Fulltilt fanbois

tomPietrowskiWhen I worked in a shop last season which sold full tilts I often got people in wanting to try them. However only 3 people bought them all season after trying equivalent boots from other brands. That should tell you quite a bit

KrotchI can agree with this. Kids would come in all the time last year and just buy FT without wanting to try them on. Of course I'd still have them try them on even though they were going to buy them regardless. We used to sell FT as our only freeride/park boot. Now we have Nordica, Dalbello, & Salomon thankfully. Should be interesting to see how the others sell in comparison.

tomPietrowskiI would guess you will see sales drop quite a bit. Full tilts suck to fit. There is less you can do with the shells compared to overlap boots, you have to find insoles to try them with as they don't come with any and getting the footbed to sit square in the squishy base of those liners is hard. Once you let people know this and let them feel boots from other brands id be surprised if most still go full tilt. Fit wise they are nothin special just a fairly roomy mid volume fit. The other weird thing is the sizing. Weird boots but I do get why some people like them.

gnar_whalI actually tried on Salomons, Nordicas, and a few other brands and I was somewhat surprised that the full tilts felt the best. I guess everybody is different

tomPietrowskiWhen I worked in a shop last season which sold full tilts I often got people in wanting to try them. However only 3 people bought them all season after trying equivalent boots from other brands. That should tell you quite a bit

jadavisYou realize this could be said of any boot. There are a decent amount of boot manufacturers and their boots are right for a particular person as everyone has a slightly different foot. How many Dalbellos, Technicas, Salomons, Langes, Nordicas, Black Diamonds, Scarpas, Heads, K2s, or Rossignols did you sell? Full Tilts happen to work well for those with narrow straight feet and ankles that are smaller than their calves compared to normal. They are also geared towards a group of consumers that are a minority among skiers and have a design that is different from what a lot of people expect. Do the math... why would you expect to sell many? The only things I would bang them for are a lack of a walk mode, which only matters if you care for touring, and the buckles aren't as reliable. From an engineering standpoint, the cable design certainly does minimize dead spots where the liners aren't exerting pressure on your foot and this is noticeable if they fit you right.

Oh and footbeds aren't always necessary in them assuming they fit your feet nice and snug... I'd actually say their design lends itself to not using footbeds. If they fit right there really won't be anywhere for your foot to go.

KrotchWhat Tom and I are getting at (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that we see so many customers hellbent on getting Full Tilts because they see pros with them (or a whole host of other reasons) that unless you get another boot on their foot for comparison at least, they would be buying a boot that may or may not fit them properly. We aren't trying to say FT is complete shit but the fact is they don't fit everyones foot like people perceive them to.

jadavisYou realize this could be said of any boot. There are a decent amount of boot manufacturers and their boots are right for a particular person as everyone has a slightly different foot. How many Dalbellos, Technicas, Salomons, Langes, Nordicas, Black Diamonds, Scarpas, Heads, K2s, or Rossignols did you sell? Full Tilts happen to work well for those with narrow straight feet and ankles that are smaller than their calves compared to normal. They are also geared towards a group of consumers that are a minority among skiers and have a design that is different from what a lot of people expect. Do the math... why would you expect to sell many? The only things I would bang them for are a lack of a walk mode, which only matters if you care for touring, and the buckles aren't as reliable. From an engineering standpoint, the cable design certainly does minimize dead spots where the liners aren't exerting pressure on your foot and this is noticeable if they fit you right.

Oh and footbeds aren't always necessary in them assuming they fit your feet nice and snug... I'd actually say their design lends itself to not using footbeds. If they fit right there really won't be anywhere for your foot to go.

tomPietrowskiWith regard to how many of the boots you listed did we sell, plenty a lot more then full tilt. Full tilt made up for less then 1% of sales. And it was not for lack of trying to sell them. I had got them in the shop so I had to try to sell them. But I'm not going to force boots onto people I just give them the options and it has been my experience that people don't choose full tilts over other brands. The fit is not so differnt that there are not other boots offerin the same fit. The lack of work that can be done to the shells is a big downside too and puts off some people who are used to getting boots slightly modified to fit correctly.

And as for not needin footbeds well that is just silly. I actually had the full tilt rep try to say the same thing to my staff. Just goes to show the sort of level they expect thier boots to be fitted too.

jadavisLets do some quick math. Say 10% of the people who come in ask to try on Full Tilts. Now lets say that Full Tilts fit 10% of all people. If those two assumptions are valid, which they likely are, then you would expect to sell Full Tilts to something on the order of 1% of customers. This isn't exact obviously, but those sales numbers are enough to statistically say that Full Tilts are inferior.

