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Another police shooting

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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
Two police shot and fatally wounded a juvenile wielding an airsoft gun in Cleveland. Yet another example of excessive force and poor judgement from our police force. Why didnt they use a taser? They knew he was a juvenile and had a fake gun. Tragic times.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/23/boy-fake-gun-shot/19438005/
Nov 23 2014 11:46PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
All police should only have non lethal rounds like rubber bullets to protect the lives of innocent citizens.
Nov 23 2014 11:49PM
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Wheat
Posts: 375 - Karma: 1,633
*cue another excessive force debate*
Nov 23 2014 11:55PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,340
the police did the right thing. for all we know the orange tip of the fake gun had been removed. I think that cops should have more of a green light to use deadly force when their lives are in jeopardy
Nov 23 2014 11:57PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
man i can`t wait to be a cop. i always wanna shoot other peoples little kids dead. i mean it`s my dream to be a child-killer. this is what i`ve been training for. protecting myself by any means necessary, from harmless tiny children, and using deadly force without hesitation, before the kid has a chance to pull the fake trigger. plus chicks dig the uniform, especially if it`s got some 12 year-old`s blood on it.
Nov 24 2014 12:06AM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
El_Barto.the police did the right thing. for all we know the orange tip of the fake gun had been removed. I think that cops should have more of a green light to use deadly force when their lives are in jeopardy


couldnt use a taser? seems a little excessive for a twelve year old. and did you read the article? guy who called it in clearly said it was fake, i understand the police still have to wait and find out for themselves but still they should have had that in the back of their mind.
Nov 24 2014 12:17AM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
shit after shit thread bashing cops when nobody understands the circumstances at all. i mean ? The kid shouldn't have been stupid enough to be weilding a gun near a police officer.if you were constantly under the threat of death from being in some shady parts of town what would you do? and im not saying this kid or treyvon martin or apparently the entire town of ferguson were doing anything to harm someone else but why aren't their protests after a cop gets shot in a gang related incident? yeah al sharptons not screaming for police distrust now is he? its honestly all bullshit
Nov 24 2014 12:19AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10635 - Karma: 7,506
herp all cops are bad derp took my bag of weed one time gerp shouldn't take away an illegal substance cause its mine yerp.
Nov 24 2014 12:21AM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
Turd.Fergusonshit after shit thread bashing cops when nobody understands the circumstances at all. i mean ? The kid shouldn't have been stupid enough to be weilding a gun near a police officer.if you were constantly under the threat of death from being in some shady parts of town what would you do? and im not saying this kid or treyvon martin or apparently the entire town of ferguson were doing anything to harm someone else but why aren't their protests after a cop gets shot in a gang related incident? yeah al sharptons not screaming for police distrust now is he? its honestly all bullshit


sorry for my thread barf, im really pissed about this, what im trying to say is...

People don't understand the circumstances of this incedent.

Police have a dangerous job and have a right to protect themselves

the kid shouldn't be weilding an airsoft gun near a cop for the sake of common sense.

whenever a kid gets killed by a cop al sharpton and the whole n double fucking aacp runs to their side, but when a cop gets shot its cricket, eh?

people who get outraged about this need to find a new fucking hobby before i snap their spinal cord off with a pair of bolt cutters
Nov 24 2014 12:27AM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,488
They told him to put his hands up and instead he pulled out an airsoft gun with the orange tip removed. What fuck do you expect them to do? For all they knew the gun was real, and then what, are they supposed to wait until their partner gets shot before they shoot?
Nov 24 2014 12:27AM
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MicroMix
Posts: 297 - Karma: 48
If you reach for a gun(fake or real) in your waist band when someone tells you to put your hands up you're retarded. It's a shit situation but honestly there's no way the cop could be held accountable for this given the circumstances. Get rekt hippies.
Nov 24 2014 12:29AM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,411
Bakerpowcouldnt use a taser? seems a little excessive for a twelve year old. and did you read the article? guy who called it in clearly said it was fake, i understand the police still have to wait and find out for themselves but still they should have had that in the back of their mind.


"Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake."
Nov 24 2014 12:39AM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
im more questioning whether or not deadly force was necessary? tase or use rubber bullets for someone of such a young age? i agree that under the circumstances theyre well within their rights.
Nov 24 2014 12:44AM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,340
Man, i was just trying to rustle some jimmies with my first post lol. This is a tough call, dont pull a gun on a cop is a good way to avoid being shot is my take
Nov 24 2014 12:48AM
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UFOsarereal
Posts: 2285 - Karma: 1,132
Turd.Fergusonwhenever a kid gets killed by a cop al sharpton and the whole n double fucking aacp runs to their side, but when a cop gets shot its cricket, eh?


maybe it's because when a cop is shot, the system works hard to find and punish the shooter. When it's a cop doing the shooting, time and time again, the system shields them from harsh consequences that would be doled out to a civilian who did the same thing. Some people don't think police should be given preferential treatment like that. It's their job to protect people, and their first instinct shouldn't be to kill. Others think it's fine and that all cops are above reproach b/c they have a dangerous job.

That doesn't mean that one group needs to take bolt cutters to their spinal cord or whatever you suggested. Calm down.
Nov 24 2014 12:57AM
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caucasian_chad
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 3,625
Bakerpowcouldnt use a taser? seems a little excessive for a twelve year old. and did you read the article? guy who called it in clearly said it was fake, i understand the police still have to wait and find out for themselves but still they should have had that in the back of their mind.


A 12 year old can kill someone with a gun just as easily as an adult, so I don't really see what age has to do with this. If the kid was unarmed then you obviously don't need to use much force to subdue him, but that wasn't the case.
Nov 24 2014 1:09AM
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gotti
Posts: 4269 - Karma: 4,550
It must be a tough call to make whether the gun is real or fake with all the 12 year olds running around with semi-automatic weapons these days.
Nov 24 2014 1:51AM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,488
Bakerpowim more questioning whether or not deadly force was necessary? tase or use rubber bullets for someone of such a young age? i agree that under the circumstances theyre well within their rights.


you dont use less force than the suspect youre trying to subdue. If they have a gun, you use a gun. They cant take the chance that a rubber bullet or taser wont stop them, then they open fire on the officers or people around them. Its not like these cops are cold blooded killers, I guarantee they didnt want to shoot this kid. Killing someone usually takes a pretty big mental toll on an average person, police officer or not. It being a kid, I bet it haunts them for the rest of their lives.
Nov 24 2014 6:09AM
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
Did they really know it was fake gun?
Nov 24 2014 6:56AM
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.Rybak.
Posts: 9017 - Karma: 9,864
Honestly the kid is a dumbass.. you dont pull out anything on an officer even if it's a "joke" it just doen't work like that if you want to make it out alive.

The kid is obviously a shithead that was heading down the road to be a dipshit and all the media will do is glorify his life like he would have done something that mattered even when his brain told him "pull out a fake gun on an arned police officer, it will be funny"
Nov 24 2014 7:09AM
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Mr.noodle
Posts: 1361 - Karma: 4,655
In most cases of these "police shootings" the "victims" were actually doing wrong and the police had a cause to shoot.

Also if I saw a kid with what resembles a gun and is almost identical looking who was said to be threatening to shoot people I would piss my pAnts and probably shoot too
Nov 24 2014 8:07AM
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Bombogenesis
Posts: 1985 - Karma: 4,022
Play with fire, get burned
Nov 24 2014 8:37AM
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connecticunt
Posts: 847 - Karma: 1,534
All in all I think American police are unnecessarily violent, but I don't think this particular case is completely unjustified. If you pull a gun, real or fake on or around a cop then you're going to get shot. It's a fact. But I also don't believe that police have to shoot to kill in every situation.

But there are so many instances of police brutality where no one can really determine who was at fault unless they see everything that happened. I don't understand why all cops don't have body cams yet but they should. That seems like a really good solution to these types of problems. That's my first thought when I see any of these headlines.
Nov 24 2014 8:58AM
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.Rybak.
Posts: 9017 - Karma: 9,864
connecticuntAll in all I think American police are unnecessarily violent, but I don't think this particular case is completely unjustified. If you pull a gun, real or fake on or around a cop then you're going to get shot. It's a fact. But I also don't believe that police have to shoot to kill in every situation.

But there are so many instances of police brutality where no one can really determine who was at fault unless they see everything that happened. I don't understand why all cops don't have body cams yet but they should. That seems like a really good solution to these types of problems. That's my first thought when I see any of these headlines.

