presented. That way you're not making a sketchy ass argument as if it were fact. It's easy to see that you want to believe that it is fact, your desire for it to be true hasn't earned made you think that it really is. If you wanted to be certain though, then you'd put your desires behind you and look at it objectively without a bias. If you do that then you stand a much better chance at actually finding the real truth.
BravoWhiskey5280Hey you're a great troll as well! See what I did there? I can call you a troll too! It's really fucking easy. Does that mean you really are a troll? Who the f*** knows! A troll can be whatever someone wants it to fucking be. That's why it's a stupid fucking thing to say.
Why do you star out some of your swears but leave others? It's pretty silly. Also, it's also pretty clear how people on this website feel about you.
BravoWhiskey5280Lastly I respectfully and completely disagree that ones sexual orientation is just as relevant as one's race when it comes to their identity. Name one straight person you know that identifies themselves firstly as being straight before they identify themselves by the their color of their skin or by their religion. Id be willing to bet that those same people would identify themselves by their gender and by where they are from before as well. Unless I'm missing out on something, but I have never in my life have someone identify themselves to me as being straight. Basically if your sexual orientation was just as a significant form of identifying yourself than why aren't straight people doing that? If that was true then they would be. It is also very debatable that homosexuality is something one is anatomically born with. We don't know enough about ourselves as human beings to make that call yet. We may know in the future as technology advances, but as of right now it is something that is definitely not a concrete fact. That's why I find it ironic that you are so certain of something that is scientifically speaking, very questionable. My advice to you would be to remain neutral on the matter until more evidence is presented. That way you're not making a sketchy ass argument as if it were fact. It's easy to see that you want to believe that it is fact, your desire for it to be true hasn't earned made you think that it really is. If you wanted to be certain though, then you'd put your desires behind you and look at it objectively without a bias. If you do that then you stand a much better chance at actually finding the real truth.
I never said that it was just as relevant as race. I only said it was more relevant than religion. Religion is a choice; science INDICATES that sexual orientation is not. You INDICATE that you don't know what this word means. I'm a Ph.D student in engineering. Your little lecture about the sanctity of science is not lost on me, but you completely missed the point and wasted your time typing that.
Time will see this issue laughed at by the people of the future. And I will repeat: Pure faith of any kind would tell people to love all other people. Why there is such animosity towards other humans based on a few words cherry-picked out of an ancient book is beyond me. Love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated.
First off, the word "discrimination" has come to mean something more specific than its original definition of finely distinguishing good quality from bad quality (as in that person has discriminating taste in food) to mean something more ethically charged: the practice of unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people.
The key word in the modern definition is “unfairly” and this is where the debate comes in. In the two examples of a gay couple being turned away based on their sexual orientation and a KKK member being turned away because of his hateful beliefs, in both cases a judgment is made that says “based on your X-trait, we refuse to serve you”. Which one is more unfair? And why?
In our country, the first amendment allows for hate speech to exist (case of Skokie vs Illinois) but in other countries (such as Germany) hate speech is outlawed and punishable. People have argued that it is simply a matter of opinion what constitutes hate speech (or in this case unfair or fair discrimination) and that in the eyes of the KKK customer he thinks he is doing a good thing just like the gay couple thinks they are doing a good thing. Both are their own opinion and both are therefore correct because they are “opinions”.
What I want to draw your attention to is this- that opinions can be false. This is an idea that runs counter to popular North American belief, since we like to believe that all opinions are true (i.e. “like that’s just your opinion man, and I have mine”) but it’s actually far from correct. Factual statements are proven wrong with confirmable data and opinions are proven wrong with logic. For example- if all opinions are true, then my opinion that there are false opinions is necessarily true. This conditional statement logically proves the possibility for false opinions to exist. The debate will therefore be, which opinions are accurate and which ones are wrong.
Is it unfair to turn away a customer because you don’t want to serve them? Given America’s stance on freedom of speech/expression etc, it would seem unfair to turn any customer away because our laws embrace all forms of expression (in that they do not directly cause violence). Thus it would seem that in America, a Muslim shop owner should not turn away gay clients and a Jewish shop owner should not turn away KKK members. If we want to embrace the freedom of expression and free ideas of any kind (so long as they stay ideas and not directly cause violence), then it would be unfair to turn any customer away based on their beliefs (actions are a different matter altogether).
Personally, I would favor more laws like Germany’s since I think that hate speech should be illegal but that is not going to be an easy thing to solve/prove here on a skiing forum. I would defer that topic to a discussion on human rights, autonomy, and moral duty and in that sense most any moral/ethical philosophy has covered that pretty well over the last 3000 years.
BravoWhiskey5280What you people have to understand is that the bakers are not trying to make a statement and they're not hating on gays by refusing these couple's service. They're doing it because they believe it's a sin, a burden on their soles in their quest to make it to heaven. So to them they are being forced against their will to do something that could burden them. That's messed up regardless of what your opinion on religion is. If you were a decent human being than you'd be revent towards their beliefs. If you don't know what reverence is than go look it up. You are discriminating upon someone's religion and their beliefs when you tell them that their wrong for believing in Christianity.