Not needing footbeds is definitely not silly. I bet the Full Tilt rep is right as long as the boots fit the foot they are being thrown on properly. I've got a lot of days on mine and they don't need any added support. They have spent a lot more time thinking about the design of their boots than you have. I would also be willing to bet that the supplier of your footbeds has said that every boot should have a custom footbed. You sound like a footbed sales brochure every time you mention them. Foot support is properly constraining your foot. If a boot can properly constrain your foot without a footbed there is really no reason to buy them. Unless you have put a significant amount of time in of Full Tilts and they happen to fit you well your opinion on footbeds in them is slightly invalid.

j-brattonI also got fitted for a pair of FT's. They felt super comfy in the shop, fit snug as a glove and I loved the liner. Rode down the hill once or twice with them and felt like a champ. Then about my third time down, my feet started cramping like no other. After tons of adjusting and tweaking with different footbeds, looks like the only way for me to go is to get some custom fitted footbeds. I wonder if anyone else has had this problem?

jadavisLets do some quick math. Say 10% of the people who come in ask to try on Full Tilts. Now lets say that Full Tilts fit 10% of all people. If those two assumptions are valid, which they likely are, then you would expect to sell Full Tilts to something on the order of 1% of customers. This isn't exact obviously, but those sales numbers are enough to statistically say that Full Tilts are inferior.

Not needing footbeds is definitely not silly. I bet the Full Tilt rep is right as long as the boots fit the foot they are being thrown on properly. I've got a lot of days on mine and they don't need any added support. They have spent a lot more time thinking about the design of their boots than you have. I would also be willing to bet that the supplier of your footbeds has said that every boot should have a custom footbed. You sound like a footbed sales brochure every time you mention them. Foot support is properly constraining your foot. If a boot can properly constrain your foot without a footbed there is really no reason to buy them. Unless you have put a significant amount of time in of Full Tilts and they happen to fit you well your opinion on footbeds in them is slightly invalid.

rolliei got fitted for fts with my skinny ass high arched feet. i got a pair of classics for cheaper than i could find any pair of kryptons (my previous boot). turns out i love my fts, the fit feels a lot like my krypton just a bit more snug, and quite a bit lighter. They're comfy boots and i got em for a great deal, i really dont understand all the hate towards full tilt on NS, they make a great boot. If it dont fit, dont buy it, dont blame it on FT. I used to have a fat boner for spks but got kryptons b/c they fit my foot. now i always look for a boot w/ similar construction, which brought me to full tilt.

so if you got fitted for fts, and they feel like they give you the right fit, get them, unless theres a boot that also fits you with a better price.

don't let ns hate fuel your decision

KrotchThe "hate" for FT on NS comes from so many kids buying them solely because they see Tom or any other pros rocking them and they want to be just like them, not because they fit properly. Like I said before, I've seen it time and time again where kids go and buy FT because they are all on the hype train only to later come back during the year and say their feet hurt because they dont fit properly.

tomPietrowskiIt not as simple as your making it out to be. We tried full tilts I people who fitted salomon xpros or Lange rx ect a tey are a very similar fit. The xpro was the highest selling boot world wide last season. So we were trying full tilt in plenty of feet it's just the features and also ease of use are not there I the same way they are with other more modern boots.

With regards to footbeds I'll te and explain why they are needed. If most people stand with no surport then they will stand in a pronated position. This is true for upwards of 90% of the worlds population. When the foot is pronated the tib an fib rotate inwards dropping the inner ankle. Thi position mean every time you flex forward the knee is traveling inwards and not I a planar manner needed to match the cuff of te boot. The only way to effectively reposition the foot so that the foot is level an the knee tracks correctly is by using surport under the foot. An intuition liner can not do this as it uses equal thickness material across the whole bottom of te foot. So if you are using no footbeds you will not be in an optimal position in the boot. Further more when your foot pronates it's luckily that it extend slighty. You may have wondered why fitters measure you both sat down an stood up. This is to asses the difference in size between weighted and unweighted. For most people the foot will extend 5-10mm which is a whole size in ski boots. So unless you are using a footbed it's unluckily you are in the correct size boot. Nothing in a full tilt or any other boot on the market for that matter can help realign the foot and it's for this reason that there are so many companies focused soley on producing footbeds. Like it or not but they are needed in all boots to get the best fit. Hopefully that explains footbeds and their need a bit more to you but if you have any questions on there use please let me know.