Police are trained to shoot until the threat is immobilized.
Nov 24 2014 9:03AM
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onLINE
Posts: 1013 - Karma: 423
Very sad for all parties involved. The dispatcher will likely loose their job for not telling the officers the gun might be a fake.
Nov 24 2014 9:35AM
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FreedGucci
Posts: 454 - Karma: 3,192
Kid didn't deserve it but he threatened them with what appeared to be a weapon so the cops did what they had to in order to protect themselves from a potential threat
Nov 24 2014 9:41AM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,902
El_Barto.the police did the right thing. for all we know the orange tip of the fake gun had been removed. I think that cops should have more of a green light to use deadly force when their lives are in jeopardy


This. My kid loves air soft guns and some of them look incredibly real. There are plenty of them that I have seen that do not come with the orange tip. Kids also take a sharpie and color over the orange. It would be easy to mistake one for something real. When I got my son his first air soft gun, I went through gun safety with him and laid down some very specific rules. One of which was, if he was ever holding the air soft gun and he saw a policeman, he should drop the gun and step away from it. I never let him aim at or shoot anyone with them. The main thing I made sure he understood was that if he pointed one at a cop, he would get shot.

The cop who assumes that a 12 year old holding a gun would not possibly shoot him, is the one that ends up as a strip of black tape on his fellow officer's shields.

Here's my suggestion for what it's worth. Police should offer free courses that would aimed at safe play with air soft and/or play weapons. The fire department does this with infant car seats; why can't the police do something like this? I think it would be a great community outreach. They could go to schools and talk to kids. It seems like cops across the country have a serious PR problem, and this would be one way they could improve things.
Nov 24 2014 10:58AM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
onLINEVery sad for all parties involved. The dispatcher will likely loose their job for not telling the officers the gun might be a fake.


Why would they get fired? Just because the the reporter says the gun might be fake doesn't mean it is. They officers aren't going to be like,"Hey dude, is that a real gun your holding over there? I can't quite see it. Mind if I come over and check before we start shooting each other?"

If someone pulls or reaches for a gun (real or fake) when cops are telling them to put their hands up, bad things are going to happen.
Nov 24 2014 11:05AM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51744 - Karma: 163,523
El_Barto.the police did the right thing. for all we know the orange tip of the fake gun had been removed. I think that cops should have more of a green light to use deadly force when their lives are in jeopardy


They have a green light to do pretty much whatever. Also these days they seem to scrape up some not so stellar people for the job.


OMG he looked at me better shoot him 6 million times. Life in danger omg omg
Nov 24 2014 11:44AM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
BlurstAll police should only have non lethal rounds like rubber bullets to protect the lives of innocent citizens.


El_Barto.Man, i was just trying to rustle some jimmies with my first post lol. This is a tough call, dont pull a gun on a cop is a good way to avoid being shot is my take


I really think we should start dumping money, like a shit load of it. In non lethal ways to put people down. the death toll from police officers last year in Australia was 13. amount of people police officers have killed in America is so high there's no record of it.
Nov 24 2014 12:08PM
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Lé.Skiing
Posts: 10035 - Karma: 8,128
This is a really shitty situation for all involved. Cops should have been informed it was probably fake. Kid shouldn't have pulled for his gun when they told him to put his hands up. I feel as if the guy who took the call could be charged with criminal negligence tough.

I really feel parents should be teaching their kids not to ever point guns at people. Whether its real or fake. It was what I was taught as a child, what my father was taught as a child and what his dad was taught when he was younger. Hell my dad even hates the idea of paintball, but I get the reason why.



On a separate note I would like to see cops get access to rock salt rounds. Not lethal depending where you shoot but it would sting like hell if you get shot.
Nov 24 2014 12:14PM
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Lus146
Posts: 422 - Karma: 2,282
The cops had reason to be suspicious and to take caution but if the kids did not take any action against the police then they had no right to shoot them. Some cops are idiots but I don't know the whole story. They could have painted over the orange tip and pretended to point them at the cop. Who knows, shit sucks basically. :/
Nov 24 2014 12:17PM
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Laurent.
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 25,313
inb4 it becomes a racial issue.
Nov 24 2014 12:21PM
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Kooky_Lukey
Posts: 1002 - Karma: 1,966
zzzskizzzI really think we should start dumping money, like a shit load of it. In non lethal ways to put people down. the death toll from police officers last year in Australia was 13. amount of people police officers have killed in America is so high there's no record of it.


