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Women can already triple

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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
The article from Redbull:

https://www.newschoolers.com/readnews/45360.0/Katie-Ormerod-s-World-s-first-female-double-cork-1080

Got me to do a quick google...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo3mn04GYsw

And you have to admit there is *some* irony at the fact that women have been doing triples for a while in aerials, yet in skiing and snowboarding right now we're treating it like the fact that doubles are almost a unicorn feat.

I know that there's a major different style involved, but come on....

Also, note that this argument applies to men exactly the same. First quad on skis was done in 1983.

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/740232/Frank-Bare-quadruple-flip-on-skis-1983

Why do we think we're re-inventing this stuff to the point that we can re-claim 'first ever' for the second time?

[serious not sarcastic]
Jun 10 2014 10:16PM
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C_Bechtold
Posts: 352 - Karma: 1,405
I think it's time I sack up and do a double
Jun 10 2014 10:18PM
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Mingg
Posts: 13978 - Karma: 49,320
I
Jun 10 2014 10:26PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Hate to do this Doug, but a double rodeo is different than a double cork.
Jun 10 2014 10:31PM
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Alvaro
Posts: 323 - Karma: 2,066
because those triples and quads are done without poles, grabs, and on standardized sized jumps (i wouldn't even call that skiing, its more like gymnastics)
Jun 10 2014 10:35PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
DarthVaderHate to do this Doug, but a double rodeo is different than a double cork.


Sure, but its not THAT different. Anyway, what is your point? I agree they are different, but I don't agree that they are so different from the aforementioned triple that we should be going around claiming the 'first'.

Alvarobecause those triples and quads are done without poles, grabs, and on standardized sized jumps (i wouldn't even call that skiing, its more like gymnastics)


That snowboarder didn't have poles. Grabs are just a different body position, and every single double/triple is simply 'tucked' - don't try to tell me that they dramatically differently grab their skis and change body position.

Standardized jumps you got me there. Park jumps aren't *that* different though.... not to the point where you can go claiming that THIS TRICK HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. Its starting to seem like a technicality or media stunt to me.

Please argue with me - I just want to bring this up.. as its bugging me.
Jun 10 2014 10:40PM
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freeskibum82
Posts: 6355 - Karma: 5,055
you need to get a summer hobby...
Jun 10 2014 10:41PM
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Craigskis
Posts: 6650 - Karma: 1,645
Before I even opened this thread I knew it'd be a throwback to Women's aerials.
Jun 10 2014 10:43PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
CraigskisBefore I even opened this thread I knew it'd be a throwback to Women's aerials.


Yes, but there is some logic, no?

I mean feel free to tell me I'm absolutely wrong with zero basis for my argument. I will listen.
Jun 10 2014 10:46PM
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Alvaro
Posts: 323 - Karma: 2,066
Mr.BishopSure, but its not THAT different. Anyway, what is your point? I agree they are different, but I don't agree that they are so different from the aforementioned triple that we should be going around claiming the 'first'.



That snowboarder didn't have poles. Grabs are just a different body position, and every single double/triple is simply 'tucked' - don't try to tell me that they dramatically differently grab their skis and change body position.

Standardized jumps you got me there. Park jumps aren't *that* different though.... not to the point where you can go claiming that THIS TRICK HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. Its starting to seem like a technicality or media stunt to me.

Please argue with me - I just want to bring this up.. as its bugging me.


i agree that women have already landed a triple, and that a quad has also been done, but nobody has ever done a quad cork, rodeo or misty, i think freeskiing is not only about what kind of spin or flip you can do, its more about how you can take those tricks to sick diferent places and situations.
i would totally prefer to watch this than a triple cork on a slopestyle comp
http://youtu.be/IzixX5sQixE
Jun 10 2014 10:56PM
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Nate.Dog
Posts: 1672 - Karma: 2,098
Mr.BishopYes, but there is some logic, no?

I mean feel free to tell me I'm absolutely wrong with zero basis for my argument. I will listen.


I'd say there's some pretty big differences, between doing a triple:

on axis vs. off axis (a cork, rodeo, bio, are all way harder than a back full),

on a park jump vs. an arials jump (not even in the same realm),

with a grab/ in a penciled out gymnastics spin where you have perfect control of your rotation at any point,

actually knowing how to ski/snowboard instead of taking off straight/landing straight in a pile of slush

Sure they are both technically "triples" but the differences are numerous and noticeable.
Jun 10 2014 11:05PM
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BROLF
Posts: 1598 - Karma: 5,098
I don't think they are nearly as similar as you think, the jump and the axis mainly. The jumps are built for the tricks, they call the jumps "doubles" and "triples" because those are the only tricks you do off them, and the jump does a lot of the initial throwing for you. Watch a freestyle triple cork verses and aerials triple, the triple cork takes a lot more throwing with your arms. Also, when you throw a trick on axis, you either make it around or you don't, when you do a triple cork, you could come out completely sideways because it being off axis makes it more difficult.
Jun 10 2014 11:19PM
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corona
Posts: 12799 - Karma: 32,775
Nate.Dogon axis vs. off axis (a cork, rodeo, bio, are all way harder than a back full),


from talking to people who can actually do a back full, it's apparently much more difficult than a cork or rodeo. I'm talking about moguls here, but same deal really. back full much more difficult than a cork 7 or rodeo 7.
Jun 10 2014 11:20PM
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Mingg
Posts: 13978 - Karma: 49,320
Alvarobecause those triples and quads are done without poles, grabs, and on standardized sized jumps (i wouldn't even call that skiing, its more like gymnastics)


