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Alta is for Everyone: The Bjorn Leines Interview

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mafoost
Posts: 21 - Karma: 61
http://snowboardmag.com/stories/alta-everyone-bjorn-leines-interview

I know that this is a serious "first world problem", and the issue has been beaten to death, but Bjorn brings up some interesting points in the article. For example:

"So they claim it’s a business decision to not allow snowboarding but the fact of the matter is, their business is declining. It’s the government who is getting the benefit from the revenue generated and it’s only logical, just from a logical business standpoint, that the government would want more money for letting us use this public land. There’s no doubt that if they allowed snowboarding there, their business would exponentially grow. But they’re not motivated by money. This small group has a ton of money. They don’t care if Alta makes more money or not, that’s not what it’s about. It’s about them holding out so they have their own place so they don’t have to interact with a certain type of person, a snowboarder. There’s this old, I guess concept, or attitude, that snowboarders are just a punk idiots, jobless stoners when that’s not the reality."

Any other thoughts?
Sep 2 2014 2:21PM
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TurquoiseGrizzly
Posts: 1819 - Karma: 13,149
I hear nothing but complaining from snowboarders about Alta. 2 of my good buddies and I hiked it early October last season and they both snowboard.

Alta isn't going to change for anybody. They will always stay strictly skiing because they aren't concerned with the money aspect as you said. They re more about their reputation as a "Skiers Only" resort which puts them in an elite bracket in my opinion. If you can go this long without changing tradition, why would you?

I support Alta 100%
Sep 2 2014 2:29PM
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eheath
Posts: 61588 - Karma: 122,917
I dont understand why people still have such a fuss over alta. Snowbird/brighton/solitude are equally as good as alta when it comes to terrain. Alta is like Deer Valley, they like the way they are and they make plenty of money doing so, I doubt they will change for a long time, if ever.
Sep 2 2014 2:39PM
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TurquoiseGrizzly
Posts: 1819 - Karma: 13,149
pussyfooterI dont understand why people still have such a fuss over alta. Snowbird/brighton/solitude are equally as good as alta when it comes to terrain. Alta is like Deer Valley, they like the way they are and they make plenty of money doing so, I doubt they will change for a long time, if ever.


Agreed. They shouldn't have to change. People want what they can't have even more. Anything you ride in the cottonwoods are going to be next level skiing. Just because one won't let you ride their lifts doesn't mean they get more snow!

Why complain when you could use that time to ski?
Sep 2 2014 2:41PM
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wasatch_rat
Posts: 1772 - Karma: 2,951
GrizzlyBurrI hear nothing but complaining from snowboarders about Alta. 2 of my good buddies and I hiked it early October last season and they both snowboard.

Alta isn't going to change for anybody. They will always stay strictly skiing because they aren't concerned with the money aspect as you said. They re more about their reputation as a "Skiers Only" resort which puts them in an elite bracket in my opinion. If you can go this long without changing tradition, why would you?

I support Alta 100%


because that tradition prevents people from shredding together and inhibits alta's business. why allow mono skiers but not snowboarders? its an incredibly arbitrary decision that only serves stuffy old people with a negative opinion of snowboarders as out of control stoner punks. well there are plenty of out of control stoner punks on skis so even if that opinion of snowboarders was based in reality it really isn't a reason to discriminate. hell, even deer valley is entertaining the idea of allowing snowboarders because lots of upper class older guys are on boards now. tradition in and of itself is not a virtue, especially when that tradition separates people based on ridiculous prejudices.
Sep 2 2014 2:45PM
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filipoio
Posts: 293 - Karma: 1,569
We are all the same: Both skiers and snowboarders are on the mountain to have a good time. Not allowing snowboarders in the resort is just PURE STUPIDITY.

And yes, I am a skier.
Sep 2 2014 2:57PM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
Its a private resort. They can do what they want. Its not like they are discriminating against race, religion, etc. I could see why a local would be really pissed off though. A top notch resort that a snowboarder could never ride...probably would get me pissed off too if I lived in the area.
Sep 2 2014 3:03PM
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TurquoiseGrizzly
Posts: 1819 - Karma: 13,149
karlmarxbecause that tradition prevents people from shredding together and inhibits alta's business. why allow mono skiers but not snowboarders? its an incredibly arbitrary decision that only serves stuffy old people with a negative opinion of snowboarders as out of control stoner punks. well there are plenty of out of control stoner punks on skis so even if that opinion of snowboarders was based in reality it really isn't a reason to discriminate. hell, even deer valley is entertaining the idea of allowing snowboarders because lots of upper class older guys are on boards now. tradition in and of itself is not a virtue, especially when that tradition separates people based on ridiculous prejudices.


