Can you read the snowpack?

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This is why the marketing of backcountry gear to the layman is morally irresponsible.

For real man? You're asking if people just wing it when it comes to their lives....presumably so you can feel better about doing the same thing?

I guarantee you that anyone on this site with the inclination and access to ski big terrain outside resort boundaries has a minimum of an Avy 1, a beacon, probe and shovel. At the very least. Or, the deep pockets to go on guided tours/helitrips/catskiing. Certain parts of the country....ahem Loveland Pass....have a reputation for attracting people with no training or equipment, but most people I come across who skin, tour,sled, etc. are very skilled and equipped.

If you are going to do it anyway, check the avy forecast for whatever zone/aspect/elevation you're skiing, pay attention to the weather forecast, avoid days with big temp changes, watch out for windy days or the day after a windy day/night, stick to shit < than 30, pick stuff with a lot of anchors (dense trees for example), bring a friend who knows their shit and is physically capable of saving your life (of course, most experienced people won't agree to go with a novice with no skills because they're likewise relying on the other person to potentially save their life), don't go with more than maybe 3-4 other people, look for recent avalanche activity on similar slopes, aspects, elevations in the area you want to ski. If you see any, or any other bad signs, get the fuck out and go home whether you skinned for 3 hours or not.

No paragraph or 5 is going to prepare you to step into that world. All I can really say is that it would be a huge mistake to think that because you're a killer, gifted, resort powder skier that you'll be all set to head outside the boundary. Two different skill sets between navigating untamed mountains and skiing. Most people don't realize just how controlled an environment ski areas actually are (especially in N. America), even the western mega and gnarly resorts.

11 years ago

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METH-CANCERIt should be mentioned that digging a pit and testing the snow pack is far from an accurate method of determining if a slope is safe to ski.

Some even make the argument that digging a pit is more likely to give a false sense of confidence and you shouldn't bother unless you're a researcher digging dozens of sample pits in the same area over a season.

Real shit. Lots of fatal accidents occur to groups who dig one or more pit. Hell, people fucking trigger slides WHILE digging pits. One of the problem with a pit is that if you dig one in a relatively safe, flat area....well, how reliable are your test results? Do those results guarantee that the line you actually want to ski is safe? On the flip side, a lot of people will tell you that to dig a pit and conduct tests with any sort of validity you basically need to expose yourself to the dangerous slope to dig it which obviously defeats the purpose.

People seem to cling to the pit and the tests because it is so "scientific" and they have little numbers and it feels so tangible. Everyone that I know with extensive experience seem to be pretty down on the worth of pits in general. People still dig them, and I think they're good in a macro sense of keeping tabs on what the snowpack is doing over the course of a year, but as for making a decision on a particular slope at a particular time? I don't know. I do know that I would let a pit talk me out of a slope if the results were terrible (maybe a scary shear and a block that jumps out of the column, or maybe a big ugly problem layer in the first I don't know....90cm's depending on what's above it etc.) but I wouldn't ever let a pit talk me into a slope if I had other concerns about it.

11 years ago

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miroz

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casualReal shit. Lots of fatal accidents occur to groups who dig one or more pit. Hell, people fucking trigger slides WHILE digging pits. One of the problem with a pit is that if you dig one in a relatively safe, flat area....well, how reliable are your test results? Do those results guarantee that the line you actually want to ski is safe? On the flip side, a lot of people will tell you that to dig a pit and conduct tests with any sort of validity you basically need to expose yourself to the dangerous slope to dig it which obviously defeats the purpose.

People seem to cling to the pit and the tests because it is so "scientific" and they have little numbers and it feels so tangible. Everyone that I know with extensive experience seem to be pretty down on the worth of pits in general. People still dig them, and I think they're good in a macro sense of keeping tabs on what the snowpack is doing over the course of a year, but as for making a decision on a particular slope at a particular time? I don't know. I do know that I would let a pit talk me out of a slope if the results were terrible (maybe a scary shear and a block that jumps out of the column, or maybe a big ugly problem layer in the first I don't know....90cm's depending on what's above it etc.) but I wouldn't ever let a pit talk me into a slope if I had other concerns about it.

On what percentage of outings are you (or your friends) digging pits?

