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Would this work/be useful?

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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
I think this idea could be useful to carving skis and race skis, not so much use for park skies and useless in pow.
If you put a current through the metal edges of skis to heat them, theoretically, they would act as an ice skate does on ice and create a lower coefficient of friction and also make the edge dig and grip a little better.
This could easily be done with a small PCB and a battery. For racing, to keep down weight, the battery could be small (one or two runs worth) and just swap it for a charged battery. For daily runs, a battery set could be put somewhere unobtrusive.

What do you think? Would it work? Would it be useless? It literally would take 5 minutes to design a prototype and a day to build a ghetto rigged one. I dont plan to build it.
Jun 12 2014 10:03AM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
idk enough about the physical aspect of it to answer but wouldn't keeping your entire metal edge warm, out in the cold, take quite a lot of energy?
Jun 12 2014 10:13AM
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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
RubberSoulidk enough about the physical aspect of it to answer but wouldn't keeping your entire metal edge warm, out in the cold, take quite a lot of energy?


You dont need very much current to significantly heat up something with very low resistance (a strip of metal). An ice skate works because the thin blade creates friction on the ice molecules, heating it up and momentarily melting the ice under it. You just need a little heat and the edge would do the rest of the work. You wouldnt need a red hot edge.

Also, the ski would have to be designed for this if it was ever really used. It wouldnt be a bolt on kit or anything. I dont think the ptex would respond well to it if it wasnt designed for this purpose and the PCB could easily be embedded in the ski.
Jun 12 2014 10:18AM
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jellomellow
Posts: 961 - Karma: 3,562
Dident signol snowboards try something like this?
Jun 12 2014 10:24AM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
no i understand how a skate works, im just thinking that your metal edges out on top of a mountain in the winter are going to take more energy than you think to keep warm enough to make a difference

i have no clue though ill just shut my whore mouth and listen for a few rounds
Jun 12 2014 10:25AM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
A ski already slides on a layer of water that is created by the friction between the base and the snow, that's where the friction is. That's why we have different temp waxs to adapt to the difference in temps in snow. I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel for no huge reason or gain. Good highdea tho.
Jun 12 2014 10:25AM
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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
japanadaA ski already slides on a layer of water that is created by the friction between the base and the snow, that's where the friction is. That's why we have different temp waxs to adapt to the difference in temps in snow. I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel for no huge reason or gain. Good highdea tho.


I under stand the bases do that already and as I states I understand the edges do that too, but when you add heat, you would be able to dig deeper and gain grip theoretically. Its not so much reinventing the wheel because it would be about 5 minutes of circuit design (if even that) and maybe an hour to make a waterproof breadboard/pcb to prototype. It may however be a failure in itself because it may not add enough grip to be useful.
Also, friction causes heat, when you add heat, you can lower friction. Thus, theoretically you will ski faster. Though that is not the point of this idea, it is theoretically there. The point was to aid in grip on icey race or mogul runs.
Jun 12 2014 10:29AM
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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
japanadaA ski already slides on a layer of water that is created by the friction between the base and the snow, that's where the friction is. That's why we have different temp waxs to adapt to the difference in temps in snow. I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel for no huge reason or gain. Good highdea tho.


I understand the bases do that already and as I states I understand the edges do that too, but when you add heat, you would be able to dig deeper and gain grip theoretically. Its not so much reinventing the wheel because it would be about 5 minutes of circuit design (if even that) and maybe an hour to make a waterproof breadboard/pcb to prototype. It may however be a failure in itself because it may not add enough grip to be useful.
Also, friction causes heat, when you add heat, you can lower friction. Thus, theoretically you will ski faster. Though that is not the point of this idea, it is theoretically there. The point was to aid in grip on icey race or mogul runs.
Jun 12 2014 10:29AM
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-snochainz-
Posts: 130 - Karma: 273
This actually makes sense. Work on snow? probably not so well, but solid ice? Yeah, it would probably help a little. Even if this is ever adopted/used, I can't really see it being used outside of recreational purposes.
Jun 12 2014 10:40AM
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Ghini
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 3,002
The heat will make the wax in the bases melt quicker so you will get dry bases quicker, mainly next to the edges, so you will go slower?
Jun 12 2014 10:48AM
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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
-snochainz-This actually makes sense. Work on snow? probably not so well, but solid ice? Yeah, it would probably help a little. Even if this is ever adopted/used, I can't really see it being used outside of recreational purposes.


