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Are the pivot bindings really that good?

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gato
Posts: 5 - Karma: 90
Hey there, I am looking for new bindings and I was told that the look pivot or the rossignol FKS are super great to avoid injuries.

I was thinking about getting those because I have a little problem on one of my knees.

However, some people told me that they are not as good as they say.

I like going fast and playing around, and I ski most at the park and powder.

Do you think that it is worth getting the pivot or the FKS? And if not, which binding do you recomend for me?

I would apreciate any opinion!

Thanks
Nov 12 2014 11:37AM
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HuckNorris44
Posts: 1025 - Karma: 2,393
I love mine. Only downside i have is the brakes are not easily replaced and its a bitch bending them to fit skis wider than what they are meant for.
Nov 12 2014 1:21PM
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haggis_hunter
Posts: 399 - Karma: 207
1st off how much do you weight? If your not that burly then a 10-18 din binding is going to be utter overkill.
Nov 12 2014 1:22PM
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HuckNorris44
Posts: 1025 - Karma: 2,393
Lordf*1st off how much do you weight? If your not that burly then a 10-18 din binding is going to be utter overkill.


You know they come in a 12, 14, and 18 Din. You can get a 4 to 12 DIN FKS so weight is not an issue.
Nov 12 2014 1:28PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
they are great bindings and i love them

when people say "they're safer" they are just referring to the fact that the elastic travel and build of them means that they are known for hardly ever prematurely releasing (unlike me...hey o!!) and so people never feel the need to boost their DIN higher than it would or should be

also theyre very durable and the design has been tested and proven over the past like 30 years, but it's also worth noting that like that other guy said, the brakes aren't easy to replace
Nov 12 2014 1:31PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
Quite honestly, if you have to ask then... No.
Nov 12 2014 1:33PM
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haggis_hunter
Posts: 399 - Karma: 207
GnarcoYou know they come in a 12, 14, and 18 Din. You can get a 4 to 12 DIN FKS so weight is not an issue.


Not the same biding really, back in my day there was the 18 and 15 which are the only ones with the proper toe. The others have the different and plastic toe them.
Nov 12 2014 1:39PM
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HuckNorris44
Posts: 1025 - Karma: 2,393
Lordf*Not the same biding really, back in my day there was the 18 and 15 which are the only ones with the proper toe. The others have the different and plastic toe them.


Same exact heel piece. The 12 and 14 still have a reinforced toe. Yea, the 18's toe has a metal post and doesnt have the "dual action" release like the 12 and 14. Other than that its the exact same binding. The 18 is also much heavier. Splitting hairs really.
Nov 12 2014 1:51PM
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ghosthop
Posts: 631 - Karma: 1,027
The new salomon sth2 has greater elasticity than a pivot, if I remember right its 60mm to a pivots 48mm. As was said before, greater elasticity allows you a larger window to right yourself and avoid a release when things start to go bad without having to turn up your din.
Nov 12 2014 2:09PM
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G_Wink
Posts: 67 - Karma: 76
Amazing bindings!! overkill for most but they do help with injury prevention, the brakes do tend to find a way to bend or brake, which is very expensive and annoying to say the least.
Nov 12 2014 2:20PM
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deeznuts.
Posts: 173 - Karma: 429
They're amazing, I have look pivots on my line chronics and the rossi FKS on my pow/backcountry skis. Love them definitely reccomend
Nov 12 2014 4:40PM
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cbgski
Posts: 90 - Karma: 652
no
Nov 12 2014 5:02PM
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.FRY.
Posts: 5620 - Karma: 22,861
yes. they are great.
Nov 12 2014 5:16PM
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Oli_Kelski
Posts: 82 - Karma: 48
The other reason they prevent knee injuries is that when your foot rotates out, the pivotal heel allows your leg to rotate around the tibia, rather than the heel
Nov 12 2014 5:19PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,502
One of the biggest myths on ns along with "you can't get shin bang in full tilts" is fks/pivots are safer due to th rotating heel. They are no safer then any other bindings on the market. They do offer quite a bit of elasticity but so do most bindings these days. The big downside is the lack of easily replacing brakes. For some people this won't be an issue but if you commonly have brake issues you may want to look else where.

