SANDERS 2016

lampyou must be a victim.

#StandWithRand
#LiberalismIsAMentalDisorder

philipcIts actually been proven by MRI scans that Republican voters can't deal with complexity as well as liberals.

http://reverbpress.com/politics/proof-republicans-are-stupid/

CampeadorSolid "proof" there chief.

If that's the case, I wonder why Democrats fear voter ID laws so much?

Granite_StateI personally love how Faux News makes you less informed than no news at all.

I guess its all starting to make sense why you are such a mental midget.

CampeadorSolid "proof" there chief.

If that's the case, I wonder why Democrats fear voter ID laws so much?

CampeadorSolid "proof" there chief.

If that's the case, I wonder why Democrats fear voter ID laws so much?

S.J.WWhy are republicans so scared of voting fraud even though it's almost non existent and has no real affect on democracy.

https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/voter-fraud

Oh that's right, because fox "news" told you to be scared about it as like only democrats commit voter fraud... But you know let's completely ignore republicans actually commit more voter ID fraud

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/21/shocker-republicans-account-for-most-cases-of-u-s-voter-fraud/

It must actually suck to be a cliche republican. Everything you say can be refuted by facts. How with everything that has been going on in this thread that you're still a republican well I can only assume you have one hell of a confirmation bias and reject any and all information going against your opinions. Truly feel sorry for you.

Shewlur...Ah, the age old "fox news is bullshit" argument. you do realize there is a substantial number of moderate or informed republicans who reject fox news? anyways, i'll counter your generalization with a generalization of my own, one that is especially pertinent to this thread

(couldnt find the "i dont understand economics starter pack" meme but this will do) lol

Shewlur...Ah, the age old "fox news is bullshit" argument. you do realize there is a substantial number of moderate or informed republicans who reject fox news? anyways, i'll counter your generalization with a generalization of my own, one that is especially pertinent to this thread

(couldnt find the "i dont understand economics starter pack" meme but this will do) lol

Granite_StateSorry but Fox News is bullshit. Ive watched 100's of hours of their programming and its all fear/war mongering, incredibly biased "news" segments, borderline retarded anchors and set ups (as in they invite guests from the other side to have a "discussion" but all that really is is the anchor talking over the guest and telling them they are wrong). There are maybe 2 analysts that I actually have respect for on there (and theyre republican!!!) There's rarely any actual news on that program, mostly just biased opinions.

Any before you counter with the msnbc/cnn rebuttal, no I dont get my news from them either.

Anyways, when a news channel has to tell you they are "fair and balanced" when they are considered widely as one if not THE most bias news networks you know somethings wrong. So I seriously hope you arent trying to defend them.

So no im not generalizing, we could certainly take a look at the demographics. But your generalization is equally if not more overreaching. Id be willing to bet quite a large portion of bernie supports understand economics. Its seems like the conservative capitalists are the ones having a hard time grasping that concept considering its that system that has got out country and ecomony in the poor position it is in today...

Shewlur...and just to clarify, i was referencing your generalization that all republicans are misinformed because they watch fox news. i wasn't disagreeing with your assertion that fox news is garbage, because you're 100% right on that lol

dyerhes a good dude and worthy canidate but he isnt right for us

MALEPRIVILEGEthen who is?
Hilary and her Oligarchy?
Trump and his bigotry?
Rand and his anarchy?
Carson and his grain bin pyramids?

There is literally nothing wrong with the issues Bernie is presenting. You can debate his proposed methods all day and by all means do! But the issues he brings to the table are much more important to the health of this country than whether or not we can control foreign threats. Market control is the new Nuclear Weapon and we as a nation of consumers, rule the world. By not stabilizing our middle class and revitalizing our economy, there will be no end to the suffering.

Shewlur...you're really trying here i'll give you that

Granite_StateYeah none of these universities studies are credible right?

Brock University, Fairleigh Dickinson University, University of Arkansas, Kent State University.

I personally love how Faux News makes you less informed than no news at all.

