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Israel begins ground invasion of Gaza

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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 305
IDF starts Gaza ground invasion By YAAKOV LAPPIN

IDF ground forces began to move into the Gaza Strip on Thursday evening, the prime minister's office confirmed.

The purpose of the operation was to destroy the Gazan terror tunnels leading to Israel, according to a statement released by the prime minister's office.

Prior to the commencement of the ground invasion, the IDF launched a massive wave of combined air and artillery strikes on Thursday night.

The IDF said that the operation will involve infantry, engineering corps, and tank units combined with air force and naval support and intelligence.

Palestinian sources said strikes occurred up and down the Strip, adding that one strike targeted a motorcycle apparently carrying members of a rocket launching cell on their way to an attack on Israel.

At around 10:00 p.m. rocket sirens sounded in the Tel Aviv area, and in the Shfela. Iron Dome made a number of interceptions in the Tel Aviv area.

Hamas bombarded Israel on Thursday with rockets after the end of the humanitarian truce, firing over 100 projectiles after 3 p.m. Eighty one rockets landed in open areas, two fell inside villages, damaging two homes, and 20 were intercepted by the Iron Dome air defense system.

Also on Thursday, a drone from Gaza was detected in Israeli airspace, over the Ashkelon area. The IAF fired a patriot surface-to-air missile at the aircraft, shooting it down. It was the second Hamas drone to be shot down in recent days.

The IDF on Thursday warned citizens of Gaza to evacuate their homes and make their way from less populated areas to the Strip's major cities.

Close to 100,000 leaflets containing the message were dropped over the territory and hundreds of thousands of citizens from all over Gaza received recorded phone messages warning them to vacate villages.

Air raid sirens sounded throughout southern and central areas during the day. Ashkelon and Ashdod were targeted by Hamas repeatedly in the evening, and were successfully defended by Iron Dome.

Iron Dome intercepted two rockets over central Israel and the Sharon district in the evening, and one over the city of Ashdod. Several rockets landed in open areas.

The Gaza-border region of Eshkol came under continuous rocket barrages. Some ten rockets in open areas, and one damaged a home.

Between 3 p.m. and 5:30 p.m., Hamas fired 40 rockets at Israel, and Iron Dome shot three down Two rockets were fired at Beersheba, with one falling in an open area and a second intercepted over the Negev city.

Within a minute of the ceasefire ending, rockets were fired from Gaza at the Ashkelon industrial area and Hof Ashkelon region. Most fell in open areas.

The humanitarian ceasefire was violated when Hamas fired 3 projectiles at the Eshkol region. The rockets exploded in open areas.

On Thursday morning, one rocket was intercepted over the greater Tel Aviv and Sharon district, and one rocket fell in an open area. In Beersheba, Iron Dome intercepted an incoming Gazan rocket.
Jul 17 2014 4:08PM
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hooch
Posts: 19 - Karma: -70
who the fuck cares about israel?
Jul 21 2014 3:46PM
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IDMT_BC024
Posts: 224 - Karma: 129
las.A common misconception which many people understandably make. Our ancestors were incredibly violent, far more so than us, and there are observable and explainable long-term trends illustrating this.

Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of Our Nature' will give you an immensly in-depth and eloquent explanation on it. Quite dense, but a tremendous read


Is anyone going to actually argue against this point or just anonymously downvote?
Do some research dumb-asses. The world didn't start the moment you figured out how to turn on the TV.
Jul 21 2014 4:30PM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
IDMT_BC024Is anyone going to actually argue against this point or just anonymously downvote?
Do some research dumb-asses. The world didn't start the moment you figured out how to turn on the TV.


that post doesn't even have a negative rating.
Jul 21 2014 5:12PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
snobunnythat post doesn't even have a negative rating.


Think about it for more then five seconds.
Jul 21 2014 5:22PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,354
zzzskizzzThink about it for more then five seconds.


ugh
Jul 21 2014 5:53PM
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whipple
Posts: 1415 - Karma: 5,167
zzzskizzzthere are 196ish (depends on who you ask) countries in the world that's 6 of them and the Israel/Palestine conflict has been going on forever. If you wanna talk about real violence going on look into South America.


south america as well. Yes there have been far more violent periods of time in the past, I just disagree with Obama's statement that this is the least violent time in history.
Jul 21 2014 8:19PM
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RudyGarmisch
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The referenced post has been removed.