Aerialists stick to back and front on-axis flips. Easiest things to do. Double and triples are not very different. They're the same except a triple needs more height and faster rotation. The same day I threw my first double, I landed my first triple on the tramp. /claim. So the difficulty between the two is not very different.

So yeah, these skiers did the first triples and quads but freeskiers do off axis spins which are very different. A triple cork, rodeo, etc are way different than a triple in aerials so it can't really be held to the same standards.
Jun 10 2014 11:21PM
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rsvp
Posts: 1516 - Karma: 2,611
Aerials jumps help with their rotations a lot I feel like.

Go try and straight air an aerials jump....not a chance haha
Jun 10 2014 11:25PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
No one has really been claiming these as firsts in general. They've been marketed as first in freeskiing, or first in the park, etc. I don't think there's a real debate there.
The thread title is much more relevant. WOMEN CAN TRIPLE. It's already happened. So why is it only in aerials, and not in the park? That's a real discussion right there.
Jun 10 2014 11:31PM
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corona
Posts: 12799 - Karma: 32,775
p-foWOMEN CAN TRIPLE. It's already happened. So why is it only in aerials, and not in the park? That's a real discussion right there.


because aerials has been around far longer with far better training programs and more money to train and much more motivation with it having been an Olympic sport for far longer combined with the fact that aerials jumps are better designed for doing more inverts than park jumps.

really isn't much of a discussion.
Jun 10 2014 11:36PM
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BlueVillain
Posts: 405 - Karma: 2,398
Nate.DogI'd say there's some pretty big differences, between doing a triple:

on axis vs. off axis (a cork, rodeo, bio, are all way harder than a back full),

on a park jump vs. an arials jump (not even in the same realm),

with a grab/ in a penciled out gymnastics spin where you have perfect control of your rotation at any point,

actually knowing how to ski/snowboard instead of taking off straight/landing straight in a pile of slush

Sure they are both technically "triples" but the differences are numerous and noticeable.


I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THAT. I WOULD HAVE SAID IT MYSELF THANKS NATE DOG.
Jun 10 2014 11:44PM
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@nonymous
Posts: 521 - Karma: 1,364
Alvaroi agree that women have already landed a triple, and that a quad has also been done


Im glad you agree, because its a fact
Jun 10 2014 11:46PM
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Erikgorn
Posts: 369 - Karma: 1,844
Teach Franky a mute grab and he takes Olympics
Jun 10 2014 11:56PM
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S.J.W
Posts: 7609 - Karma: 31,185
Although the aerial jump does alot of the pre rotation for you, stop taking away from the fact that a woman has tripled and a man has done a quad. Whether it's a backfull or cork it's still a triple. I think alot of you are just buthurt because aerials is kicking freeskiing ass in terms of progression and spinning.
Jun 10 2014 11:57PM
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BROLF
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VinnieFfrom talking to people who can actually do a back full, it's apparently much more difficult than a cork or rodeo. I'm talking about moguls here, but same deal really. back full much more difficult than a cork 7 or rodeo 7.


I've done back fulls on skis, they are not hard just weird because you aren't used to that axis. Plus it would be even easier with a aerials jump.
Jun 10 2014 11:59PM
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acualywasdolan
Posts: 1172 - Karma: -747
Its a valid point bishop, but in aerials the primary spin is flipping rotations with the spin being the actual cork. Freeskiing its usually the opposite
Jun 11 2014 12:01AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
The referenced post has been removed.


To an external eye, I would almost guarantee you that park skiing is seen as 'not skiing'. I mean the average dude in vail crushing groomers all day doesn't think there's much of a 'not skiing' difference between aerials, urban and big air. None of that is within their reality.

You need to make sure that you don't abstract aerials without having proper domain knowledge. You may know the park, know slopestyle and know big air. That doesn't make them more right or less alien to others. Aerials was exactly the same sport as us not super long ago. I mean we're dropping our poles now too...