SessionYou trying to argue about footbeds makes you sound like a fucking retard. Everything you say is counter to the conventional wisdom when it comes to proper foot alignment in a ski boot. Furthermore, quoting a rep makes you look like an even bigger moron. Reps do one thing, and that is push whoever they are repping. Every see a rep switch companies? All of a sudden they are selling the NEW best product ever.

jadavisNot needing footbeds is definitely not silly. I bet the Full Tilt rep is right as long as the boots fit the foot they are being thrown on properly. I've got a lot of days on mine and they don't need any added support. They have spent a lot more time thinking about the design of their boots than you have. I would also be willing to bet that the supplier of your footbeds has said that every boot should have a custom footbed. You sound like a footbed sales brochure every time you mention them. Foot support is properly constraining your foot. If a boot can properly constrain your foot without a footbed there is really no reason to buy them. Unless you have put a significant amount of time in of Full Tilts and they happen to fit you well your opinion on footbeds in them is slightly invalid.

onenerdykidWell, coming from someone who actually does design ski boots- having footbeds is way more beneficial than not having them. "Need" may be a strong word but I would definitely say if you are not using footbeds then you are completely wasting your time, especially in boots that have nice moldable liners.

Let's imagine that you feel like your boots fit you fine. You have no pain, no pressure points, no shinbang, etc. Should you still wear footbeds? Absolutely yes. Here's why: imagine your boot is like a brand new sports car. It feels good, looks pretty dope, and your friends all nod in approval when you go by. Your new sports car, however, naturally comes with the steering from an old Buick- it's not responsive, it's sloppy, and there is delay between the time you move and the car reacts. This is what your boot is like. Your foot is ALWAYS more flexible than the rigid plastic shell and it will therefore move and twist inside the boot when skiing. Your foot will behave like a wet rag getting twisted, especially once you apply the torque of a 6 foot lever arm called a ski to it.

Footbeds create the proper interface between your flexible foot and the rigid shell surrounding your foot. They allow your flexible foot that is built for walking to properly work with a rigid cast designed for sliding down a frozen slope. You will be far more efficient, have more powerful skiing, and be in more control in all aspects of skiing. Your turns will be more powerful, your butters and presses will require less effort and twisting of your body. In general, it will create a way more efficient, comfortable, and powerful fit.

So in short- no, you don't need footbeds in your ski boot just as you don't need to have proper steering in your sports car. Sure it's a waste, but it's possible to still use it. But ultimately, since you just paid for the latest and greatest ski boot technology, you should maximize its potential and not waste it away. For that reason alone you should invest in proper footbeds.

jadavisIf you are designing boots I'm assuming you have some sort of engineering background so you should know it's never as black and white as "just add this and it'll be awesome".

jadavisThe point I am trying to convey is that I understand all of this and know what "good steering" as you call it feels like and my boots happen to feel that good without footbeds. If they would cost me money and not increase performance why would I buy them? I prefer the philosophy where I figure out if I need something before I buy it. I've had custom work done on boots before and these happen to not need it so there's no reason to buy it. If you are designing boots I'm assuming you have some sort of engineering background so you should know it's never as black and white as "just add this and it'll be awesome".

jadavisThe point I am trying to convey is that I understand all of this and know what "good steering" as you call it feels like and my boots happen to feel that good without footbeds. If they would cost me money and not increase performance why would I buy them? I prefer the philosophy where I figure out if I need something before I buy it. I've had custom work done on boots before and these happen to not need it so there's no reason to buy it. If you are designing boots I'm assuming you have some sort of engineering background so you should know it's never as black and white as "just add this and it'll be awesome".

tomPietrowskiCan I ask if you have ever had boots professionally fitted with custom footbeds ect? You say you know what a good boot feels like but if you have never had a really well fitted boot you may be surprised how good they could actually feel. I have had countless customers be sceptical about spending extra on footbeds as like you they think they have had good fits without. Pretty much without exception though they all prefer the fit with footbeds.

tomPietrowskiCan I ask if you have ever had boots professionally fitted with custom footbeds ect? You say you know what a good boot feels like but if you have never had a really well fitted boot you may be surprised how good they could actually feel. I have had countless customers be sceptical about spending extra on footbeds as like you they think they have had good fits without. Pretty much without exception though they all prefer the fit with footbeds.