Really though Mr Huck was correct above dispite being down voted. If your asking about things like this then you really don't need the 180 version. If you don't need the 180 then you can more then likely ride any 12-13 din binding. The guys who need the higher end bindings will know they need them so if you unsure what you need you probably need less then you think.
Nov 12 2014 5:47PM
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kshaughn
Posts: 509 - Karma: 4,568
I've had look pivots on my last two sets of skis and have loved them. They release my boot when it needs to be and for the most part keeps my foot in when the crash isn't too bad. I've broken the brakes off a couple of times, which is a pain, but I have been able to get a replacement at local shops pretty easily.
Nov 12 2014 7:02PM
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steezy_doge
Posts: 781 - Karma: 1,718
they are good bindings but it is a bitch and a half to put them back on especially in deep snow cause you have to clean out this little hole and twist the back
Nov 12 2014 7:41PM
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SimplyClean
Posts: 556 - Karma: 1,752
Also, this year Rossi/Look is now offering replacement brake bases. They are still spendy ($75 a piece) but there's at least an option now unlike before. The only problem you can have with the brakes is if you're landing switch a lot and eject.

All things aside, they're the only binding I'll ever use and will last you 500+ days if you take good care of your equipment.

Another thing to add, which makes them more appealing and enjoyable to ski on, is it has one of the smallest mounting areas - meaning the feeling of your ski will be as true as it gets, not having a big plastic plate messing with your ski's flex pattern under your foot.
Nov 12 2014 9:23PM
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crotchvent
Posts: 1527 - Karma: 2,184
I've seen the toe pieces break on a friends pivot 12 multiple times last season took like 2-3 weeks each time to get them fixed.
Nov 12 2014 10:49PM
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SimplyClean
Posts: 556 - Karma: 1,752
COOOOPI've seen the toe pieces break on a friends pivot 12 multiple times last season took like 2-3 weeks each time to get them fixed.


They're doing it wrong then, or riding too much urban on a plastic toe.

My FKS's (not 155 or 180s) are ~15 years old and still going strong. I know plenty people who have ~500 days on theirs.
Nov 12 2014 11:16PM
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HuckNorris44
Posts: 1025 - Karma: 2,393
Ive thrashed mine for 5 years and they still work wonderfully. Never had to fix anything either.
Nov 12 2014 11:53PM
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crotchvent
Posts: 1527 - Karma: 2,184
SimplyCleanThey're doing it wrong then, or riding too much urban on a plastic toe.

My FKS's (not 155 or 180s) are ~15 years old and still going strong. I know plenty people who have ~500 days on theirs.

It is those little plastic "wings" on the toe piece that break off.
Nov 13 2014 12:33AM
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MEOWMIXXX
Posts: 549 - Karma: 2,578
Those things are bomb proof, I would recommend them.
Nov 13 2014 1:30AM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
tomPietrowskiOne of the biggest myths on ns along with "you can't get shin bang in full tilts" is fks/pivots are safer due to th rotating heel. They are no safer then any other bindings on the market. They do offer quite a bit of elasticity but so do most bindings these days. The big downside is the lack of easily replacing brakes. For some people this won't be an issue but if you commonly have brake issues you may want to look else where.

Really though Mr Huck was correct above dispite being down voted. If your asking about things like this then you really don't need the 180 version. If you don't need the 180 then you can more then likely ride any 12-13 din binding. The guys who need the higher end bindings will know they need them so if you unsure what you need you probably need less then you think.


people always nit pick this. i mean... okay, fine, ill revise it even more: FKS/pivots generally have an extremely well proven track record of not prereleasing over a longer time period than most other bindings, and therefore generally do not pose the risk of people cranking their DIN to make up for that. i think it's fair to say that that is "safer" than many other cases because of that

also i strongly disagree with your agreement with huck norris (although he's a great poster, that particular one was not). what binding you need has nothing to do with how much you know about bindings and current gear and other consumer bs. OP could be the best skier in this thread for all you know, just because he's asking for advice on bindings does not mean you can make inane claims like "if you have to ask, no." that's just nonsense
Nov 13 2014 10:11AM
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haggis_hunter
Posts: 399 - Karma: 207
SimplyCleanAnother thing to add, which makes them more appealing and enjoyable to ski on, is it has one of the smallest mounting areas - meaning the feeling of your ski will be as true as it gets, not having a big plastic plate messing with your ski's flex pattern under your foot.