Links to graphic pictures of dead children are not for NSG please.
Jul 21 2014 8:57PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
whipplesouth america as well. Yes there have been far more violent periods of time in the past, I just disagree with Obama's statement that this is the least violent time in history.


Well you are wrong, and you clearly don't want to listen or learn.
Jul 21 2014 9:32PM
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SapperDaddy
Posts: 191 - Karma: 1,168
zzzskizzzWell you are wrong, and you clearly don't want to listen or learn.



So the fact that we just fought 2 wars (1 of which we are still fighting), Iraq is being over run by a group more dangerous then Al-Qaeda, a CIVILIAN airliner was shot down with the help of Russia, Texas just deployed 1000 national guard troops to our Mexican border, and whats going on in Israel and you still think its a peaceful time. Ive been to war its not pretty but sometimes it has to happen.
Jul 21 2014 9:48PM
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corona
Posts: 12795 - Karma: 32,751
SapperDaddySo the fact that we just fought 2 wars (1 of which we are still fighting), Iraq is being over run by a group more dangerous then Al-Qaeda, a CIVILIAN airliner was shot down with the help of Russia, Texas just deployed 1000 national guard troops to our Mexican border, and whats going on in Israel and you still think its a peaceful time. Ive been to war its not pretty but sometimes it has to happen.


now get me a statistic of % of human population being killed as a result of conflict by year or decade. I'd be willing to place money on the 21st century being about the most peaceful period in history when looked at that way.
Jul 21 2014 9:56PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
SapperDaddySo the fact that we just fought 2 wars (1 of which we are still fighting), Iraq is being over run by a group more dangerous then Al-Qaeda, a CIVILIAN airliner was shot down with the help of Russia, Texas just deployed 1000 national guard troops to our Mexican border, and whats going on in Israel and you still think its a peaceful time. Ive been to war its not pretty but sometimes it has to happen.


Again, it's about long-term trends. On a grand scale these conflicts you've cherry picked are all mostly relatively minuscule events compared to the rape and murder and pillaging and torture and general violence our ancestors practiced on a regular basis. We are living in the most peaceful era of our species' existence, and if anyone disagrees, they are disagreeing with proven scientific fact
Jul 21 2014 10:12PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,686
SapperDaddySo the fact that we just fought 2 wars (1 of which we are still fighting), Iraq is being over run by a group more dangerous then Al-Qaeda, a CIVILIAN airliner was shot down with the help of Russia, Texas just deployed 1000 national guard troops to our Mexican border, and whats going on in Israel and you still think its a peaceful time. Ive been to war its not pretty but sometimes it has to happen.


You forgot: Columbia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, Mali, Syria, Thailand is about to cook off, and Liberia is headed back that direction. People in Japan and China want to kill each other over some worthless rocks. China is meanwhile at war with the rest of the world through non kinetic means, but really wants to hint kinetic with Vietnam. Korea is still at war over 60 years latter, with one side controlled by an spoiled idiot brat. Iran is proxing a minimum of two wars (both mentioned) while developing nuclear capabilities. South Africa in less than a decade from another civil war; it will happen once they get done scaring all the rich (re: white) folks out. Bolivia continues to deal with general SA issues. Returning to north Africa / Middle east, Libya is engulfed in civil war in all but name only. Lebanon is almost completely controlled by Iran, due mainly to the utter incompetence of their military, and our unwillingness to match Al-quads involvement and will in the area.

but yeah, overall, there are less LBGs killing each other right now, than at most other times in history.
So, no, it is not a 'peaceful' time, but when compared to the history since the intervention of logistics in war, we are doing alright.
Jul 21 2014 10:27PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
VinnieFnow get me a statistic of % of human population being killed as a result of conflict by year or decade. I'd be willing to place money on the 21st century being about the most peaceful period in history when looked at that way.



Problem with this-war is getting smarter. Less troops and less civilians are dying than previous wars. There is no more carpet bombing or firebombing like WWII and Vietnam. It is tactical strikes, precision bombing, strike teams, etc. Just because there is less death does not mean it is a more peaceful time.

