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Are full camber park skis disappearing? Help me find a new park ski.

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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
After about 80-90 days my replacement set of 2013 atomic punx (my first set I broke halfway through the season but got warrantied) are nearing the end of their life. One of the skis has decambered and is now flat underfoot, so it's only a matter of time before it goes completely. I loved these skis like I've never loved any other ski. They're the most lively, poppy, lightweight ski I've ever ridden and I don't know what I can replace them with that will be the most similar.

Stats; I'm 5'2 (157cm) 130lbs looking for a full camber dedicated park ski that isn't competition level stiff, is well made (no pricepoint skis please) and has medium or long sidecut and is 160-165cm in length. I dislike short sub 17m sidecuts they just feel too hooky to me. I like to have good effective edge, I want to be able to work the full edge of the ski, so tapered tips are no good. I ski jumps primarily.

Ski's I've already ruled out:

2015 atomic punx - Too stiff, isn't full camber anymore.
J-skis whipit - Too soft, isn't full camber, short effective edge/tapered tips.
Line chronic - Too soft, isn't full camber.
Armada park skis - I dislike their "butter zone" design, I want a progressive smooth flex, not a hinge point.
K2 - as far as I can tell doesn't make any full camber twin tip skis anymore.
Volkl wall - Only comes in 170, probably too stiff anyways, but it is full camber!
ON3P Prester - again 170 only
Faction park skis - candide and silas have short sidecuts, also still has rocker.
Surface - only 170's
Icelantic scout - a rare full camber find ,but suffers a short sidecut

Best potential candidates that I've managed to find;

Nordica OMW - Full camber, medium sidecut, not described as overly stiff, a little wider than I'd like, but still the best candidate I've found so far. Same ski as the old dead money I think. For some reason the Ace doesn't come in a smaller size anymore, even though I'm certain the old AoS did.

RMU Diam - I know very little about this ski except that the specs look decent, full camber with longer sidecut, comes in a size I can ride. No idea what the flex is like, can't seem to find many reviews.

That's it.

Feel free to try and talk me out of any of the skis that I've dismissed. Also in my quest to find my next true love for park skiing I've gathered some hard to find stats some of you might be interested in;

Punx 2015
164cm list - tape measure 161cm
effective edge @ 45 degrees 130cm

whipit 2015
164cm list - tape measure 161cm
effective edge @ 45 degrees 116cm

punx 2013
155cm list - tape measure 154cm
effective edge @ 45 degrees 124cm

recoil 2012
159cm list - tape measure 162cm
effective edge @ 45 degrees 128cm

These measurements aren't perfect but should be close enough. Effective edge is important to me. With all the advances we had in ski tech it was hard won to get high performance skis down to below forehead height. Now with everyone adding rocker and taper we seem to be trending the other way again towards longer skis with rocker and taper tacked on and the added swing weight that comes with. In theory you can still use the same size but then you lose effective edge. And manufacturers seem to agree because when they add rocker and taper they size up all their skis up.
Mar 20 2015 4:24PM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
Extensive thread, I like it. I have to head out in a few, but off the top of my head the ski that comes to my mind is the Rossi Scratch. I think it should be comparable to the old Punx, and comes in a big variety of lengths.
Mar 20 2015 6:52PM
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..=
Posts: 548 - Karma: 1,224
The OMW was changed this season from the previous profile to one that now includes a wee bit of rocker in the tip and tail. They're also ultra stiff, but can still be playful in the right conditions. I would actually say the Ace would be a solid bet, especially coming from the old full camber Punxs. Evo has them for pretty low in your size, and they hold up extremely well:

http://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/nordica-ace.aspx
Mar 20 2015 7:51PM
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freeski1620
Posts: 5670 - Karma: 1,718
OP. Didnt read that. it was wayyyyy to long. but. yes. within 5 years all traditional camber park skis will be gone :(

I think for ladies though the Armada ARW is the go to park stick. And its traditional camber. And it will last you longer than anything else!
Mar 20 2015 8:44PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
Thanks for the helpful responses so far. I'm definitely going to check out the Scratch and the Ace, didn't realize Evo still had one from last year since this year they stopped making the smaller size.