Unintentional design carry over. They were originally race bindings so were built to fit the FIS rules and nothing more. The control they offer is more to do with the low stack height than anything else.
Nov 13 2014 10:16AM
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.nasty
Posts: 10581 - Karma: 11,157
tomPietrowskiReally though Mr Huck was correct above dispite being down voted.


don't ever call huck norris mr huck, the real mr huck is a legend. huck norris is a nancy.
Nov 13 2014 10:30AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
.nylesdon't ever call huck norris mr huck, the real mr huck is a legend. huck norris is a nancy.


That's not what you said last night.
Nov 13 2014 12:42PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,502
RubberSoulpeople always nit pick this. i mean... okay, fine, ill revise it even more: FKS/pivots generally have an extremely well proven track record of not prereleasing over a longer time period than most other bindings, and therefore generally do not pose the risk of people cranking their DIN to make up for that. i think it's fair to say that that is "safer" than many other cases because of that

also i strongly disagree with your agreement with huck norris (although he's a great poster, that particular one was not). what binding you need has nothing to do with how much you know about bindings and current gear and other consumer bs. OP could be the best skier in this thread for all you know, just because he's asking for advice on bindings does not mean you can make inane claims like "if you have to ask, no." that's just nonsense


Regarding your first point I don't really think it hold true. Most good bindings tees days will offer the same if not more elasticity then then fks so that argument for not having to crank your din does not really stand up when you compare them to sth2, attacks or the marker royals. Sure compared to a salomon z10 you could probably ride a lower din and have les pre releases but the z10 and fks are designed for very different skiers.

As for the second point what I would say is you can't really get to be an amazing skier without using good bindings. Once you start skiing hard enough to require te big boy bindings you just can't ride a 12 din binding. So once your at the level to require the higher level bindings you will know you need them.
Nov 13 2014 1:29PM
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elcoach
Posts: 1104 - Karma: 2,681
tomPietrowskiOne of the biggest myths on ns along with "you can't get shin bang in full tilts" is fks/pivots are safer due to th rotating heel. They are no safer then any other bindings on the market. They do offer quite a bit of elasticity but so do most bindings these days. The big downside is the lack of easily replacing brakes. For some people this won't be an issue but if you commonly have brake issues you may want to look else where.

Really though Mr Huck was correct above dispite being down voted. If your asking about things like this then you really don't need the 180 version. If you don't need the 180 then you can more then likely ride any 12-13 din binding. The guys who need the higher end bindings will know they need them so if you unsure what you need you probably need less then you think.


there you have an accurate answer , every other binding is as good as the pivot/fks .

some prefer marker or salomon (for example) rather than those ones , but if you dont have any preference it will not affect your skiing, and dont want to spend a lot of cash on this i suggest to look for deals.
Nov 13 2014 1:43PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
tomPietrowskiRegarding your first point I don't really think it hold true. Most good bindings tees days will offer the same if not more elasticity then then fks so that argument for not having to crank your din does not really stand up when you compare them to sth2, attacks or the marker royals. Sure compared to a salomon z10 you could probably ride a lower din and have les pre releases but the z10 and fks are designed for very different skiers.

As for the second point what I would say is you can't really get to be an amazing skier without using good bindings. Once you start skiing hard enough to require te big boy bindings you just can't ride a 12 din binding. So once your at the level to require the higher level bindings you will know you need them.


if youre going to nitpick at least be consistent-- you said "They are no safer then any other bindings on the market." so they all behave the exact same way?

whatever, read my responses man, i don't think i made any superlative claim about the pivot bindings or added any spin. in fact, i mostly qualified/reined in the "safety" claims about pivots

re: second point dude the OP didn't even mention din ranges, there are plenty of FKS/pivots that are 6-12 DIN. he asked about good safe bindings because he's concerned about his knees. "if you have to ask, you don't need ____" is condescending nonsense and i have no idea why you defended it
Nov 13 2014 2:16PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,502
RubberSoulif youre going to nitpick at least be consistent-- you said "They are no safer then any other bindings on the market." so they all behave the exact same way?

