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Why are bindings so expensive

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PattyAlpaugh
Posts: 213 - Karma: 1,369
What makes a $350 pair of bindings so much better than a $150 pair of bindings? For example Rossignol axial 2 120s Vs Fks 140s. Or Marker free tens Vs griffons
Aug 26 2014 6:50PM
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.FRY.
Posts: 5620 - Karma: 22,863
saftey
Aug 26 2014 6:58PM
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McFellon
Posts: 1841 - Karma: 2,005
Better materials & increased durability
Aug 26 2014 8:10PM
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Ghost_BLandzV2
Posts: 1037 - Karma: 8,431
To make sure you dont eat shit and break your neck because you decided to buy shitty bindings.
Aug 26 2014 8:41PM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
Rossignol Axial2's aren't bad bindings by the way. They're good durability and safe provided they're the right binding for you.

With FKS you pay extra for two reasons one being that they have a metal heel (and toe on the 180's) and also they come with the pivoting heel technology which is supposedly safer.
Aug 26 2014 8:55PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7220 - Karma: 18,098
NegromancerRossignol Axial2's aren't bad bindings by the way. They're good durability and safe provided they're the right binding for you.

With FKS you pay extra for two reasons one being that they have a metal heel (and toe on the 180's) and also they come with the pivoting heel technology which is supposedly safer.


pretty much this but remember too that raising the price on somthing makes you think it's a better product. The axial and fks is a perfect example. Th axial really isn't muc worse but because the fks cost more people presume they are better so justify spending More money.
Aug 26 2014 9:14PM
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CharlieTurchetta
Posts: 316 - Karma: 839
Its better to spend 350 on bindings than thousands in the hospital.
Aug 26 2014 9:36PM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
CharlieTurchettaIts better to spend 350 on bindings than thousands in the hospital.


This is the wrong attitude.

It's better to do some research and buy the binding that suits you best not the most expensive highest DIN binding you can find.

Most people don't need a $350 binding. The safest binding is not the most expensive, highest DIN and full metal binding for a majority of skiers, the safest binding is the binding is one that suits the size and ability of the skier.
Aug 27 2014 1:57AM
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anti_bunk
Posts: 2629 - Karma: 329
^ exactly my buddy took his gf out on an old pair of his park skis with bindings set up way too advanced for her and she fell, ski didn't release and broke her leg. Obviously the din is a huge factor but u really need to research your setup no matter what.
Aug 27 2014 3:29AM
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.Witta
Posts: 114 - Karma: 262
CharlieTurchettaIts better to spend 350 on bindings than thousands in the hospital.


NegromancerThis is the wrong attitude.


No, that guy can't be more correct
Aug 27 2014 3:33AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6713 - Karma: 11,461
.FRY.saftey


That's not accurate at all unfortunately. Safety is the one thing that is normed across the alpine binding world, provided you are comparing like DIN to like DIN. The arguably only safer binding is Knee Binding, but that binding will have other short-comings associated with it.

What you get (generally speaking) when you pay more for a binding: a higher DIN range, more durable construction, features that are geared for retention vs release, and increased weight. Whether or not those things are appropriate for you is another discussion.
Aug 27 2014 4:14AM
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LastChairMedia
Posts: 860 - Karma: 1,855
Safety and quality. The new dukes I just bought were $460 so I feel pretty fuckin' safe.
Aug 27 2014 8:08AM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
High end bindings are made and sold in smaller quantities compared to low-end bindings, so the unit cost goes up. If Rossignol sold as many Axial 120s as FKS 18s they would cost pretty much the same to make and their retail prices would be close.
Aug 27 2014 8:11AM
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s-hand
Posts: 1334 - Karma: 1,800
NegromancerRossignol Axial2's aren't bad bindings by the way. They're good durability and safe provided they're the right binding for you.

With FKS you pay extra for two reasons one being that they have a metal heel (and toe on the 180's) and also they come with the pivoting heel technology which is supposedly safer.


The pivoting heel on the FKS does NOT make it safer. There is not an additional degree of release freedom in the heel of the FKS as there is with a binding like the knee binding. The pivoting heel in the case of the FKS only increases durability of the binding.
Aug 27 2014 8:38AM
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spintowinG
Posts: 13 - Karma: 39
semi related random question but i snapped my salomon z12s (i think thats what they're called) trying a frontflip, only 2months after buying them. Any chance this is covered by warranty?
Aug 27 2014 8:40AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
tomPietrowskipretty much this but remember too that raising the price on somthing makes you think it's a better product. The axial and fks is a perfect example. Th axial really isn't muc worse but because the fks cost more people presume they are better so justify spending More money.




lol. I bet you think the STH is "much better" than the Axial though, don't you ;)
Aug 27 2014 8:48AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6713 - Karma: 11,461
spintowinGsemi related random question but i snapped my salomon z12s (i think thats what they're called) trying a frontflip, only 2months after buying them. Any chance this is covered by warranty?