To sum it up, less death=/=a more peaceful time. Less conflict=a more peaceful time.
Jul 21 2014 11:01PM
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Kazabazua
Posts: 3529 - Karma: 1,128
I think it's silly to take anyones side in this war - Isreal and Palestine have both had mass civilian casualties, it's a war between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Also, fuck zionism.
Jul 21 2014 11:33PM
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corona
Posts: 12795 - Karma: 32,751
.MASSHOLE.Problem with this-war is getting smarter. Less troops and less civilians are dying than previous wars. There is no more carpet bombing or firebombing like WWII and Vietnam. It is tactical strikes, precision bombing, strike teams, etc. Just because there is less death does not mean it is a more peaceful time.

To sum it up, less death=/=a more peaceful time. Less conflict=a more peaceful time.


well then this comes down to how you define peaceful.

If war progressed even further to the point of conflicts being sorted out virtually, would you consider that more peaceful?

I'd say our technologies that have allowed us to resolve conflicts with lessened casualties can be translated to more a more peaceful resolution of war. So again, it's becoming a more peaceful time in history.


There really is no better measure to use than cold hard deaths.
Jul 21 2014 11:42PM
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Kazabazua
Posts: 3529 - Karma: 1,128
theBearJewHonestly from reading the beginning of this I thought you were talking about the early American settlers and the Native Americans. Because that sounds just like what happened there. But nobody cares about that.. they just feel bad for Palestine.

Also, there are many different information sources out there, some that say the Jews purchased the land from the Arabs, not stolen. It was rightfully purchased by Jews from Arabs who were willing to sell to the price that Jews were willing to pay. It wasn't until the state of Israel was created that the Arabs were up in arms about Jews owning the land. The Arabs were also willing to sell the land because most of it was of very poor quality. Shit resources, the Arabs didn't see any value in it.

Some of the information about purchasing the land can be found here, http://www.middleeastpiece.com/dispossession_jewishmethods.html

A lot of the conflict also stems from the Arabs refusal to acknowledge the state of Israel. It is practically against their religion to recognize Israel as an independent state. This causes problems because they don't believe that the Jews should have a recognized state and refuse anything from them. When they were given Gaza, the Jews left their jobs, their farms, their families, and their homes to give the Arabs land. Very good land at that, a lot of solid businesses, farms, etc. were just left for the Arabs. You know what they did? Destroyed it all and put rockets in schools, family homes, and other civilian areas.

So what you described above, is not far off of what the Arabs did. Destroying everything they were given because they refused to recognize the state of Israel.




Looking at the current situation. I don't see how people can be mad at Israel for defending themselves. The death toll is 15 for Israel and hundreds for Gaza, yes. But that is because Israel has better defense. That's like saying a guy with an AK47 unloads a 30 round clip at you, misses ever shot or hits your bullet proof vest. Now he is reloading and you have a gun, yet you don't shoot back because he's got bad aim.

Israel accepted the cease fire, is willing to give up land again to the Arabs. All they have to do is accept Israel as a state and live among each other. But they are unwilling to do that, so they will never have peace till one is gone. To me, I don't see how you can support the Arabs who are unwilling to be rational, care about their people, and only worry about ending Israel and the Jews that inhabit it. That is beyond me.


Wow, that's got to be the most credible source of information I've ever seen posted on the interwebz.
Jul 21 2014 11:42PM
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whipple
Posts: 1415 - Karma: 5,167
.MASSHOLE.Problem with this-war is getting smarter. Less troops and less civilians are dying than previous wars. There is no more carpet bombing or firebombing like WWII and Vietnam. It is tactical strikes, precision bombing, strike teams, etc. Just because there is less death does not mean it is a more peaceful time.