I guess its all starting to make sense why you are such a mental midget.

louie.miragsRead this with an open mind. Words from Randall Carlson:


If the government is invested with so much power over the private sector then of course the private institutions are going to do what they can to avoid the costly control that ensues when the political sector is calling all the shots. The top of the food chain is Washington D.C. In a truly free market, not the faux free market that we have in America today, the corporations have no power over anyone. Wall Mart can't force anyone to shop there or to work there. But the politicians can force us to support the likes of Halliburton, Kellogg Brown and Root, Goldman Sachs, the Carlyle Group etc. etc. through taxpayer provided subsidies, bailouts and big fat government contracts. Bernie's solution is more big government intrusion into every aspect of our lives in the name of "fairness" and "equality."
We absolutely need less power in Washington and more power in local government, the town-hall, in families, in small businesses, in private solutions to the enormous problems created by big government and the abandonment of the original American dream of a free people. Is Sanders some kind of omniscient deity that he knows what constitutes fairness? Ask yourselves how much of what he is proposing actually requires the use of government force to re-engineer society according to his model

And, yes, Sanders says some good things, but his solution to society's ills relies on more government when it was, and is, too much government that created the bulk of the ills that plague American society today, i.e. intrusive, militaristic foreign policy and never-ending wars; the insane drug war; police militarization; the prison industrial system; a failing education system; a bloated welfare state that rewards irresponsibility and penalizes productivity and independence; an obscenely ridiculous and complex tax system; environmental degradation resulting from the governments endless wars; the debasement of our currency; an out of control national debt; the list could go on. All of this with no accountability for anyone pushing these failed policies on American society.

Granite_State

.MASSHOLE.People know I am not a Bernie Sanders fan (ie I won't vote for him) but this article really articulates some people's issue with Sanders being the potential POTUS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/07/the-one-dimensionality-of-bernie-sanders-campaign-is-killing-it/

RparrThe other things is that neither he nor his supporters have answers to is where all the money will come from. Bernie's plans will cost an astronomical amount. The middle class is already broke, and nobody is going to want more taxes.

RparrThe other things is that neither he nor his supporters have answers to is where all the money will come from. Bernie's plans will cost an astronomical amount. The middle class is already broke, and nobody is going to want more taxes.

RparrThe other things is that neither he nor his supporters have answers to is where all the money will come from. Bernie's plans will cost an astronomical amount. The middle class is already broke, and nobody is going to want more taxes.

.MASSHOLE.Is the money there? Yes, but most of those companies have the ability to move it offshore.

S.J.WWell he's actually proposing that we tax the highest earners. You know like America did prior to Reagan introducing trickle down economics and pretty much fucking up the middle class of America. Look at the years of Americas greatest economic growth, you had a tax rate for the top earners from 60-90%. Now you have a tax rate of 35% and the inequality is only growing larger and larger with pretty much all new income going to the top 1%.

I'm also going to add that Bernies plans will actually save money in the long run as for every dollar invested in education the state will see on average a return of six dollars. And as for universal healthcare, America is the only developed country int he world not to offer some form of universal health care. Get with the times America.

RparrThis is what I worry about, I feel like this is why us citizens are generally stuck with bearing the brunt of the taxes. We are powerless against it unlike wealthy corps.

Shewlur...Ah, the age old "fox news is bullshit" argument. you do realize there is a substantial number of moderate or informed republicans who reject fox news? anyways, i'll counter your generalization with a generalization of my own, one that is especially pertinent to this thread

(couldnt find the "i dont understand economics starter pack" meme but this will do) lol

S.J.WHahahhaha, and how is trickle down economics going for the middle class? You do realize that the greatest years of American growth was when America had a tax rate for the highest earners between 60 to 90%. But hey not understanding economics... You have the republican party playing chicken to who can introduce the lowest possible flat tax rate which all credible economists would agree is a terrible fucking idea.

philipcSanders doesn't support intrusive, militaristic foreign policy (have you seen his record?), believes in decriminalizing marijuana use, will try to breakup the for-profit prisons, invest in free college, turn around national debt, ect... all of your arguments that your making are actually supporting Bernie Sanders' views.

Have you ever been, yet alone lived in a democratic socialist country? Sure, there are leeches of the system, but there are rarely complaints about people who take advantage of the system. It's just not very common. Oh and no one ever complains about paying extra taxes for free tuition, even if the taxpayer doesn't plan on going to college. Societies function much smoother when there is a safety net.