11 years ago

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perryhunter

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Hamlethey ns,

so last year i harldy skied any pow because the avalanche conditions were gnarly and I know nothing about reading the snowpack and so on. I was wondering: Do NS members actually know how to read the snowpack and own the proper gear? Or do you just hope for the best when skiing pow?

I want to get more into pow next year but I am quite scared of avalaches.
The only thing I know about them is the 30degree rule.
How about you guys?

It would take to be a professional before knowing these thing. Those gears that you're also referring too are for Professionals only. Maybe a ski patrol has it too. I think you can inquire it on their page.

11 years ago

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Peter.

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i can read the east coast snowpack

there are two options

1. icy
2. super icy

11 years ago

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LC.

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METH-CANCERIt should be mentioned that digging a pit and testing the snow pack is far from an accurate method of determining if a slope is safe to ski.

Some even make the argument that digging a pit is more likely to give a false sense of confidence and you shouldn't bother unless you're a researcher digging dozens of sample pits in the same area over a season.

This. Pits give you a very general picture of a certain aspect and not much more. I'll dig one once a year just out of curiosity. Avalanche forecasts in Europe are pretty detailed, and while still always generalisations and not an exact science, you'll get some idea of the snowpack before you even leave your house every morning.

If you want to be safe (safer, safe-ish), don't ski steep slopes in fresh snow, simple as that. Otherwise get some professional knowledge then ski with experienced skiers and communicate well.

11 years ago

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blondie.On what percentage of outings are you (or your friends) digging pits?

I'm usually exposed to slide paths in the context of work as opposed to crossing them on skins in a remote area. We are required to keep fairly thorough data of all kinds so we dig quite a few pits. I have to participate in ongoing training and exercises and help with avy 1 classes, so I tend to dig them then too.

I dig a lot of quick hand pits as I move around and I feel like doing that along a skin track off to the side as I ascend and get closer to where I want to ski tells me a lot about the snowpack. I also read all the detailed forecasts and talk to other people, which is a big piece. I've never dug more than 2 full pits in a day, that I can tell you. Honestly, I feel like profiles of crowns of previous slides are a lot more useful. The more pits I dig, the less certain I feel about the results.

I spend a lot more time looking for deep pockets and convexities and terrain traps and escape routes and scary corninces than I do pouring over pit data ot whether there's a 2 step change in hardness between layers or whatever.

11 years ago

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^^^^ i don't think you can produce any quantitative data to support your "lots" of avvy deaths occurring to people who dug pits on the slope that incidents occurred on or that day claim, i'd put that # pretty low myself but that's just based on local incident reports.
No one i know who is experienced will down play the ability to take instability clues from the snowpack, one can argue the importance of full pit profiles and recording them, but the ability to interperate others is enhanced by that skill
Almost all the experienced bc peeps i know spend the majority of their tours assessing or reading the snowpack digging hasties, pole probes, testing small test slopes, making cuts above others skinners or testing windslab/lip cohesion/energy being way more effective use of time than full pit profiles. I don't cornice cut or whomp much anymore as the wasatch is way to crowded and the results tend to fuck slopes, but it has it's place
The more pits you dig the more you realize spatial variability skew the importance of any one result and the ability of small changes in wind,
aspect, elevation, temperature or other subtle terrain changes effect bonding.
i tend to dig a lot of pits early season and on vacation or in new terrain where i don't know the snowpacks seasonal history as well.
As to the where you dig someone gave a discussion of their thesis paper at our local ssw
and surpringly their data showed not much difference in pwl tween lower safer pits and upper starting zones. I bout got my ass kicked early in my touring experiences digging a pit in a exposed place . Tend to think more of consequences these days or rope up
And the whole bc game being based on consequence risk.
the one dude nailed it though terrain is the constant that doesn't change.
as is humans nature to push boundaries