To sum it up, less death=/=a more peaceful time. Less conflict=a more peaceful time.



thank you
Jul 22 2014 12:31AM
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BravoWhiskey5280
Posts: 4020 - Karma: 520
Do what you want with it but heres some history on the area:

Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam. Many Jewish Israeli families have been there for thousands of years, such as the Jews commonly referred to as Sephardic or Mizrahi Jews. Many of the Palestinians that are there are immigrants as well. Many of them came from Iraq, Syria, and other Middle Eastern countries that exiled them for their specific clan's religious beliefs and Israel was the only place that let them in. Especially in the 1920's when the economy started booming there and there were jobs that drew immigrants in. Historically, the Jews have had a strong presence in that region and just because many Jews left when the Romans and Ottoman's took over doesn't change the fact that they came back and are there right now. Who are we, or anyone else to say that they can't stay there and protect what they repossessed (at least for the ones who left and came back).ts an impossible argument to settle using the history of the region because both sides have a different definitions whats relevant. If you go by the terms of who the original settlers than its the Jews land. They were forced out by the Christians and Ottoman Empire, fled to Europe, came back after being forced to flee Europe, and are now being pressured to leave because it should be Palestine's. What I don't get is why is it Palestine's? What did they do that makes them more worthy than the Jews?
Jul 22 2014 1:13AM
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BravoWhiskey5280
Posts: 4020 - Karma: 520
Its crazy how some get so upset at the violence going in Gaza. Yet at the same time they are oblivious about dozens of other conflicts happening across the world, many of which are unfortunately even more violent than the one in Gaza. Our government tends to do the same thing in its foreign policy decesions. I presume that this is just a coincidence, none the less its an interesting dynamic to think about.

There's nothing wrong or unjust about these people that are focused on just one issue. I just wonder if their focus on Gaza would change if they knew about these other conflicts. For example, there were 400 people killed in Syria in the last 48 hours yet no bodies talking about it, no bodies protesting in the streets, most have no clue its going on even though this is undeniably a more violent conflict than the one in Gaza. I assume it's cause there are not as many people who are aware of it, but there are probably other reasons as well.

I get the sense people love to hate Israel even though the try harder than most to reduce civilian casualties. Of course there are some exceptions where inhumane things have occurred, but these things are not uncommon and have happened in virtually every conflict throughout the history of man-kind. Thats what war is, its not pretty or nice no matter what side your on. The good guys have always done things we wouldn't consider good and obviously the same goes for the bad guys. Every army has that individual, or in some cases more than one, that is going to do something terrible in battle. I don't know what causes it or why they do it, maybe its that a so-and-so amount of soldiers have this ruthless inhumane psychology and no morals while in battle regardless of what army there in. Who knows though, its seems to be just one of the many natures we humans have while at war. With that said, a country at war should be judged by what its mission, not by some of the individuals in its army.
Jul 22 2014 1:45AM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
VinnieFwell then this comes down to how you define peaceful.

If war progressed even further to the point of conflicts being sorted out virtually, would you consider that more peaceful?

I'd say our technologies that have allowed us to resolve conflicts with lessened casualties can be translated to more a more peaceful resolution of war. So again, it's becoming a more peaceful time in history.


There really is no better measure to use than cold hard deaths.

Exactly, and I think most people assume conflict=death. I do not. There are numerous types of conflicts, be it physical, economical, or virtual. This is not a peaceful period IMO. There is a battle for world-power supremacy right now between the Russians, Chinese, and United States. It covers both economic and virtual battlefields, while the physical aspect is usually levied in a form of a proxy war.

If you want economic conflict examples, look at the Russia-Ukraine issue. The US are not in a physical conflict with Russia nor do I think the US will be. But they certainly are in an economic conflict. There are sanctions being levied against the Russian economy as a means to stop their actions. This certainly can be considered a conflict as the Russians will respond by using economic tools against the United States economy as retribution. While this may lack human casualties from guns, bombs, and other weapons, people are still being affected.

On the virtual side, it is pretty obvious that the use of cyber warfare is rising. The wiretaps on Germany, the attacks on Chinese infrastructure, and attacks on Iranian nuclear facilities. The list goes on. This is a new battleground as we are learning. There may not be any loss of life associated with this type of conflict, but it is there, and it will keep occurring. The US, Chinese, and Russians are all engaging in this type of conflict beneath the surface.

The idea that death measures conflicts and peace is a poor and outdated method. Technology is rapidly overtaking the battlefield as we can see with drones and EOD bots. What happens if fighter pilots become replaced with drones? Or soldiers, tanks, and works do as well? Will we still use human deaths as a figure?
Jul 22 2014 8:17AM
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,633
KazabazuaWow, that's got to be the most credible source of information I've ever seen posted on the interwebz.


Whats funny is that it sources from scholarly journals. Look at the footnotes, each point that is made has a citation that will take you to the footnotes that sources a journal/article.