no one here can help you unfortunately. Your binding needs to be taken into any authorized Salomon dealer with proof of purchase (if you can bring it back to the shop you bought it from, it will be much easier), they will assess the breakage, and they will contact Salomon.
Aug 27 2014 9:11AM
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steezysteeze
Posts: 1739 - Karma: 1,012
I bought FKS because they're gonna last me quite a few years.
Aug 27 2014 9:13AM
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notorious_candy
Posts: 157 - Karma: 64
I wouldn't say that you have to get the most expensive ones out there. I think that it depends on your skiing level. Just like with computers for example. If you just browse the web an watching some vids on youtube and stuff you won't need a macbook pro. But everybody wants one just they can say to their friends and show the people that they have the best hardware even if they just watch kitty-pics or so!
Aug 27 2014 9:45AM
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pattyWhack
Posts: 691 - Karma: 1,646
spintowinGsemi related random question but i snapped my salomon z12s (i think thats what they're called) trying a frontflip, only 2months after buying them. Any chance this is covered by warranty?


bring em to the shop you got em from. depending on the way it broke, it could be replaced. i overshot a front flip once and busted a binding in the exact same way. usually there is a factory warranty, and that's honoured when it breaks in an unusual way...
Aug 27 2014 10:52AM
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Ali_Dibden
Posts: 1966 - Karma: 1,688
spintowinGsemi related random question but i snapped my salomon z12s (i think thats what they're called) trying a frontflip, only 2months after buying them. Any chance this is covered by warranty?


If you are trying flips and such you may prefer a more burly binding, the z12s are often used on rentals. I had them on a set once and despised them.
Aug 27 2014 11:18AM
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Mrworm10
Posts: 2707 - Karma: 4,229
FirmWormOr Marker free tens Vs griffons


Also, aren't Free tens kid's bindings?
Aug 27 2014 11:34AM
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Noddard
Posts: 2656 - Karma: 3,868
Fks in my opinion are more durable. Din is the main factor, though you should not have something too strong or weak.
Aug 27 2014 1:10PM
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EastShoreDrive
Posts: 188 - Karma: 862
I really hope Rick Howell makes it out on the right side of the litigation currently take place. If he does, he has some great data to share that will shed some light on all of this.
Aug 27 2014 2:54PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
EastShoreDriveI really hope Rick Howell makes it out on the right side of the litigation currently take place. If he does, he has some great data to share that will shed some light on all of this.


What are you talking about?
Aug 27 2014 4:57PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
Huck_NorrisWhat are you talking about?


I mean, I'm aware of Howell's involvement w knee binding, but who gives a shit? It's just marketing and there's no single way to eliminate the potential for injury except for staying home. Howell can't even comment anyways, the courts told him he can't talk any more shit haha

So yeah... Whatever he has to say, it's just another guy's opinion and that doesn't really mean shit.

Buy bindings that will last, and make sure they're set properly. It's the only way.
Aug 27 2014 5:05PM
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EastShoreDrive
Posts: 188 - Karma: 862
Huck_NorrisI mean, I'm aware of Howell's involvement w knee binding, but who gives a shit? It's just marketing and there's no single way to eliminate the potential for injury except for staying home. Howell can't even comment anyways, the courts told him he can't talk any more shit haha

So yeah... Whatever he has to say, it's just another guy's opinion and that doesn't really mean shit.

Buy bindings that will last, and make sure they're set properly. It's the only way.


Rick wasn't just involved with Knee Binding, it was all his research, engineering, and design. I've seen the new independent research he had done regarding valgus torque, it is not just opinion. There isn't a way to eliminate knee injuries but according to the data there is a better way to mitigate them. But what the fuck do I know, I'm just responding to another guy's opinion that doesn't really mean shit.
Aug 27 2014 5:33PM
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seward
Posts: 5233 - Karma: 2,174
so much dumb.

its quite simple. quality, consistency, durability.

consider axial 120s like a ford mustang.
and fks 140s like a ferrari 458.

theyre both sports cars.
theyre both good.
but one is much much much better.
Aug 27 2014 5:36PM
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Muggydude
Posts: 701 - Karma: 383
The obvious answer is buy the $350 binding for $150.

Seriously. Buy your gear in the off season.
Aug 27 2014 5:48PM
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BlueVillain
Posts: 408 - Karma: 2,438
I bought some bindings for 80$ (coreupt) and they lasted 2 days
I understood why they were so cheap
Aug 27 2014 6:27PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
EastShoreDriveRick wasn't just involved with Knee Binding, it was all his research, engineering, and design. I've seen the new independent research he had done regarding valgus torque, it is not just opinion. There isn't a way to eliminate knee injuries but according to the data there is a better way to mitigate them. But what the fuck do I know, I'm just responding to another guy's opinion that doesn't really mean shit.