11 years ago

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SFBv420.0^^^^ i don't think you can produce any quantitative data to support your "lots" of avvy deaths occurring to people who dug pits on the slope that incidents occurred on or that day claim, i'd put that # pretty low myself but that's just based on local incident reports.
No one i know who is experienced will down play the ability to take instability clues from the snowpack, one can argue the importance of full pit profiles and recording them, but the ability to interperate others is enhanced by that skill
Almost all the experienced bc peeps i know spend the majority of their tours assessing or reading the snowpack digging hasties, pole probes, testing small test slopes, making cuts above others skinners or testing windslab/lip cohesion/energy being way more effective use of time than full pit profiles. I don't cornice cut or whomp much anymore as the wasatch is way to crowded and the results tend to fuck slopes, but it has it's place
The more pits you dig the more you realize spatial variability skew the importance of any one result and the ability of small changes in wind,
aspect, elevation, temperature or other subtle terrain changes effect bonding.
i tend to dig a lot of pits early season and on vacation or in new terrain where i don't know the snowpacks seasonal history as well.
As to the where you dig someone gave a discussion of their thesis paper at our local ssw
and surpringly their data showed not much difference in pwl tween lower safer pits and upper starting zones. I bout got my ass kicked early in my touring experiences digging a pit in a exposed place . Tend to think more of consequences these days or rope up
And the whole bc game being based on consequence risk.
the one dude nailed it though terrain is the constant that doesn't change.
as is humans nature to push boundaries

Yeah, pretty much all of that, good post and that sort of affirms what I'm learning as for what kind of value people tend to place on full snowpit profiles. You don't need to do a full pit to spot a problem or bad layer.

I spend almost all of my time in terrain that I know, or am starting to know, pretty well. I have had the benefit of having people with 30 some odd years experience in controlling that very terrain hold my hand through it, so I'm lucky and haven't had to take as much risk as the next guy just striking out solo.

As for "lots", definite exaggeration, but I've read of more than one, and last season personally took photos of a slide on Trelise's western flank that runs out into the area boundary that was triggered by two guys who left through a bc access gate and did so while in a pit. It broke at their backs as they were in it.

11 years ago

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iLLbiLLy

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casualI guarantee you that anyone on this site with the inclination and access to ski big terrain outside resort boundaries has a minimum of an Avy 1, a beacon, probe and shovel. At the very least. Or, the deep pockets to go on guided tours/helitrips/catskiing. Certain parts of the country....ahem Loveland Pass....have a reputation for attracting people with no training or equipment, but most people I come across who skin, tour,sled, etc. are very skilled and equipped.

You pretty much nailed it... however I never took AVI 1.

I probably logged 40+ days in the backcountry last season and just as many out the resort gates (I will distinguish these, because while, apparently the word "Sidecountry" is dead, there is most certainly a difference). Many of these days were in remote terrain (sled or long skin access) that hadn't see another track all season.

Instead, I spent countless hours studying avalanches online, watching actual videos, reading books, talking with people more experienced than myself. By the time I stepped foot in the backcountry, I could practically recite the entirety of Bruce Tremper's "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain" and was far more knowledgeable than most AVI 1 participants.

Still, in the past 3 years, I've made more bad decisions than I could count. Most of the time, there was no consequence... A few times I got very lucky. Other's I know, far more experienced than I, didn't get so lucky. The more you learn and gain experience, the more you start to realize how little you really understand and control you have.

My point being, that just taking an Avalanche 1 course is just the bare minimum. Being able to safely navigate the backcountry is a skill you can never master. Even the best (often the best) lose their lives.

All of that being said, here are my personal suggestions from someone who has survived a mer 3 seasons in the backcountry:

1: Learn everything you can about the basics of avalanches (take AVI 1 or do a shit ton of studying)
2: Get really good with your beacon (as well as digging and probing technique)
3: Find a partner who better than you at the above. Listen to them. Question their decisions.
4: Read the local AVI report every morning. Pay attentions to event depth, elevation, and aspect
5: Accept that every time you go in the backcountry your putting you live at risk.
6: Everytime you ski attempt to calculate the chance that you will die. Decide if said "chance of death" is worth skiing

A few of the infinite factors that go into "chance of death":
* slope angle (obvious)
* snow pack (read reports, look for red flags)
* slope runout (if it does go... will you get spit out clean? into a terrain trap? into trees? off a cliff?)
* has there been recent activity? at a similar elevation? on the same aspect?
* has there been recent loading?
* which type of avalanche is most likely (soft, hard, wet)
* what layer is most likely to fail (how deep, how hard)
* how large potentially fail? (open face vs narrow shoot)
* how well do you REALLY know the snow pack (are you on vacation? are you skiing the same line you skied 10 days in a row?)
* tree density (high density can = stability. Anything less and you'll become a pinball even if it goes small)
* tree age (can give you insight into how often the slope slides big)
* will my partner be able to keep eyes on me?