WoldsWorldIts crazy how some get so upset at the violence going in Gaza. Yet at the same time they are oblivious about dozens of other conflicts happening across the world, many of which are unfortunately even more violent than the one in Gaza.


Its hardly crazy. More that those people are Anti Israel and Anti Semites. The news outlets does cover those other conflicts, just not for very long because they don't get the ratings. Nobody cares about them. But when Israel is involved, people tune in.
Jul 22 2014 9:07AM
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Kazabazua
Posts: 3529 - Karma: 1,128
573 Palestinian civilian deaths, 17 Israeli civilian deaths. Those are the only numbers I need to look at to know who is being the bigger douche is in this scenario.
Jul 22 2014 1:16PM
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skier_boy26
Posts: 11295 - Karma: 502
Kazabazua573 Palestinian civilian deaths, 17 Israeli civilian deaths. Those are the only numbers I need to look at to know who is being the bigger douche is in this scenario.


Considering Hamas' only leverage is civilian deaths...
Jul 22 2014 1:28PM
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JAHpow
Posts: 7282 - Karma: 17,176
Kazabazua573 Palestinian civilian deaths, 17 Israeli civilian deaths. Those are the only numbers I need to look at to know who is being the bigger douche is in this scenario.


You're right. Hamas is a big douche for forcing Palestinians civilians to stay in their homes by rocket sites that Israel is targeting.

At least Israel calls, texts and drops leaflets to civilians telling them to evacuate and where to go.
Jul 22 2014 1:30PM
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Kazabazua
Posts: 3529 - Karma: 1,128
JAHpowYou're right. Hamas is a big douche for forcing Palestinians civilians to stay in their homes by rocket sites that Israel is targeting.

At least Israel calls, texts and drops leaflets to civilians telling them to evacuate and where to go.


The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world with around 10,000 people living in each square mile. You've got to take into account children, elderly people, people with disabilities and where to move this many people with such an abrupt warning - which Israel hasn't done. They bomb the places whether or not civilians have left and Hamas are the assholes?

Israel killed over 600 Palestinians at this point, Palestine has killed around 29 Israelis - And Hamas are the terrorists? Give me a break you sheeple.
Jul 22 2014 2:43PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
KazabazuaThe Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world with around 10,000 people living in each square mile. You've got to take into account children, elderly people, people with disabilities and where to move this many people with such an abrupt warning - which Israel hasn't done. They bomb the places whether or not civilians have left and Hamas are the assholes?

Israel killed over 600 Palestinians at this point, Palestine has killed around 29 Israelis - And Hamas are the terrorists? Give me a break you sheeple.


What about the Hamas terrorists who bomb both Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

Obviously this is not an IDEAL solution, but please, offer a better one.
Jul 22 2014 2:58PM
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profa_212
Posts: 8897 - Karma: 35,864
KazabazuaThe Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world with around 10,000 people living in each square mile. You've got to take into account children, elderly people, people with disabilities and where to move this many people with such an abrupt warning - which Israel hasn't done. They bomb the places whether or not civilians have left and Hamas are the assholes?

Israel killed over 600 Palestinians at this point, Palestine has killed around 29 Israelis - And Hamas are the terrorists? Give me a break you sheeple.


So because Israel has a better defense system, warns their people to get to shelter, and even tells their enemies people when they are going to get rockets in their area, they are the bad guys?

Meanwhile Hamas deploy troops in heavily populated areas, and then forces the civilians to stay there in an attempt to protect their rockets. They really left Israel very few choices in this matter. The only better solution I could think of would be for Israel to get boots on the ground and just end this. But that would still cause a lot of casualties for both sides.

Probably getting trolled, but oh well!
Jul 22 2014 3:25PM
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Jeebus.
Posts: 4904 - Karma: 5,822
RACE WAR RACE WAR!!!!!!
Jul 22 2014 3:48PM
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Bombogenesis
Posts: 1984 - Karma: 4,006
Kazabazua573 Palestinian civilian deaths, 17 Israeli civilian deaths. Those are the only numbers I need to look at to know who is being the bigger douche is in this scenario.