I know for a fact that there are multiple members on this website that have no problem in telling a Christian that they are an idiot. It can actually be pretty brutal sometimes to see because some people on here are obsessed with trying to prove their point. Of course the mods won't do anything about it though because when it comes to discrimination on this site. NS is pretty much adamant that gays, blacks, women, or liberals are off limits from being discriminated upon. They're even so serious about it that a lot of the time they will being someone for sing something not even minorly offensive. Basically if you don't agree with them, then that is grounds to be banned. Christianity is fair game though, there literally isn't a negative thing you can't say about Christianity on this site because the mods will agree with anything being said about it.
First of all, no one has ever been banned for their political views. We delete threads that get out of hand that are about politics.
Second, being gay, black or a women isnt a choice, its just who you are. You can choose to believe in a religion so yes we will never ban anyone for hating on religion.
BravoWhiskey5280Hey you're a great troll as well! See what I did there? I can call you a troll too! It's really fucking easy. Does that mean you really are a troll? Who the f*** knows! A troll can be whatever someone wants it to fucking be. That's why it's a stupid fucking thing to say.
Aside from all that stupid s*** though, I wanted to address the first point you made about how baking a cake for a homosexual couple isn't a sin. Guess what, even though you and I may not think that baking a cake for a homosexual couple isn't a sin, in the end that's really not up to us. It is all up to the individual. If an individual believes that baking a cake for a homosexual couple is a sin, then it is by all means a sin to that person. You are confused, you view all of Christianity as if it operates by the same set of guidelines when in fact that couldn't be farther from the truth. The freedom of religion in this country allows an individual to identify themselves with whatever religion they want and it also allows them to believe in whatever they want. So even if the individual has some different beliefs than that of the denomination they identify themselves with, that doesn't mean that they are a member of that denomination. Identifying as a member of a religion or any particular denomination of christianity is solely based upon the individual. The freedom of religion allows me to identify myself with any religion that I want to. So if I wanted to say that I was Muslim even though I've never read the Quarn, than I am Muslim. Even if other Muslims that are devout suggests I'm not, that doesn't matter because it's not up to them.
Now to your second paragraph. If someone wants to argue fact backed by religion then they by all means are allowed to do so. They very well may not be right, but that doesn't matter. Once again, they are allowed to believe in whatever they want to believe in, even if that means they believe in something that isn't true. So stop trying to convince them of something that you can't. Instead you should act like an adult by saying that you respectfully disagree and leave it at that. Everyone we believe in something or believe in something that isn't true, that's just human nature. We believe in the things that we want to believe in even though those things may not be true. That's why it's pointless to try and get everybody in a society on the same page, instead we should be promoting reverence. That way we can learn to cope to peacefully exist with others we don't agree with. Instead we are doing the opposite now unfortunately. We have turned into a bunch of belief police, and have made it our missions to punish those that do not agree with us. It's a pretty simple thing to comprehend, that a bad society is a society that doesn't know how to properly disagree. That's why it's sad to see Americans not realize this, even though it's sitting right in front of their fucking face.
Lastly I respectfully and completely disagree that ones sexual orientation is just as relevant as one's race when it comes to their identity. Name one straight person you know that identifies themselves firstly as being straight before they identify themselves by the their color of their skin or by their religion. Id be willing to bet that those same people would identify themselves by their gender and by where they are from before as well. Unless I'm missing out on something, but I have never in my life have someone identify themselves to me as being straight. Basically if your sexual orientation was just as a significant form of identifying yourself than why aren't straight people doing that? If that was true then they would be. It is also very debatable that homosexuality is something one is anatomically born with. We don't know enough about ourselves as human beings to make that call yet. We may know in the future as technology advances, but as of right now it is something that is definitely not a concrete fact. That's why I find it ironic that you are so certain of something that is scientifically speaking, very questionable. My advice to you would be to remain neutral on the matter until more evidence is presented. That way you're not making a sketchy ass argument as if it were fact. It's easy to see that you want to believe that it is fact, your desire for it to be true hasn't earned made you think that it really is. If you wanted to be certain though, then you'd put your desires behind you and look at it objectively without a bias. If you do that then you stand a much better chance at actually finding the real truth.
Why are you sporadically censoring your curse words?
BravoWhiskey5280Aside from all that stupid s*** though, I wanted to address the first point you made about how baking a cake for a homosexual couple isn't a sin..
Don't people sin every single day and then they are forgiven? I believe gluttony is also a sin, and all sin is equel. So a baker will partake in that sin as well.
50 years ago people said interracial marriage was also a sin, ahould bakers not be allowed to bake cakes for them as well?
The terms used here in defending refusing service to gay couples, one could easily back pedal 40-50 years and say this is true for the discrimination against blacks.
Your religion is great and you are free to practice it in the way you personally choose. However when you open a business to the public, it is not constitutional in my eyes to discriminate on who you serve regardless of your personal beliefs.
Businesses are public commodities when you open them to the public. IE your personal beliefs that blacks, asians, mexicans, women, or gays are icky isnt okay, and should be illegal. In fact its illegal for 4 of the last 5 groups I mentioned. Gays are just not a protected class yet, and that needs to change.
You cant get fired for being a woman, a specific race, or religion HOWEVER you can get fired for being gay in many places across the country.
What you are all failing to realize is, the argument you are making in defense of not serving gays, is the exact same argument that has always been made under societal pressure to serve these marginalized groups.