Take time to consider each of these factors. If you still want to ski the line, then:

(A: You've picked a relativity good line
(B: Your crazy
(C: Your dumb
(D: Both (B and (C

11 years ago

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Great thread (rough start but it's coming around). Lots of good info here to get your brain wrapped around how to think out there and you can take that to your entry level avie course and learn as much as you can. Then, be afraid. Don't feel like you are safe and educated. You have now stepped into one of the most dangerous levels of training out there. Entry level avie training often sets one up for over confidence. Be aware of that. I did my AST1 7 years ago and we studied snow science. Now, they have changed the entire program to focus on terrain and almost only terrain. It is the only thing you can control. I ski out of Golden, BC. Most of our terrain is exposed hanging or chutes from 40-60 degrees. It's steep and gnar and one of the most dangerous snowpacks in the world due to the cold temps and relatively shallow snowpack. I ski most of every run like it will slide because when it does, I want to be prepared. I ski the high sides, I reduce exposure, i keep flow, i know exits and traps and at every moment down a slope I know what my plan will be. This is even on low/moderate days. Never go out there feeling like a hero or thinking you are safe because something is stable. 2 days before a LOW/LOW/LOW month started (the first time I had seen that rating in years) there was the first size 5 avie in North America. Shit is always lurking and I've seen a million slides when it wasn't 'supposed to' slide.

I don't dig a ton of pits. I do a few at the beginning of the year to wrap my head around those basal layers that will be buried and probably relevant all year. I dig a pig or two in new zones. I dig a pit when I haven't skied in a while or haven't been somewhere in a while. More importantly I constantly assess the snow with hasty pits, probes and a variety of tests. I took my Professional avalanche 1 course a few years ago and I wish I had waited a while longer before taking it. It's a great course regardless but the more you know going in, the more you come out with.

Have fun out there and NEVER be afraid to ask questions or turn back.

11 years ago

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malonius_funk

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play the field conservatively. at the end of the day, it's always better to ski blower hippie pow on a 25 degree slope than to kill yourself on a steep ass line you think would look totally radical on your gopro.

11 years ago

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omIV

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iLLbiLLy(C: Your dumb

Ehh...

11 years ago

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Hamlet

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just to make things clear: I am aware that taking a course and buying gear is the only proper way to approach getting into powder skiing.

But since this gear and the course are quite expensive and yet all of ns talks about pow skiing, i was wondering if most people actually know their enviroment and so on.

I wasn't asking about how to read the snowpack or if it is ok to just wing it.

There seems to be some confusion in this thread.

Cheers

11 years ago

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skier58284

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Take a class. Get an ABS pack, shovel, probe, and transponder. Only ski backcountry with other people who have done all of the aforementioned.

11 years ago

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Pow skiing does not mean backcountry skiing or touring. You can get faceshots and blower pow all day long on plenty of ski hills.

11 years ago

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zahava

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Sh4dowGet an ABS pack

I feel like that is horrible advice, such a false sense of security for newbies.

A word of advice; don't wait to take Avi 1, if you have the opportunity, just fucking do it. I waited because we were trying to organize it as a crew, by the time it was clear no one else was going to take it, there was hardly any point being so close to the end of the season.

Still, I don't remember ever feeling 'unsafe'; I read a lot, took general precautions, and always skied with people who knew the area well. I still own a beacon/shovel/probe and was shown how to use them. I think what it really came down too was making a choice to stick to low incline and usually gladed terrain, closer to the resort boundaries. IDK, it was a relatively normal year, lots of wet snow that bonds well, 'low risk' a few days after the storm when things sebtle out.

11 years ago

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hemlockjibber8Pow skiing does not mean backcountry skiing or touring. You can get faceshots and blower pow all day long on plenty of ski hills.

conversely anyone who thinks you cant perish in a slide or narsid in resort patrolled and avvy controled terrain is fooling themselves.
Only real diff tween side and back country is the amount of time sar or als can be on scene should your skills in those requards be lacking.

11 years ago

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I can think of 3-4 slides in bounds in CO in the last few years. At least one fatal at Vail, and then there was that directed skiing by A-Basin patrol that resulted in 15 people getting caught on Montezuma.