This post lacks grey matter.
Jul 22 2014 3:48PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
are you guys fucking crazy? what on earth makes you think arguing side to side on this has any conclusion? is it just wishful thinking, wanting this to be simple and black and white?

there's no "GOOD GUY" and "BAD GUY" here, it's a super complex problem and both sides have plenty of blood on their hands-- you will NEVER win an argument about it, nevermind by saying "well X side did this, and Y did that." it's just so far gone past that point it boggles my mind that anyone besides paid shills would ever seriously try to make an argument like that

yell less and spend that time reading news from all sides of the issue...sorry to preach but if you really think one side here is ""good"" and the other is ""bad"" youre painfully, ridiculously naive
Jul 22 2014 4:03PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,354
RubberSoulare you guys fucking crazy? what on earth makes you think arguing side to side on this has any conclusion? is it just wishful thinking, wanting this to be simple and black and white?

there's no "GOOD GUY" and "BAD GUY" here, it's a super complex problem and both sides have plenty of blood on their hands-- you will NEVER win an argument about it, nevermind by saying "well X side did this, and Y did that." it's just so far gone past that point it boggles my mind that anyone besides paid shills would ever seriously try to make an argument like that

yell less and spend that time reading news from all sides of the issue...sorry to preach but if you really think one side here is ""good"" and the other is ""bad"" youre painfully, ridiculously naive


so youre saying its the muslims fault?
Jul 22 2014 4:47PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,686
El_Barto.so youre saying its the muslims fault?


Fuckin' Hagar. That slut started this whole thing.
Jul 22 2014 5:42PM
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JAHpow
Posts: 7282 - Karma: 17,176
KazabazuaYou've got to take into account children, elderly people, people with disabilities and where to move this many people with such an abrupt warning - which Israel hasn't done. They bomb the places whether or not civilians have left and Hamas are the assholes?


Hamas is deliberately putting their rocket sites by hospitals and health facilities where those people are because they know they can't evacuate them quickly enough. So yeah, Hamas are assholes for putting Palestinians in danger.
Jul 22 2014 5:42PM
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Kazabazua
Posts: 3529 - Karma: 1,128
JAHpowHamas is deliberately putting their rocket sites by hospitals and health facilities where those people are because they know they can't evacuate them quickly enough. So yeah, Hamas are assholes for putting Palestinians in danger.


I'm not supporting what Hamas is doing in any way, shape or form - what I'm saying is western society likes to throw the word 'terrorist' around a lot, but in this situation I would call Israel the bigger 'terrorist'. It is now over 630 civilian deaths to 2 civilians deaths (27 of Israel's deaths were soldiers, just found that out last night) - more people die in car accidents everyday in Israel than are killed by a barrage of rockets from Gaza over two weeks time - am I saying it's okay for Hamas to have that intent? No. But they are pretty shitty at what they do, are they really that big of a threat? This war is like a preschooler with some bad intentions vs Mike Tyson.

Also, the whole 'civilian human shield' idea that's being thrown around could be a propoganda piece from Netanyahu to justify killing over 600 civilians, it shifts the blame from his party to his enemies - I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, but it's possible it's being blown out of proportion (no pun intended), I'm just speculating. Israel is US backed and most of the media companies in North America are owned by Jews, so I am skeptical about all of the information that we are receiving (it is also the reason this war is getting so much attention, there are bigger things happening in the world right now). Is it biased, is it unbiased? I don't know, but I like to question what I am told and not just receive it like a hot load in my eyes.

I'm not siding with Hamas, because they've done some borderline retarded shit and I'm not siding with Israel because they've retaliated in an inappropriate fashion (IMO). It would be nice if everyone could live in harmony but with the hatred I've seen from both sides not to mention Israel's Zionist beliefs I don't see this war ending any time soon or in a fair, humanitarian way.

Question what you're being told. Big ups for having strong opinions - even if they disagree with mine.
Jul 23 2014 8:55AM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
KazabazuaI'm not supporting what Hamas is doing in any way, shape or form - what I'm saying is western society likes to throw the word 'terrorist' around a lot, but in this situation I would call Israel the bigger 'terrorist'. It is now over 630 civilian deaths to 2 civilians deaths (27 of Israel's deaths were soldiers, just found that out last night) - more people die in car accidents everyday in Israel than are killed by a barrage of rockets from Gaza over two weeks time - am I saying it's okay for Hamas to have that intent? No. But they are pretty shitty at what they do, are they really that big of a threat? This war is like a preschooler with some bad intentions vs Mike Tyson.