whatever, read my responses man, i don't think i made any superlative claim about the pivot bindings or added any spin. in fact, i mostly qualified/reined in the "safety" claims about pivots

re: second point dude the OP didn't even mention din ranges, there are plenty of FKS/pivots that are 6-12 DIN. he asked about good safe bindings because he's concerned about his knees. "if you have to ask, you don't need ____" is condescending nonsense and i have no idea why you defended it


Not being safer and behaving the same way is not the same thing. This is the part most people don't get.

I'm not having a go at you at all. You actually responses to my post not the other way round. Fks are good for sure but seeing people claiming they are way safer is what I wanted to clear up.

As for te second point you may not like it but it has been that way in the industry for years. If your not sure you need somthing you probably don't. So what this means for the op is he could take his pick of pretty much any 12-13 din binding which means he can have a good selection some of which may be even better then what he was initially looking at.
Nov 13 2014 2:23PM
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SimplyClean
Posts: 556 - Karma: 1,752
^^ Yeah this may be an example of a thread where the OP doesn't know much about gear, and gets very detailed/tech oriented answers that may be way over his head. I only say this due to post count, and him not replying or asking any more questions regarding the topic.

Regardless, this thread now has some good info FKS/pivots that can hopefully help future skiers that are looking to learn or buy these bindings.
Nov 13 2014 3:04PM
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[nick]
Posts: 1043 - Karma: 423
ghosthopThe new salomon sth2 has greater elasticity than a pivot, if I remember right its 60mm to a pivots 48mm. As was said before, greater elasticity allows you a larger window to right yourself and avoid a release when things start to go bad without having to turn up your din.


I'm not sure where you pulled this info from, but it's not correct. Elastic travel is the vertical and lateral movements before the skier releases. You're talking 6 and 4.8cm, no way jose.

The correct figures are 25mm of vertical travel in the heel and 45mm lateral in the toe for the fks. I can't find any published figures for the STH2. Even if the STH2 were to have more than the fks, you're still spreading misinformation.
Nov 13 2014 4:00PM
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[nick]
Posts: 1043 - Karma: 423
Lordf*Unintentional design carry over. They were originally race bindings so were built to fit the FIS rules and nothing more. The control they offer is more to do with the low stack height than anything else.


I think both of your points are correct but somewhat unrelated. Yes the small mounting footprint does allow for a more natural flex which translates to greater stored energy during a carve and greater response/pop when exiting the carve. I believe the lower stack height increases the edge to edge response of a ski and provides a better feel for rails/boxes in freestyle use. Either way the binding design has been around in some form for the last 50 years or so. The heel piece is rooted in the Look N17 bindings that were released in the early 60's and the mechanics are essentially the same. The toe piece is what has seen the most evolution.

It's also worth noting that in the 90's, Salomon engineers found that the elastic travel of a binding had the second greatest impact on ski flex next to mounting footprint.
Nov 13 2014 4:19PM
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ghosthop
Posts: 631 - Karma: 1,027
[nick]I'm not sure where you pulled this info from, but it's not correct. Elastic travel is the vertical and lateral movements before the skier releases. You're talking 6 and 4.8cm, no way jose.

The correct figures are 25mm of vertical travel in the heel and 45mm lateral in the toe for the fks. I can't find any published figures for the STH2. Even if the STH2 were to have more than the fks, you're still spreading misinformation.


I dunno who downvoted nick, but he's right, like I said, "if I remember", I looked into it last night and bummer about being unable to edit posts on ns, but w/e

info from here


the lateral travel of the full-drive (pivot 12 and 14) toe is 45 mm, race toe(pivot 15 and 18) is 40mm

sth2 lateral travel is 52 mm

pivot heel elastic travel is 25 mm
sth2 heel elastic travel is 28mm

so originally said, if OP is interested in a binding that has a higher elastic travel to reduce prerelease and therefore run a lower din for knee safety, the sth2 is worth looking at
Nov 13 2014 5:49PM
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bigskier1010
Posts: 126 - Karma: 187
SimplyCleanThey're doing it wrong then, or riding too much urban on a plastic toe.