Freeski1620, I think there will always be a niche for full camber skis as evidenced by the recent popularity of the Volkl wall and ON3P's introduction of the Prester. The problem is that it's a shrinking niche which means it will be harder for smaller skiers like me to find in workable sizes.
Mar 20 2015 9:53PM
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Pac2
Posts: 794 - Karma: 2,861
I know you don't like armadas but I'm pretty sure the armada THall would be a good ski for you. Full camber progressive flex that is just in the middle, not too soft although it is stiff undefoot so you can still stomp those big jumps. I'd say with all the skis you've tried it's worth a try.
Mar 20 2015 10:13PM
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Burgy
Posts: 414 - Karma: 630
CyanicenineThanks for the helpful responses so far. I'm definitely going to check out the Scratch and the Ace, didn't realize Evo still had one from last year since this year they stopped making the smaller size.

Freeski1620, I think there will always be a niche for full camber skis as evidenced by the recent popularity of the Volkl wall and ON3P's introduction of the Prester. The problem is that it's a shrinking niche which means it will be harder for smaller skiers like me to find in workable sizes.


Agreed there will always be a niche for full camber skis, especially on the east coast.
Mar 21 2015 1:08PM
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IKEA
Posts: 622 - Karma: 3,111
CyanicenineFaction park skis - candide and silas have short sidecuts, also still has rocker.


I have the 2.0 and the Silas. The 2.0 is broken, but I'm trying to repair it. Got the Silas on warranty (and the Darwin jacket, thank you faction). The Silas have no rocker, and the camber is insane compared to other skis that I've skied.

The 2.0s stiffness is 3.5/5 and the Silas have 4/5. Since there are no rocker on Silas, its way stiffer than the 2.0s. I feel that the Silas is almost at a competition stiffness level, but its still not a metal bar.
I have not skied the 1.0, which has both the rocker and the camber, with 2/5 stiffness. I believe its very playful and buttery. Though with the rocker, it may be hard to use the whole edge.
Personally I would suggest the Silas with the full camber, as a park skier I find it fun to take a groomer lap because it carves super well and you wanted a ski that uses the whole edge. You generally ski jumps, and therefore the stiffness would not be a problem.
One thing that I can't say is the durability on the Silas since I've only skied around 7 days on it, but what I do know is that factions customer support (here in Europe) is amazing, there should be no problem getting a new pair if they brake.
I do believe the Candide series are sold out, and you will have to buy next years if you consider them.
Mar 21 2015 3:13PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7143 - Karma: 17,438
Cheack out the NFx they are so good. I would not think they would be too stiff for you. I find them mid stiff in the tip and tail. They will be stiffer then tour punx though. There is also the new salomon TNT for next year. It's a slightly softer NFx pretty much and they go down to small sizes so that could work maybe.
Mar 21 2015 3:51PM
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supersquid
Posts: 1430 - Karma: 2,545
rossignol scratch or salomon nfx, sound good for you
Mar 21 2015 3:56PM
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a_pla5tic_bag
Posts: 9215 - Karma: 5,398
the APO kai's are a full camber park ski. Not sure on size or flex though. Rossi scratches, volkl walls, nordica OMW's, ON3P, that salomon... that's all I can think of. Last years icelantic danollies would probably be nice if you can find them.
Mar 21 2015 4:36PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
tomPietrowskiCheack out the NFx they are so good.


So I had a revelation while looking at this ski. Most (not all) skis are not scaled down very well from the size they originally design it at. The size NFx most of you would ride has a very reasonably chargey sidecut (17m at 176cm length), but go down just two sizes to what I would ride, and the sidecut on supposedly the same exact ski gets stupidly tight (14m at 160cm length).

This explains to me why I hate lots of skis that other people love. The normal people sizes are not the same ski at all to what I'm on.
Mar 21 2015 9:37PM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
CyanicenineSo I had a revelation while looking at this ski. Most (not all) skis are not scaled down very well from the size they originally design it at. The size NFx most of you would ride has a very reasonably chargey sidecut (17m at 176cm length), but go down just two sizes to what I would ride, and the sidecut on supposedly the same exact ski gets stupidly tight (14m at 160cm length).