Also, the whole 'civilian human shield' idea that's being thrown around could be a propoganda piece from Netanyahu to justify killing over 600 civilians, it shifts the blame from his party to his enemies - I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, but it's possible it's being blown out of proportion (no pun intended), I'm just speculating. Israel is US backed and most of the media companies in North America are owned by Jews, so I am skeptical about all of the information that we are receiving (it is also the reason this war is getting so much attention, there are bigger things happening in the world right now). Is it biased, is it unbiased? I don't know, but I like to question what I am told and not just receive it like a hot load in my eyes.

I'm not siding with Hamas, because they've done some borderline retarded shit and I'm not siding with Israel because they've retaliated in an inappropriate fashion (IMO). It would be nice if everyone could live in harmony but with the hatred I've seen from both sides not to mention Israel's Zionist beliefs I don't see this war ending any time soon or in a fair, humanitarian way.

Question what you're being told. Big ups for having strong opinions - even if they disagree with mine.


While it still is a "Western" source of information, the BBC is normally very critical of all international affairs, unlike the US news, and has done a very good job covering both this incident and the Malaysian Airline incident. They are willing to run articles such as this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626, which says the UN is willing to look into claims that Israel engaged in Human Rights Violations as did Hamas.

It is easy to call Hamas a terrorist organization, but to call Israel a terrorist state is a little more difficult. State terrorism is defined by the US as "acts of terrorism conducted by governments or terrorism carried out
directly by, or encouraged and funded by, an established government of a state (country) or terrorism
practiced by a government against its own people or in support of international terrorism". Israel is not engaging in terrorism against its own people, nor is it support international terrorism. Rather, as the picture seems to have been painted, it is defending itself against a recognized terrorist organization. If we were to consider Israel terrorists, then you would have to consider the Turkish, Indonesian, and Russian governments terrorist states. Each of these governments is suppressing/engaging in warfare against national groups (Kurds, Tamils, Ukrainians, Georgians, etc) but none of these countries are being labeled as terrorist states.

I think, therefore, it would be more appropriate to recognize Israel as an aggressor rather than a terrorist in this situation.

If anyone wants a good take on the whole motivating factors behind Hamas taking on Israel, here is a good read.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28371966
Jul 23 2014 9:27AM
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GayWolf420
Posts: 37390 - Karma: 120,134
RubberSoulare you guys fucking crazy? what on earth makes you think arguing side to side on this has any conclusion? is it just wishful thinking, wanting this to be simple and black and white?

there's no "GOOD GUY" and "BAD GUY" here, it's a super complex problem and both sides have plenty of blood on their hands-- you will NEVER win an argument about it, nevermind by saying "well X side did this, and Y did that." it's just so far gone past that point it boggles my mind that anyone besides paid shills would ever seriously try to make an argument like that

yell less and spend that time reading news from all sides of the issue...sorry to preach but if you really think one side here is ""good"" and the other is ""bad"" youre painfully, ridiculously naive


good post here.
Jul 23 2014 12:28PM
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cool_name
Posts: 4295 - Karma: 3,131
El_Barto.so youre saying its the muslims fault?


Pretty sure he was blaming the mayalisian airline
Jul 23 2014 2:30PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
'Israel Bombs Gaza's Only Power Plant as Toll Nears 650'

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/headlines
Jul 23 2014 9:30PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10627 - Karma: 7,423
KazabazuaThe Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world with around 10,000 people living in each square mile. You've got to take into account children, elderly people, people with disabilities and where to move this many people with such an abrupt warning - which Israel hasn't done. They bomb the places whether or not civilians have left and Hamas are the assholes?


Their terrorists dude, they couldn't care less about their "civilians".

Israel has shown rather great restraint IMO. because if they wanted to, they could pretty much disintegrate the whole strip in an hour.
Jul 23 2014 10:22PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51644 - Karma: 162,264
Granite_StateIsrael should just sack up and wipe the gaza strip off the map already.


Oh great, this again on the internet.