My FKS's (not 155 or 180s) are ~15 years old and still going strong. I know plenty people who have ~500 days on theirs.


My look pivot 12 are 10?years old , about 150 days on em. Remounting them now onto a new atomic alibi .
Nov 14 2014 12:12AM
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kirbstopper
Posts: 322 - Karma: 662
I have personally found that FKS/PIVOT release from the toe laterally smoother than any other brand as the heel rotates with the boot. Not to say this is safer, but other brands I have tried (Salomon STH, Marker Jester) are more of an abrupt kick out when the toe releases laterally.

PS. I am not claiming that the heel releases any different than any other bindings.

After trying Look/Rossi, Salomon, and Markers high end bindings in and outside of the park, I can personally run my din lower on the Look/Rossi with less pre releases. Which to me is beneficial with two previously blown ACLs.

Also not that everybody should be doing this, but the brakes are replaceable without replacing the whole lower body. Although it is a fairly finicky process, but there are tutorial videos that show exactly how to do this.

Take this all with a grain of salt because everybody makes a good binding these days that will get the job done, and it just comes down to opinion. Just make sure you are getting something in the appropriate DIN range.
Nov 14 2014 2:51AM
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shermthebear
Posts: 35 - Karma: 101
I have an idea buy a snowboard
Nov 14 2014 6:26AM
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[nick]
Posts: 1043 - Karma: 423
Also not that everybody should be doing this, but the brakes are replaceable without replacing the whole lower body. Although it is a fairly finicky process, but there are tutorial videos that show exactly how to do this.


Yup, that's how we always used to do it. It's a shame that the new generation of skiers won't know the struggle of trying to re-assemble with the spring fighting you the whole way.
Nov 14 2014 6:27AM
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[nick]
Posts: 1043 - Karma: 423
It's pretty impressive that the basic mechanics and advertising strategy haven't changed for 40 years.

Plus you can't beat that 10 YEAR guarantee!!!

Nov 14 2014 7:38AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
You've got to love the way the FKS vs STH debate always brings it out- like once a week it's a major debate.


The truth is that FKS and STH are both fucking awesome bindings- even in the plastic iterations with lower DINs, they're great bindings they just go about doing their thing in slightly different ways- and while they are subtle, the more you use them the more you will either appreciate or hate certain nuances about them.

That's why I said "if you don't already know why you'd want either, it doesn't really matter all that much". I really like the way my FKS feel and they're what I prefer, but I also know a ton of people who feel the same about the STHs. It really is a wholly personal opinion sort of thing and you really can't fuck up unless you're in a DIN that's incorrect, your forward pressure is off, etc.


Different strokes for different folks.
Nov 14 2014 8:53AM
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gato
Posts: 5 - Karma: 90
Hey there newschoolers..
I understand that this is a very controversial topic, and that there are a lot of factors that must be taken into account while choosing the right binding.
There were some things that I had already taken into account, but there were some other things I didn't know. I learned some very important things from you guys so thanks!
After reading what you posted, and doing some research with some friends
I decided I am going for the pivot or the fks.
Thanks again to everyone!
Nov 20 2014 1:54PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,686
I currently only ski two types of bindings Look P18s and Dynafit Radicals. That said, if someone came along and gave me a pair of STH/STH2/916s, I'd ski that shit. If someone gave me a pair of jesters, or Tyrolia aaatacks, you'd see that shit for sale within a day.

The Look Pivot / Rossi FKS does offer more elasticity than any other binding. This is a motherfucking proven fact, that is testable, and has been tested. Yes, the current STH2 toe piece has greater lateral elasticity than the Pivot 18 toe piece. As a functioning unit however, the Pivot series binding offers more elasticity, due to the toe and heel working together, and the greater elasticity offered in the heel piece.

I also like the turntables for their tight mounting pattern (marker is wrong, mount pattern width is more or less irrelevant, if your skis are half decent) that creates less of a dead spot in the ski under the heel.

Other advantages are the heel's lateral stirrups that prevent a shock release, the toe's solid metal design (15/18 only), and increased downward pressure though the ski.