jadavisYes I have. The last pair of boots I had were and it helped a lot. I'm not skeptical of them because in some boots they work, but if they don't help a in a pair of boots is there anything wrong with that? People keep phrasing it as if they will always make your feet happier and help your control, but that's just not the case. Sure with a lot of boots they do, but not with all boots. Most people also like to try on boots that are too big for their feet. I'm not really sure what people don't understand about what I'm saying, though. These boots would not fit or feel any better on my feet with footbeds. It's as simple as that. If they did I would be in a dream world where ski boots are impossibly wonderful.

tomPietrowskiThe fact that you would not have room in the boots if your foot was put into a neutral just further shows perhaps these boots don't fit as well as you think. Allowing for space when the foot is neutral in the shell check is super important and if you don't have room to align the foot they simply are not the correct boot for you. But overall if you are happy with the fit that is all that matters. We can only suggest to you and others reading this thread what would help give the optimal fit.

jadavisI already have a neutral foot. I've had that checked a handful of times for ski boots and running shoes. Shell fit was tight but not unreasonably tight. No room for play but I still have circulation.

tomPietrowskiIt may well be close to neutral when you stand but put the loads through the foot that are associated with skiing and they will almost certainly change. But any way you seem happy with your boot so that is all that matters.

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jadavisThey don't change under the loads of running, which people always underestimate greatly...

NegromancerI don't understand why you are arguing still.

Andrew_MPick a fight about fitting boots with someone that gets paid to fit boots...great idea.

jadavisThis is why it's fun haha. Arguing with someone who knows jack shit is boring as all hell. Can't anyone enjoy a good argument? My only point is there are very specific instances where maybe footbeds aren't worth the cash. That's impossible to deny because nothing is the case 100% of the time. It's far more interesting to disagree with some stuff from time to time. Maybe some of you should try it.

tomPietrowskiIt's fine to have a difference of opinion as long as you have some facts to back up what you are saying. Just saying some boots don't require footbeds when all other evidence indicates that is incorrect is not helping anyone.

I love having boot fitting discussions though so it's always good to discuss the pros and cons of differnt approaches to fitting.

jadavisMy facts to back it up are that I have put in countless days on a pair of boots without beds and can honestly tell you they wouldn't improve their performance. That's about as concrete as it gets. There's no way to say that's untrue unless you have the ability to relive all my ski days in my head. All the theoretical knowledge in the world can't disprove reality no matter how you look at it. I've stated that I understand what a solid boot that performs well feels like and they have been on par with that.

They way I see it (and this is based off skiing in these boots) is that the intuition liner is not designed to use footbeds and should be treated as such. The squishy/thick liner under the foot undermines adding any aftermarket foot support because the liner lacks rigidity there. Without a bed the liner conforms relatively well to you sole and this is works well for providing support as long as your arches aren't collapsing, your ankles don't roll, and the fit is snug. The key to this working is that the liner conforms to your foot, which is how footbeds help keep your foot from sliding. In the case I've described extra foot support is not necessary because the feet already absorb force through the proper load paths, so the main purpose of your footbed/liner is to prevent your foot from moving while remaining as comfortable as ski boots can reasonably be.

Also adding footbeds won't lessen the impacts associated with sending the gnar, they just redistribute the load over your foot (which as a said above might not always be necessary). If you land with a force of 2 g's then your body will absorb a force of 2 g's.

jadavisMy facts to back it up are that I have put in countless days on a pair of boots without beds and can honestly tell you they wouldn't improve their performance. That's about as concrete as it gets. There's no way to say that's untrue unless you have the ability to relive all my ski days in my head. All the theoretical knowledge in the world can't disprove reality no matter how you look at it. I've stated that I understand what a solid boot that performs well feels like and they have been on par with that.

They way I see it (and this is based off skiing in these boots) is that the intuition liner is not designed to use footbeds and should be treated as such. The squishy/thick liner under the foot undermines adding any aftermarket foot support because the liner lacks rigidity there. Without a bed the liner conforms relatively well to you sole and this is works well for providing support as long as your arches aren't collapsing, your ankles don't roll, and the fit is snug. The key to this working is that the liner conforms to your foot, which is how footbeds help keep your foot from sliding. In the case I've described extra foot support is not necessary because the feet already absorb force through the proper load paths, so the main purpose of your footbed/liner is to prevent your foot from moving while remaining as comfortable as ski boots can reasonably be.

Also adding footbeds won't lessen the impacts associated with sending the gnar, they just redistribute the load over your foot (which as a said above might not always be necessary). If you land with a force of 2 g's then your body will absorb a force of 2 g's.

jadavisMy facts to back it up are that I have put in countless days on a pair of boots without beds and can honestly tell you they wouldn't improve their performance. That's about as concrete as it gets.