Spot on about the rest too up there^

11 years ago

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Drail

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casualI can think of 3-4 slides in bounds in CO in the last few years. At least one fatal at Vail, and then there was that directed skiing by A-Basin patrol that resulted in 15 people getting caught on Montezuma.

Spot on about the rest too up there^

Well yeah, but it's not really 'our' responsibility to know the snowpack when skiing inbounds on a pow day. On really deep in bounds days, or when there's been a lot of wind with the storm a lot of my extended group of ski friends have gotten in the habit of wearing our beacons while skiing within the boundary line. Hell, there's one incident where two of my good friends (who were on ski patrol) went and skied one of the steeper, lesser skied lines at the hill and got caught in a slide - after they bombed it earlier that morning.

Reading the snowpack is a life long journey if you choose it to be. The more you get into winter backcountry travel and snowpack analyses the higher the chance of getting caught in an avalanche. Yet, anyone with experience will 100% of the time tell beginners to get as much training as possible.

11 years ago

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DrailWell yeah, but it's not really 'our' responsibility to know the snowpack when skiing inbounds on a pow day. On really deep in bounds days, or when there's been a lot of wind with the storm a lot of my extended group of ski friends have gotten in the habit of wearing our beacons while skiing within the boundary line. Hell, there's one incident where two of my good friends (who were on ski patrol) went and skied one of the steeper, lesser skied lines at the hill and got caught in a slide - after they bombed it earlier that morning.

Reading the snowpack is a life long journey if you choose it to be. The more you get into winter backcountry travel and snowpack analyses the higher the chance of getting caught in an avalanche. Yet, anyone with experience will 100% of the time tell beginners to get as much training as possible.

In a perfect world, you're right. At the end of the day though, it's your life on the line. People are fallible, make mistakes, and I think it's a good idea for people skiing slide prone slopes to pay attention, calculate their own level of acceptable risk, and not just blindly rest assured that everything is good to go because a gate is open. Obviously a huge part of the risk is reduced in bounds, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be totally lulled into complacency because someone gets paid to maintain the terrain you're skiing on. People fuck up, and beyond that, it's a dynamic thing this snow stuff.

11 years ago

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skier58284

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zbphotoI feel like that is horrible advice, such a false sense of security for newbies.

They have a 96% survival rate and the 4% who die don't pull it in time. Hardly a "false" sense of security.

11 years ago

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Sh4dowThey have a 96% survival rate and the 4% who die don't pull it in time. Hardly a "false" sense of security.

Your sophomore season in the west
I have no bc experience
marketing gullibility
are showing

11 years ago

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LC.

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SFBv420.0Your sophomore season in the west
I have no bc experience
marketing gullibility
are showing

About a 50% realworld increase in survival probability over no airbag pack in a situation where an airbag would be effective. About a 20% overall increased chance of surviving any avalanche you get caught in. Good enough stats to spend money on one if you have the cash available.

Queue more preachy comments.

11 years ago

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iLLbiLLy

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Sh4dowThey have a 96% survival rate and the 4% who die don't pull it in time. Hardly a "false" sense of security.

You have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Yes, a float pack will increase your chances of staying on top of the snow in an event, but that doesn't mean you have a 0% chance of dying if you just "deploy your bag in time".

First off lets consider a high percentage of people who die in avalanched die due to trama from getting dragged across rocks, raked through trees and launched off cliffs. Its true that an air bag will offer SOME additional protection, but only to the back of your head.

I could spew all day about this, but Bruce Temper has already nailed down the facts in this blog: http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth

11 years ago

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SkiBum.

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I just kick cornice and keep my airbag deployed at all times. YOLO

11 years ago

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RubberSoul

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SkiBum.I just kick cornice and keep my airbag deployed at all times. YOLO

soon we'll just rope ourselves to our drones with next-gen rope synthesized from spider silk, and at the first sign of trouble the drone will whisk us away to safety

11 years ago

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Rachy

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Related, but not entirely.

As a novice, I hang with my friends who are guides.

One of the issues that seems to come up pretty often is how so many people who go into the side/back country have no emergency experience at all.

It's sooooo easy to go and get your CPR/First responder certs. You may think that sort of thing is straight forward, but you would be surprised at how many people don't actually know how to give CPR.