Again, I'd ski STH2/STH/916s in a heartbeat if someone gave them to me, but I will only buy P18s. I'd also ski a marker M16 or M20, but not a jester - those ski like shit.
Nov 20 2014 2:13PM
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cool_name
Posts: 4295 - Karma: 3,131
Do the sths come in bright orange though?
Nov 20 2014 2:31PM
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NMMedia
Posts: 982 - Karma: 1,700
I'm not going to make any claims about added safety etc. because that shit is hard to prove and only sparks arguments. All I have to say is I put over 100 days of hard skiing on jumps, ice, rails, powder, and urban in sub 0 Minnesota temperatures (that have produced cracks in all my other bindings due to them becoming brittle in the extreme temperatures) just last season on my FKS and other than one switch crash that bent a brake had no issues with them. I would recommend them to anyone. The fact that the design has stayed the same for so long and is still loved by so many skiers says it all in my mind. But in the end pick whats right for your weight and skill level, thats the most important thing when buying a binding.
Nov 20 2014 4:37PM
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Park.
Posts: 2480 - Karma: 4,582
cool_nameDo the sths come in bright orange though?


close, its bright yellow.
Nov 20 2014 4:47PM
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Caucasian_Asian
Posts: 2447 - Karma: 1,665
cool_nameDo the sths come in bright orange though?


No.

But 916s came in blaaaaaaaack.
Nov 20 2014 9:12PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
I just picked up a brand spanking new pair of FKS 180's at a ski swap for $212 dollars, cash. After haggling with the booth just for kicks i got them down to a price i just couldnt say no to. Its funny that my outerwear is very understated these days but my bindings will be flashy as fuck!

Looks like ill be taking the STH16s off the big skis, and throwing on the FKS'(i was already approaching the upper limit of the STH's anyways). Its a shame that i wont have the STH's on any skis this year, but none of my other skis have any mountings left. Oh well, they will go on my new pair of all mtn fun skis next year.

Im exited to see what the hype is all about!
Nov 21 2014 2:45AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
Caucasian_AsianNo.

But 916s came in blaaaaaaaack.




*stealth bomber
Nov 21 2014 9:50AM
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Muggydude
Posts: 701 - Karma: 383
californiagrownI just picked up a brand spanking new pair of FKS 180's at a ski swap for $212 dollars, cash. After haggling with the booth just for kicks i got them down to a price i just couldnt say no to. Its funny that my outerwear is very understated these days but my bindings will be flashy as fuck!

Looks like ill be taking the STH16s off the big skis, and throwing on the FKS'(i was already approaching the upper limit of the STH's anyways). Its a shame that i wont have the STH's on any skis this year, but none of my other skis have any mountings left. Oh well, they will go on my new pair of all mtn fun skis next year.

Im exited to see what the hype is all about!


You must be one seriously big dude who can seriously throw down if you are approaching the limit on a 16 DIN binding.

Just bought the bindings because? Haha I don't really see the point in drilling a new set of holes in some skis just to try out new bindings... Especially when you already have STH 16s (.
Nov 21 2014 11:27PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
MuggydudeYou must be one seriously big dude who can seriously throw down if you are approaching the limit on a 16 DIN binding.

Just bought the bindings because? Haha I don't really see the point in drilling a new set of holes in some skis just to try out new bindings... Especially when you already have STH 16s (.


im 6'4" 205lbs. Also i ride my big skis at a 14.5 DIN because i am only charging on them- theyre big, heavy, and do not like making shorter turns, but they crush charging. I dont think i throw down all that hard- i fast fast, but im not sending anything larger than 10 feet unless the snow is good, and even then ill hot tub anything over 25-30 ft if the landing is at all flattish haha.

My other skis are, frankly, too small for me and i only have PX12s, consequently i ride much more mellow on them- 11-11.5. Im getting a new pair of sticks this winter or summer, and needed new bindings to go on em. I figured $200 for brand new FKS 180 XXLs was about as good as i was going to get for a bomber 16+ DIN binding with wide brakes. Now i dont't have to shop for bindings and am good to go when i find the right deal on the right skis. Its not like i didnt need them haha.
Nov 22 2014 12:18AM
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