This explains to me why I hate lots of skis that other people love. The normal people sizes are not the same ski at all to what I'm on.


Yes. The annoying thing is, is that manufacturers don't usually list this. Wouldn't it be nice to know the actual sidecut of the size of ski you're buying...?

From doing some digging, I do beleive that the 160 Scratch survives the design process with a 19m sidecut. Both the larger 2013 Punx and large Scratch have 21m sidecuts, so if the Punx you had were scaled down in similar fashion then the two skis should be fairly close substitutes for eachother. If not then the Scratch is a whole 2m smaller.
Mar 22 2015 1:17PM
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judmaster77
Posts: 176 - Karma: 226
Id look at fischer nightsticks there pretty stiff but they are full camber and durable
Mar 22 2015 1:34PM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,484
the punx rocker is barely noticeable. it has less than the infamous and you can barely tell the infamous has rocker just by looking at it
Mar 22 2015 2:35PM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
Check out Surface Blank park skis. Really cheap and ski so awesome. I love mine. Lot of people bash on durability, etc...no problem for me in the 4 pairs iv owned / ridden. Full camber, great edge hold.
Mar 22 2015 3:42PM
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.CJ.
Posts: 1509 - Karma: 3,669
Try checking out the joystick these
Mar 22 2015 4:14PM
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marrows
Posts: 399 - Karma: 656
Have you considered 4frnt blondies, or just your standard AR7/ARW?

don't consider surface skis if you want anything slightly well made.
Mar 22 2015 4:29PM
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a_pla5tic_bag
Posts: 9215 - Karma: 5,398
.Hugo.the punx rocker is barely noticeable. it has less than the infamous and you can barely tell the infamous has rocker just by looking at it


I also vote this. I used a pair of rockered punx for a few days at breck and I didnt really notice it.
Mar 22 2015 8:35PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
My recent revelation about manufacturers distorting their ski specs when they make their smaller ski sizes, has made me reconsider the punx. Turns out Atomic did something exceedingly rare with the Punx. They tried to keep all the sizes of the ski proportionally true to the original. This means that they sized down the width in the tips and tail with the smaller size in order to keep the sidecut nearly the same in all the models. This is possibly a huge reason I loved the punx so much. Since most other park skis are not sized down this way.

Take the shredditor series for example. The K2 shredditor 102 has my favorite sidecut at 20m on the 184 version (the size most people would buy). The remedy 102 is the exact same ski, tip width, tail width, waist width, all the same specs, same profile, but... the 154 has a 13m sidecut. What? Just because you are a smaller skier doesn't mean you suddenly want to make 10 times more turns than your larger counterpart. It makes no sense.

I now have huge respect for the companies that actually work at resizing their skis without distorting the original design intent.

I will be getting my hands on both the Ace and the Scratch soon to verify the specs, but I'm not ruling out the Punx anymore.
Mar 22 2015 10:56PM
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jellomellow
Posts: 961 - Karma: 3,562
Correct me if im wrong but i think the armada pipe cleaner is full camper and it fucking rips the groomers and jumps.
Mar 23 2015 11:39PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
Got a hold of some more skis today, here are some stats;

Rossignol Scratch 2014
160cm list - tape measure 163cm
effective edge @ 45 degrees 135cm
17m sidecut

Nordica Ace 2014
163cm list - tape measure 163cm
effective edge @ 45 degrees 132cm
17m sidecut

I'm not sure what is going on with the Ace. Evo (and everywhere else) lists the dimensions as being 113-86-113 but the stats listed on the ski itself (printed on the topsheet) are 121-86-110 and a tape measure seems to confirm this. Graphics on the ski are the same and it says "Ace" right on the ski... Because I can't seem to find the true stats of the original length, I can't say if it scales down proportionally or not.

The Ace seems well made, but it is heavy and maybe a bit stiffer than what I want. It is very nice to see a ski that measures "true".