Yeah thats pretty much what I was thinking. It would possibly work on ice. But in any fluff at all it wouldnt do anything.
I have no intention of making this and I had no thought that it would be used practically. But, racers are always looking for that extra edge (figuratively and literally) and this could possibly make it feel like you have a really sharp edge always.
In a practical sense, someone would have to spend a lot of time dialing it in. But, I could take a ski and connect a battery with a little circuitry and heat the fuck out of an edge and I know that would help. It would also probably ruin my ski and drain the battery really quickly.
It was just one of many stupid idea floating around in my ADHD head.
Jun 12 2014 10:52AM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
jellomellowDident signol snowboards try something like this?


Hopefully the embed works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nOMcl_rbgk

But yeah, Signal had tried it. I think it's a lot of hassle for very little gain, but it's still a cool concept.
Jun 12 2014 11:13AM
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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
NinetyFourHopefully the embed works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nOMcl_rbgk

But yeah, Signal had tried it. I think it's a lot of hassle for very little gain, but it's still a cool concept.


Well, that solves that. Thanks for looking that up.
Jun 12 2014 11:17AM
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CheddarJack
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 7,380
In short, I don't think it'll work.

Skis and skates slide so smoothly because the layer of water it creates is so small. The amount of water that's created is so small that it freezes the instant your ski or skate stops touching it. If it were any more, the water would act as an adhesive to your base and would slow you down - this is what happens in slush and soft, warm snow.

The reason that the amount of water is the perfect amount? Because it isn't the heat of your ski or skate that melts the ice - it's the pressure from them. Water is pretty unique because the curve from solid to liquid on it's phase diagram has a negative slope (you probably learned this in your high school chemistry class). Take a gander.
Jun 12 2014 11:52AM
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kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,100
CheddarJackIn short, I don't think it'll work.

Skis and skates slide so smoothly because the layer of water it creates is so small. The amount of water that's created is so small that it freezes the instant your ski or skate stops touching it. If it were any more, the water would act as an adhesive to your base and would slow you down - this is what happens in slush and soft, warm snow.

The reason that the amount of water is the perfect amount? Because it isn't the heat of your ski or skate that melts the ice - it's the pressure from them. Water is pretty unique because the curve from solid to liquid on it's phase diagram has a negative slope (you probably learned this in your high school chemistry class). Take a gander.


You are right and wrong. It is heat that causes the layer of water. It is caused by friction and pressure. The exothermic property of friction melts the snow with the release of heat and the pressure creates vibrations in the molecules which release heat as well. So, it is heat that is actually making the snow melt.
Again, I am not looking to make a ski faster by heating the base. I was commenting on the fact that it might be easier to hold an edge on hardpack/ice with a hot edge.
Jun 12 2014 12:04PM
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CheddarJack
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 7,380
kingsskierYou are right and wrong. It is heat that causes the layer of water. It is caused by friction and pressure. The exothermic property of friction melts the snow with the release of heat and the pressure creates vibrations in the molecules which release heat as well. So, it is heat that is actually making the snow melt.
Again, I am not looking to make a ski faster by heating the base. I was commenting on the fact that it might be easier to hold an edge on hardpack/ice with a hot edge.


Ah, of course. Alright so in terms of gripping the ice it may help but I think it will slow you down too much for it to be useful overall. But when you're going so fast, can the temperature of your edge really have that much of an effect on the ice/snow? It'll be the friction and pressure, as you and I said, that will melt the snow, not the heat from your ski. They're only in contact with each other for a fraction of a second. I'm thinking unless its really hot will it have any effect.
Jun 12 2014 12:50PM
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