Oh and keep in mind that nearly all of the problems you brought up were instated by a republican president.

louie.mirags. And people who want Sanders want more government. As if that is going to help??????

Honestly, I think if more people researched libertarian ideas and read up on it, they too would agree and switch their beliefs. Freedom is the answer.

louie.miragsI am for freedom and mainly line up with libertarian ideas which also covers the social topics you mentioned. The fact that Bernie has backed Obama recently with his military actions is already more than I agree with. Just because I do not agree with a lot of what Sanders says does not mean I am a republican..

And the idea of getting the people who do not go to college to pay for the ones who do is crazy when you think about it like that. And no of course I have never lived in a fully socialist country, but America is pretty close. The problem with a lot of the faults our country has is because the government is controlling those faults. And people who want Sanders want more government. As if that is going to help??????

Honestly, I think if more people researched libertarian ideas and read up on it, they too would agree and switch their beliefs. Freedom is the answer.

Granite_StateIs he proposing to tax the middle class substantially more? Maybe you should familiarize yourself with his policies.

philipcA big government can be very beneficial to a society when it doesn't have its hands tied by corporate money/lobbyists - (Another good reason to vote for Bernie) Take it from someone who has lived in a country with heavy socialist programs.

It is quite funny how many people hate on socialist programs when they have never experienced it, it works well. Ask anyone who has lived in one and they will 99% agree.

Campeador

CampeadorCoke and Diet Coke

Campeador

Teafast"Freedom is the answer". Maybe the most over-simplistic solution I've ever heard. Okay, Libertarian ideas are... okay? I guess? Too bad the people representing them want almost zero gun control, to get rid of the IRS, and will let the environment go to shit.


Free markets don't always lead to the best outcome. With Bernie, I think he recognizes the current system isn't working, that it isn't an even playing field whatsoever. It's not that inequality needs to be culled completely, it's that the level of inequality now is too damn high.

louie.miragsWe will start with letting the environment go to shit. Why would you think I would support that? I am an avid outdoorsman and seeing the environment go to shit is the last thing I want. In a libertarian government, ruining the environment would be infringing on every body else's personal property since we own our bodies and the companies doing harm would be doing harm would be held responsible. In the words of Murray Rothbard,

"All such emanations which injure person or property constitute aggression against the private property of the victims. Air pollution, after all, is just as much aggression as committing arson against another's property or injuring him physically. Air pollution that injures others is aggression pure and simple."

And again, what is the current system doing to protect our ecosystems? More can be done and it isn't because of government involvement. For example, there is money in going renewable, like solar, but the government is subsidizing coal and oil energy plants.

mirozOkay wait a second, are you serious? The whole reason there is even a debate about the environment and protecting it is because people don't give a shit about things that don't directly apply to them. Your philosophy is nice and flowery and I'd like to think that in a perfect world, we could make that happen based on social responsibility alone. But it will never happen.

If you deregulate environmental protections, companies will run train on the environment. Dumping, use of chemicals, pesticides, consumption of resources, etc. People either won't know about it or won't care, and even if they did care, a lot of these companies have enough money that it doesn't matter whether you choose to buy their product or not.

I'm generally sympathetic to some libertarian arguments, but this is not one of them. The beauty of government in this particular arena is that it gives power to a collective of weak voices. Government is the mechanism by which we the people can act with forw
ard thinking to preserve our environment while there's still something to preserve. It is government that sets aside the national parks, that pays for them to keep them safe for you and me. It's government that funds the research of risky but potentially groundbreaking new technologies in the national labs to change the energy game. And it's government that takes the definitive action to try and curb emissions. Inevitably their will be some kind of active curtailment on emissions, through tax or otherwise. The market will not adjust in time for anything to get better, and letting the market run free will inevitably make things worse. Such a carbon cut will either come as a popular vote when people pull their heads out of their asses or as a requirement for national security from the earth itself.