CPR is once a year, first aid is every 3 years. You can even go one up and get your CERT or OEC.

11 years ago

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brett_fisher

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hall ass an hope for the best

11 years ago

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Rachy

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And my friend just said that first aid/ cpr depends on the class you take, some are 2 years.

Do it.

http://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/program-highlights/cpr-first-aid

11 years ago

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Drail

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RachyOne of the issues that seems to come up pretty often is how so many people who go into the side/back country have no emergency experience at all.

True. Ask around and it's pretty surprising how many groups out there don't have at least one first aid kid between the group. let alone a spot or any kind of plan for contacting outside help if it's needed.

11 years ago

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zahava

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RachyRelated, but not entirely.

As a novice, I hang with my friends who are guides.

One of the issues that seems to come up pretty often is how so many people who go into the side/back country have no emergency experience at all.

It's sooooo easy to go and get your CPR/First responder certs. You may think that sort of thing is straight forward, but you would be surprised at how many people don't actually know how to give CPR.

CPR is once a year, first aid is every 3 years. You can even go one up and get your CERT or OEC.

I've really been meaning to re-cert my First Aid + CPR, I used to have my NLS as well but I don't really need the lifeguard aspect anymore.

11 years ago

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SFBv420.0conversely anyone who thinks you cant perish in a slide or narsid in resort patrolled and avvy controled terrain is fooling themselves.
Only real diff tween side and back country is the amount of time sar or als can be on scene should your skills in those requards be lacking.

I must call you out on the second sentence there. The biggest difference between resort access back country and true back country is skier compaction. Skiers hitting start zones early in the season to break up a potential basal weakness, people regularly cutting cornices, general traffic reducing slab size, more frequent avalanches from traffic clearing out weak layers. Not something to bank on for safety but it definitely makes a difference. That being said, skier traffic is also a safety concern for slides being started above you. If it is burial related, search and rescue isn't going to do shit. You will be dead before they get there, regardless of where you are. As for response time, they are probably taking a helicopter in anyways so the difference in time is not astronomical.

11 years ago

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RachyAnd my friend just said that first aid/ cpr depends on the class you take, some are 2 years.

Do it.

http://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/program-highlights/cpr-first-aid

OEC requires you refresh 1/3 of the course every year. Living in a mountain town like Golden, BC I find it hard to find people who don't have professional first aid training or avalanche training. I definitely take it for granted.

I never bank on reactionary measures to keep me safe but obviously you need to have the skills. I am often blown away at how many people would never be able to dig through avalanche debris. When my mom goes touring with her 70 year old lady friend I wonder who is better at digging a 5 foot hole in refrozen chunder.

11 years ago

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ThaLorax

Posts: 21102 - Karma: 8,579

Karma: 8,579

Posts: 21102

@th1337

Threads because I'm too tired to read all of this and form a response aside from, "Casual is dropping the knowledge train as usual".

11 years ago

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Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,125

Karma: 3,125

Posts: 2539

Addict

hemlockjibber8I must call you out on the second sentence there. The biggest difference between resort access back country and true back country is skier compaction. Skiers hitting start zones early in the season to break up a potential basal weakness, people regularly cutting cornices, general traffic reducing slab size, more frequent avalanches from traffic clearing out weak layers. Not something to bank on for safety but it definitely makes a difference. That being said, skier traffic is also a safety concern for slides being started above you. If it is burial related, search and rescue isn't going to do shit. You will be dead before they get there, regardless of where you are. As for response time, they are probably taking a helicopter in anyways so the difference in time is not astronomical.

I

11 years ago

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Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,125

Karma: 3,125

Posts: 2539

Addict

hemlockjibber8I must call you out on the second sentence there. The biggest difference between resort access back country and true back country is skier compaction. Skiers hitting start zones early in the season to break up a potential basal weakness, people regularly cutting cornices, general traffic reducing slab size, more frequent avalanches from traffic clearing out weak layers. Not something to bank on for safety but it definitely makes a difference. That being said, skier traffic is also a safety concern for slides being started above you. If it is burial related, search and rescue isn't going to do shit. You will be dead before they get there, regardless of where you are. As for response time, they are probably taking a helicopter in anyways so the difference in time is not astronomical.

I

11 years ago

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