Israel has never done anything wrong, they are perfect. WOOHOO YEA ISRAEL GO KILL ERRBODY CAUSE YOU SO RIGHTEOUS!

or something like that.
Jul 23 2014 10:25PM
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Dolan.Escobar
Posts: 683 - Karma: 943
Profahoben_212True to an extent, but it is not an uncommon thing for the lesser side to win. I could give tons of examples.

Also what do you mean by iq? Do you actually know the iq's of the civilizations, or are you just going off better technology?

I read it somewhere, not sure how they calculated historical nat avg iqs, could be thru technology, idk
blondie.You're getting trolled.

No hes not, im being serious
Jul 23 2014 10:34PM
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Dolan.Escobar
Posts: 683 - Karma: 943
Dolan.EscobarI read it somewhere, not sure how they calculated historical nat avg iqs, could be thru technology, idk

No hes not, im being serious


I mean it makes perfect sense, wars are more often won by the side with superior weapons, and that is most likely correlated with higher avg iq of a nation/state. Like when one side has a far superior weapon, the battles are simply massacres
Jul 23 2014 10:37PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,298
RubberSoulare you guys fucking crazy? what on earth makes you think arguing side to side on this has any conclusion? is it just wishful thinking, wanting this to be simple and black and white?

there's no "GOOD GUY" and "BAD GUY" here, it's a super complex problem and both sides have plenty of blood on their hands-- you will NEVER win an argument about it, nevermind by saying "well X side did this, and Y did that." it's just so far gone past that point it boggles my mind that anyone besides paid shills would ever seriously try to make an argument like that

yell less and spend that time reading news from all sides of the issue...sorry to preach but if you really think one side here is ""good"" and the other is ""bad"" youre painfully, ridiculously naive


Quoting for emphasis. Both sides are fucked in their justifications for what they are doing. Hamas is just as guilty as Israel. I wish the U.S. wasn't allies with Israel because this truly isn't our problem...
Jul 23 2014 10:37PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,298
theabortionatorOh great, this again on the internet.


Israel has never done anything wrong, they are perfect. WOOHOO YEA ISRAEL GO KILL ERRBODY CAUSE YOU SO RIGHTEOUS!

or something like that.


Also, sorry if I believe the Jews have a right to live peacefully somewhere on this fucking planet. They have been persecuted for thousands of years for literally no reason. I don't think the formation of Israel was the greatest idea but shit, for all the stuff they've been through they deserve some stake on this planet.

That doesn't discount the horrible things they've done but if your a country surrounded by other countries that want to wipe you off the face of the earth, what are you supposed to do???
Jul 23 2014 10:41PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
Granite_StateI wish the U.S. wasn't allies with Israel because this truly isn't our problem...


America has massively exacerbated this conflict by funding and arming Israel over the decades; sorry, but you are a major part of the problem
Jul 23 2014 10:45PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,298
las.America has massively exacerbated this conflict by funding and arming Israel over the decades; sorry, but you are a major part of the problem


I'm talking about the media pretty much saying Israel is innocent and Hamas are the worst human beings possible.

Obviously we are the problem, without us Israel would have been long since taken over. I'm saying the American media should stop caring (though they won't) because this conflict affects us in no way, shape, or form. If Hamas wins, so what? If Israel wins we hold our stake in the Middle East. Thats about it.
Jul 23 2014 10:49PM
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Scaredwhiteboy
Posts: 1395 - Karma: -938
All Israel does is win. I couldn't be happier to be their ally. The fact that they're killing hodgies is just icing on the cake.
Jul 23 2014 10:53PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
las.America has massively exacerbated this conflict by funding and arming Israel over the decades; sorry, but you are a major part of the problem


It is SO much more complicated than this.

There is no correct answer about whose fault this conflict is. Simple enough.
Jul 23 2014 10:56PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
.MASSHOLE.It is SO much more complicated than this.

There is no correct answer about whose fault this conflict is. Simple enough.


I understand it's a lot more complex than that. All I'm saying is it's absurd to act as if the U.S. isn't part of the problem
Jul 23 2014 11:08PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,298
las.I understand it's a lot more complex than that. All I'm saying is it's absurd to act as if the U.S. isn't part of the problem


I mean it is as far as the government is concerned but the American people have far different opinions, something it seems is hard for you foreigners to understand...
Jul 23 2014 11:11PM
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