Why do you have such a love for Australia? If you love their laws and way of life so much then move down there. And what non-lethal ways do you propose police take people down?
Nov 24 2014 12:37PM
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Lé.Skiing
Posts: 10035 - Karma: 8,128
Kooky_Lukeywhat non-lethal ways do you propose police take people down?


Search sonic weapons and ultrasonic weapons. Some can be lethal, but they can also be non lethal.

Probably not the answer he was talking about though.
Nov 24 2014 1:15PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
Lé.SkiingI feel as if the guy who took the call could be charged with criminal negligence tough.


Absolutely not. The reporter didn't know if the weapon was real or not. If the reporter was concerned enough to make a report to the police, then obviously he has some concern that it might be real. It's not up to the dispatcher to make the call whether or not it's fake.
Nov 24 2014 1:25PM
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Lé.Skiing
Posts: 10035 - Karma: 8,128
saskskierAbsolutely not. The reporter didn't know if the weapon was real or not. If the reporter was concerned enough to make a report to the police, then obviously he has some concern that it might be real. It's not up to the dispatcher to make the call whether or not it's fake.


We could argue over semantics all we want but at the end of the day dispatcher is supposed to give all the information to the cops. Why does he get to decide whats more important information to give the cops. That way the first question the cops could have asked was if the gun was real. If the kid doesn't answer before pulling a gun that looks like a real gun then thats a different story.

All I'm saying is had the dispatcher passed on the information it could have gone a lot differently. We will never know whether this little bit of information would have saved a life. The caller could have been a parent of one of the other kids hoping he police would talk some gun sense into the kid.
Nov 24 2014 1:43PM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,902
Lé.SkiingSearch sonic weapons and ultrasonic weapons. Some can be lethal, but they can also be non lethal.

Probably not the answer he was talking about though.


I have hope for these types of weapons, but who knows whether they would have worked in this situation. The police have to assume that the weapon and the threat is real. The problem with non lethal options is that they don't prevent an armed suspect from firing a weapon. If they go for a non lethal option and the person gets off a shot that hits the officers or bystanders, they are in just as much trouble as if they shot the suspect.
Nov 24 2014 1:51PM
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pat_in_the_hat
Posts: 3019 - Karma: 2,695
why are these kids getting access to semiautomatic airsoft guns?!
this would have been prevented if all guns are outlawed.

endsarcasm
Nov 24 2014 1:51PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
Lé.SkiingI really feel parents should be teaching their kids not to ever point guns at people. Whether its real or fake. It was what I was taught as a child, what my father was taught as a child and what his dad was taught when he was younger. Hell my dad even hates the idea of paintball, but I get the reason why.


gonna go out on a limb here and say there was no father in this child's life.
Nov 24 2014 2:11PM
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Aomame
Posts: 282 - Karma: 456
Yeah this kid sounds like he had a bright future ahead of him if at that age when told to put his hands up, he already reaches for a gun, fake or not.

Rubber bullets would probably be a good idea. They'd have to make you unable to buy any sort of ammo besides rubber bullets so no one could get real ammo. Hunt with a crossbow.
Nov 24 2014 2:24PM
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milk_man
Posts: 5252 - Karma: 5,978
BakerpowThey knew he was a juvenile and had a fake gun.


They didn't know it was a fake gun OP.. He was pointing it at people and he had cut off the orange tip to make it look real.



But go ahead and hop on the bandwagon of condemning police officers for doing their job.
Nov 24 2014 2:26PM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,488
AomameYeah this kid sounds like he had a bright future ahead of him if at that age when told to put his hands up, he already reaches for a gun, fake or not.

Rubber bullets would probably be a good idea. They'd have to make you unable to buy any sort of ammo besides rubber bullets so no one could get real ammo. Hunt with a crossbow.


The rubber bullets would be for the police dumb dumb. Rubber bullets for citizens would be pointless and a horrible idea
Nov 24 2014 2:28PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
Lé.SkiingWe could argue over semantics all we want but at the end of the day dispatcher is supposed to give all the information to the cops. Why does he get to decide whats more important information to give the cops. That way the first question the cops could have asked was if the gun was real. If the kid doesn't answer before pulling a gun that looks like a real gun then thats a different story.