The Scratch has the most effective edge of any of the skis I've measured so far. It also has almost twice the camber depth of the 2015 Punx. This is huge to me because it's a good indication that the ski has great pop and the liveliness that I'm looking for. Even though the 2015 Punx admittedly doesn't have a ton of rocker in the tips (as others have pointed out), it has enough to compromise both the effective edge and the camber depth compared to the 2013 in the same size. The rocker is very noticeable when holding the Punx side by side the Scratch.

The Scratch has a great symmetrical flex with a medium stiffness. Since people keep mentioning Armada, let me point out Armada's huge marketing hype on all their skis is a NON-symmetrical flex profile. The "butter zone" as they describe it. They list the flex profiles of all their park skis and they all measure as softer in the tips and stiffer in the tails. If not for this, I would definitely be considering their skis.

The Scratch is checking off nearly all the boxes for me. The only drawback is the sidecut. It would be nice if the smaller size retained the 21m radius of the original design length. But as it stands now I think it will be the best choice of all my current options.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer suggestions. If you still have more let me know, I like staying informed on current ski specs and I haven't mounted the scratches just yet.
Mar 24 2015 4:12PM
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ghosthop
Posts: 631 - Karma: 1,027
http://www.praxisskis.com/products/park-n-ride-standard-edition.html

sidecut is 16m in the 161, but its worth it to contact Keith with your dilemma and see what he has to say. Besides sidecut, it checks all your boxes.
Mar 26 2015 1:00AM
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Snowpeck
Posts: 267 - Karma: 367
I have the Nordica ace of spades and I love them. Look dope too
Nov 17 2016 2:00PM
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freshiesbrah
Posts: 59 - Karma: 0
I've got Scratches and Blends - park skis on two ends of the spectrum, so I decent comparison point. Scratches are fast as FUCK. Seriously. Heaps of effective edge (I ride the 181s), deep camber and crazy pop. I bought mine second hand and the pop is still insane. A mate who's had a couple of pairs from new tells me the pop and speed when they're new is incredible. I'd call them medium-stiff for flex, definitely occupying the stable end of park skis and probably not suitable if you want something that's very playful. The energy you get out of turns is amazing, pretty much a race ski for the park, they're so so so stable and I've never been on a ski that makes me ski better. I feel like I'm twice as fast as when I'm on the Blends and the confidence they give you is awesome. Of course, I use the skis for different things, I have equal amounts of fun in different ways on each ski. I wouldn't worry about the side cut too much if they're ticking off every box - you're never gonna find the perfect ski.
Nov 17 2016 5:36PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
Not sure why this old thread is getting bumped, but I may as well update everyone. I ended up skiing the rossi Scratches for a season. They had great pop and effective edge, I was fairly happy with them but they never gave me the same feel that the old punx did. So at the end of the season I broke down and bought some discounted (new version) punx. I was instantly much happier.

The thing is if I were a larger skier I could definitely see myself being completely and utterly in love with the Scratches. This is because the 180's have a burly sidecut of 21meters. But because I'm short I had to get the 160cm (remember I'm only 157cm tall). This means I'm riding on the much retarded sidecut of 17meters, which has noticeable hook when ridden at high speeds.

What this journey has taught me is that for me personally, sidecut is the single most important stat on any ski. I previously thought that flex, camber and effective edge had a much bigger influence than they actually do. While I do notice the diminished pop in the punx v scratch, the stability at speed is well worth it. Every time I get on a longer sidecut ski I instantly click with it, regardless of the other specs. So until someone else decides to make a 20meter sidecut 160ishcm park ski I'll be staying loyal to the punx for park skiing.
Nov 18 2016 3:34AM
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HuckNorris44
Posts: 1025 - Karma: 2,393
jellomellowCorrect me if im wrong but i think the armada pipe cleaner is full camper and it fucking rips the groomers and jumps.


^this
Nov 18 2016 4:31AM
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TRVP_ANGEL
Posts: 12503 - Karma: 116,098
freeski1620OP. Didnt read that. it was wayyyyy to long. but. yes. within 5 years all traditional camber park skis will be gone :(

I think for ladies though the Armada ARW is the go to park stick. And its traditional camber. And it will last you longer than anything else!


The prophet of NS downvoted similar to jesus cruxified
Sep 24 2018 3:36PM
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