I didn't say that what the vets at Alta think is accurate because I know plenty of weed smokin ski punks, but if they want to keep boarders out that's what they are going to do regardless. Deer Valley isn't worth skiing in the first place so even if they did their profit wouldn't gain much because people go there for the resort more than they do for skiing. I believe in skiers and snowboarders riding together, but if Alta doesn't believe it, and doesn't, they won't change.
Sep 2 2014 3:05PM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
why havent snowboarders bought a snowboard only hill yet and shut the fuck up ?
Sep 2 2014 4:07PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
smuggswhy havent snowboarders bought a snowboard only hill yet and shut the fuck up ?


because two wrongs don't make a right, that's insanely expensive, and that doesn't solve the problem they have..

i'll be the first to admit that my knee jerk reaction to this whole issue is "who cares?" or "what a first world problem"

and while i do feel that way, i think we have to realize that isn't actually a position on the issue--it's simply not caring. it's like when people think they're offering something to the NSA debates by saying something like "well i don't care." that's terrific that it doesn't affect you but it does not mean that you have any business weighing in on the issue as if that's an argument that should be considered by those involved. if you consider "who cares?" a valid argument, you could conceivably use that in any argument ever, because when it comes down to it, you can make a reductive appraisal of literally anything and claim it "doesn't really matter."

is this whole issue not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things? yeah. do i think the snowboarders could better spend their time doing other things? yeah. but i think snowboarders should have a right to ride alta and i think the arguments are against it are very weak and disingenuous.
Sep 2 2014 4:24PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
oh and bjorn leines is a certified badass. alta-related tidbit: he's the dude standing in the middle of chad's gap with his hands up cheering tanner as he switch 9s it in some of the pictures from that sesh. and he also did a cab 9 over it like tanner
Sep 2 2014 4:26PM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
RubberSoulbecause two wrongs don't make a right, that's insanely expensive, and that doesn't solve the problem they have..

i'll be the first to admit that my knee jerk reaction to this whole issue is "who cares?" or "what a first world problem"

and while i do feel that way, i think we have to realize that isn't actually a position on the issue--it's simply not caring. it's like when people think they're offering something to the NSA debates by saying something like "well i don't care." that's terrific that it doesn't affect you but it does not mean that you have any business weighing in on the issue as if that's an argument that should be considered by those involved. if you consider "who cares?" a valid argument, you could conceivably use that in any argument ever, because when it comes down to it, you can make a reductive appraisal of literally anything and claim it "doesn't really matter."

is this whole issue not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things? yeah. do i think the snowboarders could better spend their time doing other things? yeah. but i think snowboarders should have a right to ride alta and i think the arguments are against it are very weak and disingenuous.


lets stop a minute and think..... there is a larger group of people than snowboarders that is discriminated against everyday at every ski slope in the nation.

ill give yall a minute......

poor people, there are people who cant ride chairlifts because they are poor. now if everyone in the world has a right to do anything they want and not care what a business has to say about its business, then how can a business be allowed to not let poor people use its services ?

alta regulates tons of things. good luck walking your dog up there, oh swimming is illegal too i bet the swimmers are going fucking ballistic because they cant swim legally in cecret lake, its also against the law to leave a building at certain times, and its also illegal to hike and backcountry ski sometimes between midnight and 830 am. its also illegal to hike alta ski lifts with boots, sleds, snowboards, or skis.

snowboarders are a fucking drop in the bucket
Sep 2 2014 6:48PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
smuggslets stop a minute and think..... there is a larger group of people than snowboarders that is discriminated against everyday at every ski slope in the nation.

ill give yall a minute......

poor people, there are people who cant ride chairlifts because they are poor. now if everyone in the world has a right to do anything they want and not care what a business has to say about its business, then how can a business be allowed to not let poor people use its services ?

alta regulates tons of things. good luck walking your dog up there, oh swimming is illegal too i bet the swimmers are going fucking ballistic because they cant swim legally in cecret lake, its also against the law to leave a building at certain times, and its also illegal to hike and backcountry ski sometimes between midnight and 830 am. its also illegal to hike alta ski lifts with boots, sleds, snowboards, or skis.