You're right that it's bullshit that government still funds the coal and oil industries through subsidies, but the answer isn't to get rid of government regulation of the environment.

louie.miragsYou're right, I did use a very simplified answer because a lot of my ranting about libertarian ideas just get ignored. I am more than happy to have a discussion about it though.
We will start with letting the environment go to shit. Why would you think I would support that? I am an avid outdoorsman and seeing the environment go to shit is the last thing I want. In a libertarian government, ruining the environment would be infringing on every body else's personal property since we own our bodies and the companies doing harm would be doing harm would be held responsible. In the words of Murray Rothbard,

"All such emanations which injure person or property constitute aggression against the private property of the victims. Air pollution, after all, is just as much aggression as committing arson against another's property or injuring him physically. Air pollution that injures others is aggression pure and simple."

And again, what is the current system doing to protect our ecosystems? More can be done and it isn't because of government involvement. For example, there is money in going renewable, like solar, but the government is subsidizing coal and oil energy plants.

Now moving on to the IRS and taxes in general, I can rant but I will let Rothbard sum it up,

"In a sense, the entire system of taxation is a form of involuntary servitude. Take, in particular, the income tax. The high levels of income tax mean that all of us work a large part of the year - several months - for nothing for Uncle Sam before being allowed to enjoy our incomes on the market. Part of the essence of slavery, after all, is forced work for someone at little or no pay. But the income tax means that we sweat and earn income, only to see the government extract a large chunk of it by coercion for its own purposes. What is this but forced labor at no pay?"

Now for gun control, what measures do you feel we need?

TeafastI think that the government needs to take steps towards protecting our environment. I hate that our government subsidizes coal and oil energy. I think that we need to take steps towards fully embracing renewable energy, and I think the government needs to create incentives for renewable energy creation.

Taxes: I don't see them as involuntary servitude, I think that's a little dramatic. As long as our taxes go to things people widely support (which they don't know), I'm okay with them. I think you have to give something up to live in a civilized society. Don't like seeing my money going to immoral wars, that sort of thing. But for education, infrastructure, healthcare, I have no problem with it.


As for gun control. I feel we need common sense gun regulation. Universal background checks, magazine limits, no assault weapons, that sort of thing.

S.J.WDonald

But hey I guess free college is just so scary compared to fascism which let's not forget fucked over Italy, Japan and Germany.

louie.miragsI can agree with portions of your post but take the education system for example. How often do you hear that our education system is failing and they try every which way to fix it but still the test scores aren't high enough? If people were not forced to pay into public schools they could use that money to send their kids to the school of their choice. A school that better fits their needs rather than teaching them a bunch of pointless shit they'll never use. And not every kid is meant for 12 years of manatory schooling. Some kids would be better off leaving after 8 years and then becoming an apprentice or something. But nope... They have to, by law, go to school. And their parents have to pay their school taxes or they will be locked up eventually. And households that never have kids have to pay school taxes for the households who do have kids. So it can be looked at as involuntary servitude.

And the immoral wars we're in is a major part of why forcing us to pay for it is fucked up. And then think of all of the other federal programs we are forced to support whether we agree or not. In NY, for example, the state is giving Belleayre Mountain in the Catskills millions of dollars to support their upgrade and bring jobs to that part of the catskills. Belleayre has been talking about this for years but no private investor wanted any part in this because the competing mountains already are getting the business and belleayre has always just been the "locals" hill. Now if you ski this is awesome. But what if you live 500 miles way in buffalo? Why should you be forced to pay your hard earned tax money to support Belleayre to build a new lodge and trails?? And you can't just not pay your taxes. What if the upgrades fail and the business goes belly up? That is millions and millions of our money down the drain. How is that fair? There is no guarantee that this is going to work. If there was a guarantee a private company would have invested a decade ago.

Shewlur...Ah, the age old "fox news is bullshit" argument. you do realize there is a substantial number of moderate or informed republicans who reject fox news? anyways, i'll counter your generalization with a generalization of my own, one that is especially pertinent to this thread

(couldnt find the "i dont understand economics starter pack" meme but this will do) lol

CampeadorYou've all become so desperate in your lunacy, that you've all gone full-Godwin.

The economics of Fascism and Socialism are the same.

S.J.WDifference is Bernie isn't a socialist. He's a democrat socialist and my fucking god how can't you see the difference between the two? Where as Trump is literally ticking every box of fascism. Or do we not learn from Hitler that fascism is bad?