All I'm saying is had the dispatcher passed on the information it could have gone a lot differently. We will never know whether this little bit of information would have saved a life. The caller could have been a parent of one of the other kids hoping he police would talk some gun sense into the kid.


When have you ever heard of the police asking a suspect if their weapon is real? Police are trained to assess the situation in front of them and react accordingly. Instead of putting his hands up when told, he reached for a weapon. No matter what information the police had, in that situation they have to assume the weapon is real.
Nov 24 2014 2:30PM
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~~~~~~~~
Posts: 2345 - Karma: 2,104
How come no form of negotiation takes place in these situations? Cops should be trained to deescalate situations, not that their job is to kill or be killed like they are soldiers and the public is the enemy.
Nov 24 2014 3:11PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
~~~~~~~~How come no form of negotiation takes place in these situations? Cops should be trained to deescalate situations, not that their job is to kill or be killed like they are soldiers and the public is the enemy.


Because of situation like this:

Police: "Excuse me sir. Please put your weapon down. We would like to talk about the situation you are in right now."

Suspect: Shoots police

Police: ......
Nov 24 2014 3:15PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
Kooky_LukeyWhy do you have such a love for Australia? If you love their laws and way of life so much then move down there. And what non-lethal ways do you propose police take people down?


Just an example go look at any other 1st world country it's about the same. Our police kill more people than most other countries. No idea what the stat is on China or NK but you get the point. If that cop shot that kid with a rubber bullet no one would have died and everyone still would have been safe.

I'm not saying rubber bullets are always the answer, there are going to be times you have to use a real gun. But you have some police officers that are incompetent and some that are racist. Do you see the problem with giving them a hand gun, and saying go out there and protect yourself first. Just like that cop who shot at the guy 5 times for jumping into his car to grab his drivers license. There's a better ways than real bullets when you're blindly shooting at someone.
Nov 24 2014 3:16PM
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pat_in_the_hat
Posts: 3019 - Karma: 2,695
~~~~~~~~How come no form of negotiation takes place in these situations? Cops should be trained to deescalate situations, not that their job is to kill or be killed like they are soldiers and the public is the enemy.


in my opinion, you cant deescalate a situation when the individual is reaching for their weapon.
the negotiation was when the police told him to put his hands up.
kids an idiot and deserved it.
Nov 24 2014 3:17PM
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~~~~~~~~
Posts: 2345 - Karma: 2,104
saskskierBecause of situation like this:

Police: "Excuse me sir. Please put your weapon down. We would like to talk about the situation you are in right now."

Suspect: Shoots police

Police: ......


Really? Killing someone should be the first and only option when faced with such a situation? Especially a 12 year old who is clearly not cognitively developed enough to grasp the severity of the situation? They should just be put down? There is no benefit of the doubt to be given?

Fuck, maybe I need to move Australia.
Nov 24 2014 3:24PM
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gerbear
Posts: 435 - Karma: 397
Funny how there isn't any rioting here. Oh yeah, the cop is black.
Nov 24 2014 3:34PM
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Lé.Skiing
Posts: 10035 - Karma: 8,128
saskskierWhen have you ever heard of the police asking a suspect if their weapon is real? Police are trained to assess the situation in front of them and react accordingly. Instead of putting his hands up when told, he reached for a weapon. No matter what information the police had, in that situation they have to assume the weapon is real.


I'm not saying I have all the answers, but when I hear a story like this I try and think of every possible way the death could have been prevented.

Ever heard of suicide by cop? There are things in place to prevent cops from killing people perceived as a "threat". At the end of the day this comes down to mental health issues that need to be addressed in every country. Even now after this shooting the cops involved are going to have to start going to meetings for PTSD. The police involved in this shooting are now going to have to deal with shooting a 12 year old "unarmed" boy. That's something that no one should have to deal with.



On top of all of this perhaps the companies that make air soft guns should have to follow the same rules as cap guns and water guns and stuff, which is to not look like a real gun no matter how you "modify" it. whether it's cutting off an orange tip or spray painting the whole thing black.
Nov 24 2014 3:35PM
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