snowboarders are a fucking drop in the bucket


those are false equivalencies. every business in the world doesn't let people too poor to afford the price of the good or service to participate--that's the most basic concept of a business. snowboarders are clearly ready and willing to pay the same ticket price skiers do

the rest of what you mention i don't feel like investigating but i'd imagine those are safety/health etc issues. if the case hinges on making an argument regarding health and safety, then i think they will lose. there are certainly places where skiers have advantages over snowboarders but i can't imagine there are any situations in lift serviced terrain that will preclude a snowboarder's safe passage. if jeremy jones can do everything he does with snowboard gear i don't think people will be able to claim a snowboarder lacks any safety minimums going up the lift and riding down.

there's not enough of a difference between gear there, it's not equivalent to them telling me i can't ride alta on my inner tube

to summarize, i don't care at all but i have a hard time thinking of reasons for alta's policy that will hold up in court. guess we'll see
Sep 2 2014 7:00PM
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Al.Capone
Posts: 661 - Karma: 2,779
karlmarxits an incredibly arbitrary decision that only serves stuffy old people with a negative opinion of snowboarders as out of control stoner punks.


Call me an out of control stoner but I'm 100% for alta staying just skiing.
Sep 2 2014 7:14PM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
jeremy jones can ride alta, but the average snowboarder no way.

average snowboarders will clog up, catch edges, cause accidents and slow down the already slow traverses and really turn the place into just traverses, then also boot pack up and break the side steps. you dont go to the top of alta, you go to the side of alta you have to traverse to everything except very few groomer runs.

snowboards are toys to go downhill and skis are tools to get around the mountain for 20 centuries. alta demands the right tool for the job.

if they can tell poor people they cant be there they have as much right to tell any other non protecteded class.
Sep 2 2014 7:18PM
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eheath
Posts: 61588 - Karma: 122,917
smuggsjeremy jones can ride alta, but the average snowboarder no way.

average snowboarders will clog up, catch edges, cause accidents and slow down the already slow traverses and really turn the place into just traverses, then also boot pack up and break the side steps. you dont go to the top of alta, you go to the side of alta you have to traverse to everything except very few groomer runs.

snowboards are toys to go downhill and skis are tools to get around the mountain for 20 centuries. alta demands the right tool for the job.

if they can tell poor people they cant be there they have as much right to tell any other non protecteded class.


Yeah people seem to think it would just be "fine" but you traverse SO MUCH at alta, snowboarders would hate it.
Sep 2 2014 7:24PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
smuggsjeremy jones can ride alta, but the average snowboarder no way.

average snowboarders will clog up, catch edges, cause accidents and slow down the already slow traverses and really turn the place into just traverses, then also boot pack up and break the side steps. you dont go to the top of alta, you go to the side of alta you have to traverse to everything except very few groomer runs.

snowboards are toys to go downhill and skis are tools to get around the mountain for 20 centuries. alta demands the right tool for the job.

if they can tell poor people they cant be there they have as much right to tell any other non protecteded class.


hm. i mean, ive been in plenty of places where long traverses are necessary for the goods, and while yes, shitty snowboarders get in the way on traverses, so do MANY shitty skiers. and i think the other problems you mentioned can just as easily be generated by shitty skiers/traversers. maybe after skiing alta i'd agree with you on a personal level but they can't and won't disallow shitty skiers (or those who don't know the etiquette) from using the mountain...see what i'm getting at? it seems like a very difficult thing to defend in a courtroom
Sep 2 2014 7:26PM
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ski0
Posts: 2321 - Karma: 5,370
Is splitboarding aloud at Alta?
Sep 2 2014 7:42PM
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Al.Capone
Posts: 661 - Karma: 2,779
ski0Is splitboarding aloud at Alta?


Depending on the lift dood. No they are not.
Sep 2 2014 7:45PM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
RubberSoulhm. i mean, ive been in plenty of places where long traverses are necessary for the goods, and while yes, shitty snowboarders get in the way on traverses, so do MANY shitty skiers. and i think the other problems you mentioned can just as easily be generated by shitty skiers/traversers. maybe after skiing alta i'd agree with you on a personal level but they can't and won't disallow shitty skiers (or those who don't know the etiquette) from using the mountain...see what i'm getting at? it seems like a very difficult thing to defend in a courtroom


yea i get it but shitty skiers have fat skis these days that basically ski them down the mountain.

a few years ago beaters were on some bs east coast gear and couldnt get many places in alta. now its almost like the place is open range because of fat skis, there arent magic snowboards that carry your beginner ass down the mountain yet like skis do these days.
Sep 2 2014 7:51PM
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-wakes-
Posts: 358 - Karma: 201
pussyfooterYeah people seem to think it would just be "fine" but you traverse SO MUCH at alta, snowboarders would hate it.


ya that shits not easy. Alta is for skiers.
Sep 2 2014 8:42PM
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mafoost
Posts: 21 - Karma: 61
smuggsjeremy jones can ride alta, but the average snowboarder no way.

average snowboarders will clog up, catch edges, cause accidents and slow down the already slow traverses and really turn the place into just traverses, then also boot pack up and break the side steps. you dont go to the top of alta, you go to the side of alta you have to traverse to everything except very few groomer runs.

snowboards are toys to go downhill and skis are tools to get around the mountain for 20 centuries. alta demands the right tool for the job.

if they can tell poor people they cant be there they have as much right to tell any other non protecteded class.