I, like all skiers, hope that improvements can be made to bindings to make them safer and reduce injury. However, whatever the research behind it and the genuine good intentions, I think Knee Bindings put themselves in the situation that they are now in. Just like supplements and pharma products, you have to be extremely careful how a device is marketed in regards to its injury prevention and reduction. Coupled with the way the inventor handled it, by blasting the company and the investors... I have little confidence in the supposed research, or the company. Firsthand reviews of the binding also don't lend much confidence. It's a case of high hopes and dreams, and though we all want a better binding, this probably isn't it. Yet.
Aug 27 2014 6:48PM
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EastShoreDrive
Posts: 188 - Karma: 862
DarthVaderI, like all skiers, hope that improvements can be made to bindings to make them safer and reduce injury. However, whatever the research behind it and the genuine good intentions, I think Knee Bindings put themselves in the situation that they are now in. Just like supplements and pharma products, you have to be extremely careful how a device is marketed in regards to its injury prevention and reduction. Coupled with the way the inventor handled it, by blasting the company and the investors... I have little confidence in the supposed research, or the company. Firsthand reviews of the binding also don't lend much confidence. It's a case of high hopes and dreams, and though we all want a better binding, this probably isn't it. Yet.


For this conversation Rick, the new research, and the subsequent data needs to be completely separated from Knee Binding. Each doesn't have anything to do with Knee Binding and shouldn't be used as an endorsement for it. The entanglement comes from Rick currently trying to get what he feels is his IP back.

What I'm really trying to say is based on the new independently carried out research I was privy to as part of working for a regional VC, there is room for vast improvement with ski bindings. Specifically in the area of valgus torque. Can Rick or someone else build it? Who knows. I just hope that someone can.

My words may not mean shit here but my analysis and opinion affect the flow of capital investment throughout the northeast region. Trust me when I say this, huge safety improvements can be made to bindings. The data has been compiled, someone just needs to get to building it. I don't care who it is as long as someone does it.
Aug 27 2014 7:40PM
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LamieJ
Posts: 1008 - Karma: 2,588
MuggydudeThe obvious answer is buy the $350 binding for $150.

Seriously. Buy your gear in the off season.


Could not agree any more, you sir are a genius
Aug 28 2014 12:09AM
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.Witta
Posts: 114 - Karma: 262
sewardso much dumb.

its quite simple. quality, consistency, durability.

consider axial 120s like a ford mustang.
and fks 140s like a ferrari 458.

theyre both sports cars.
theyre both good.
but one is much much much better.


mustang is a muscle car

and the 458 has 570 hp

mustangs have anywhere between 101 hp - 1200 hp
Aug 28 2014 12:15AM
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PhotoGraphic
Posts: 241 - Karma: 477
The axials do seem to go slack over time, but they are also good if you swicth boots up, not having to remount because your bsl have changed 4mm. The fks is the one shot one kill, you don't like that boot well neither does the fks like the new boots you just tried to put on re-drill or helicoils
Aug 28 2014 4:54AM
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seward
Posts: 5233 - Karma: 2,174
.Wittamustang is a muscle car

and the 458 has 570 hp

mustangs have anywhere between 101 hp - 1200 hp


are you serious??
way to completely miss the point.
Aug 28 2014 8:40AM
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notorious_candy
Posts: 157 - Karma: 64
.Wittamustang is a muscle car

and the 458 has 570 hp

mustangs have anywhere between 101 hp - 1200 hp


Mustan = ax
Ferrari = samurai sword
Aug 28 2014 8:42AM
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Caucasian_Asian
Posts: 2447 - Karma: 1,665
sewardconsider axial 120s like a ford mustang.
and fks 140s like a ferrari 458.


That's not quite right.

If the Axial 120 is like a Ford Mustang,
the FKS140 is like a Ford Mustang GT.

The toes are the same, but the heel is different(better?); just like the GT has a V8 instead of a V6.


If you really wanted to make the comparison between a Mustang and a Ferrari 458, you should look at the Axial 120 and a Dynafit Beast. They're both bindings, but they're completely different and at both ends of the price spectrum.
Aug 28 2014 9:14AM
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seward
Posts: 5233 - Karma: 2,174
Caucasian_AsianThat's not quite right.

If the Axial 120 is like a Ford Mustang,
the FKS140 is like a Ford Mustang GT.

The toes are the same, but the heel is different(better?); just like the GT has a V8 instead of a V6.


If you really wanted to make the comparison between a Mustang and a Ferrari 458, you should look at the Axial 120 and a Dynafit Beast. They're both bindings, but they're completely different and at both ends of the price spectrum.




sure man, lets do that.

my point was that they are both fuckin cars!
fuck me
Aug 28 2014 9:59AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
EastShoreDriveRick wasn't just involved with Knee Binding, it was all his research, engineering, and design. I've seen the new independent research he had done regarding valgus torque, it is not just opinion. There isn't a way to eliminate knee injuries but according to the data there is a better way to mitigate them. But what the fuck do I know, I'm just responding to another guy's opinion that doesn't really mean shit.




Oh, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that he may have some really interesting concepts, insight and opinions, but if the knee binding really was safer and didn't have a performance trade off it would be the industry standard and world class athletes would be clamoring for that technology. It's the basic premise that there's a way to eliminate all the risk without a tradeoff that I find disingenuous... And he really couldn't add anything since he has been put under gag order by the courts anyways.


There is no perfect binding, and the knee bindings are a gimmick. That's what I was getting at. If you're pushing the envelope, there's increased likelihood of injury because you have to increase your retention by default. There is no way around that.
Aug 28 2014 10:03AM
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