This is where I stand on the issue. And I'm a snowboarder. Good snowboarders can definitely handle traverses and not fuck up the track, but I've seen way too many terrible snowboarders not be able to skate, get frustrated, and take off their board and start bootpacking the trail. That ruins it for everybody.
Sep 2 2014 9:19PM
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wasatch_rat
Posts: 1772 - Karma: 2,951
mafoostThis is where I stand on the issue. And I'm a snowboarder. Good snowboarders can definitely handle traverses and not fuck up the track, but I've seen way too many terrible snowboarders not be able to skate, get frustrated, and take off their board and start bootpacking the trail. That ruins it for everybody.


the exact same thing can be said of bad skiers. snowboarding has been incorporated with no problems literally everywhere else in the country, alta is not exceptional in its terrain and traverse requirements.
Sep 2 2014 10:24PM
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Wow.
Posts: 23 - Karma: 33
So I have ridden a snowboard for the last ten years, (Getting back on the skis this season.) but its like who cares? let them have it. Sounds like a bad time. Nobody likes snobby elitist, just come over to colorado and we can all smoke a J together.
Sep 2 2014 10:42PM
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.[sanhedrin].
Posts: 1652 - Karma: 932
I agree with most of the remarks in this thread, particularly the one about traversing a lot at Alta. Nevertheless, everyone is forgetting how the argument came about. Alta is a private company - yes. But they operate on public land. Any snowboarder can hike up and shred down any day of the week up at Alta. But they cannot get on a lift. The hill is public property. The lifts are private property.
Sep 2 2014 11:26PM
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hi_vis360
Posts: 5000 - Karma: 50,541
everyone is allowed to ride the lift at alta, because everyone is allowed to go skiing. Alta is a skiing specific facility, just like how pretty much any other sports facility is specific to one sport. There are definitely assholes at alta but the whole "discrimination" thing doesn't really make sense to me because everyone has the choice to ski or snowboard
Sep 3 2014 8:17AM
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TurquoiseGrizzly
Posts: 1819 - Karma: 13,149
smuggsjeremy jones can ride alta, but the average snowboarder no way.

average snowboarders will clog up, catch edges, cause accidents and slow down the already slow traverses and really turn the place into just traverses, then also boot pack up and break the side steps. you dont go to the top of alta, you go to the side of alta you have to traverse to everything except very few groomer runs.

snowboards are toys to go downhill and skis are tools to get around the mountain for 20 centuries. alta demands the right tool for the job.

if they can tell poor people they cant be there they have as much right to tell any other non protecteded class.


This is a very good point. When I went cat skiing last season it was Snowbirds first season allowing snowboarders. They held up most of the group because of all the traverses that we had to take and I actually gave one of my poles to one of them so he could possibly move a little quicker.

Eventually they would get sick of having to either hop, or unstrap just to get where they want.
Sep 3 2014 8:49AM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
Do I have the right to sue burton because they dont manufacture skis ?
Sep 3 2014 11:13AM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
Sorry Bjorn the "fact of the matter is their business is declining" is false. Alta is booming, skiing is booming it sucks for the people who have been there a while to see all the powder skied up but there is no way you can prove "their business is declining"

Snowboarders are desperate for someone to save their sport
Sep 3 2014 11:17AM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
smuggsDo I have the right to sue burton because they dont manufacture skis ?


you've made some good points, don't muddy them with more bad analogies like this

smuggsSorry Bjorn the "fact of the matter is their business is declining" is false. Alta is booming, skiing is booming it sucks for the people who have been there a while to see all the powder skied up but there is no way you can prove "their business is declining"

Snowboarders are desperate for someone to save their sport


yeah i gotta say i really don't see why he'd use that approach. i would imagine it is demonstrably false, and even if it isn't, i don't really see what that would do for him in the argument
Sep 3 2014 11:27AM
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mikem
Posts: 896 - Karma: 8,287
When a snowboarding can traverse the High T without putting holes in it, Alta will allow snowboarders...
Sep 3 2014 12:14PM
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