I know there's a difference in style between the two. I'm not ignorant or stupid, trust me. I'm just pointing out the fact that we're getting pretty nit-picky if we think a few degrees of rotation and a slightly different jump make something a complete first.
Jun 11 2014 12:14AM
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tiger5167
Posts: 96 - Karma: 482
fuck yes aussies shredding!
Jun 11 2014 12:33AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
This is a most interesting argument when it comes to tricks. Perhaps one of the most relevant questions in newschool skiing today. Are they different in value and if so why?
Jun 11 2014 1:00AM
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Puzzled
Posts: 4267 - Karma: 4,448
edge control, we win scukaas
Jun 11 2014 1:26AM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
women's skiing is now...aerials?
Jun 11 2014 1:40AM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-iepu3EtyE
Jun 11 2014 1:41AM
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suup
Posts: 1485 - Karma: 4,367
But can they do the switch
Jun 11 2014 1:43AM
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Willard
Posts: 5117 - Karma: 429
Did you see when Dollo reinvented a cork 7 it was revolutionary
Jun 11 2014 1:50AM
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steezyclezy
Posts: 217 - Karma: 1,260
yeah freeskiing is always in aerial's shadow in a way, which is why hucking spins doesn't feel like proper freeskiing. snowboarding doesn't have this burden though, so technically them doing triples is much more significant than us. keep freeskiing real by adding cool grabs and doing it backwards, and then triples are something properly brilliant.
Jun 11 2014 1:50AM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
cool
Jun 11 2014 2:26AM
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-Dan
Posts: 7131 - Karma: 51,770
This is why I ski rails.
Jun 11 2014 2:34AM
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E__
Posts: 5751 - Karma: 4,635
skisocksBut can they do the switch


This and all of this. A switch-whatever has never been done in aerials thus becoming the "first".
Jun 11 2014 2:46AM
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AhrenStein
Posts: 1941 - Karma: 177
BROLFI've done back fulls on skis, they are not hard just weird because you aren't used to that axis. Plus it would be even easier with a aerials jump.


I can pretty much guarantee you have not done a proper back full on skis, or even know what tilt twist is for that matter. I doubt that many people in this thread know what tilt twist is.

Maybe you have done really flippy d-7s/cork 7s but unless someone taught you tilt twist as a form of generating twist, you haven't done a back full.
Jun 11 2014 2:57AM
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GapersGoneWild
Posts: 90 - Karma: 5,505
look at the landing. that is all.

no freeskiers touch their asses down like these guys
Jun 11 2014 3:51AM
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hank.ski
Posts: 1130 - Karma: 3,788
Wow these comments blow...

Dougie doug doug, While I agree that people have gone upside down more than 3 times on skis before, this isn't even the same sport as ours. I don't know if you've ever had a chance to watch ariels in person before (it's a pleasure), but they aren't even really skiing. For instance, I got to watch the Chinese national team train ariels at the UOP in Park City, and those guys can't even ski. They are literally gymnasts trained to adapt trampoline or diving moves to a ski jump. like I was watching these guys ski like absolute gapers on the mountain, and do things in the air that I wouldn't dream of. So first: Not skiing.

Second: There is a huge difference between flipping once, twice, three times, etc., and doing an off axis trick. Park skiers don't do a trick by leaning back off a jump that you literally have to flip and making minor arm placement adjustments (no offense ariels). In fact, it's been more than a decade since an on axis flip was even considered to be on par with other park-oriented tricks, unless you count dumont's double fronts back in the day (I definitely DON'T. I mean a dub front beating a dub cork in x games, cmon).

So yeah, men and women have done double or triple or quadruple flips on a pair of skis before, but let's not compare apples to genocide. A double cork, double rodeo, or any other off axis rotation is a completely different concept than a triple full or whatever. I wouldn't even see it as any different than umbrellaing skiing and rollerblading, or snowboarding.

p.s. If we really want some hard hitting discussion about this, someone grab an interview with Nate Ferguson. That dude is rad, and has 100% authority in determining the verdict to this debate. Hell, I'd interview the dude.

/endrant
Jun 11 2014 5:29AM
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hank.ski
Posts: 1130 - Karma: 3,788
/reopen rant for a few more offhand bits after rereading the comments.

•park skiing may not be considered skiing by sir Onlylapsgroomers, but that's irrelevant. Park skiing is still a different sport than ariels. That would be like saying that sex and shitting are the same thing, because neither of them are skiing.

•"That's why I ski rails"
that shit pisses me off. You don't only ski rails because you don't like the depth of jump culture/history, you only ski rails because you're scared shitless of jumping, you're exceptionally bad at it, or you just don't enjoy it. If you don't do something purely because it's unoriginal, you suck. period. And that, by (modern) definition, makes you a total fucking hipster twat.

•Who gives a flying fuck about poles. It doesn't make that much of a difference, purely personal preference really. Everyone knows someone who feels more comfortable in the air with poles, and vice versa.
Jun 11 2014 5:47AM
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InspiredMedia
Posts: 492 - Karma: 41,098
aerials, slopesyle, big air... its all the same and people evolve freestyle different ways they see it. freestyle skiing becomes these sports of moguls, aerials, ballet, slopestyle, half pipe, big air and even skiercross(freestyle racing in a group).

here is a live example of evolution of freestyle skiing from the 1975 World Freestyle Championships. i would say it might be one of the first slopestyle events ever, yet called aerials at the time. watch the first competitor at about 1 minute into the edit. there are 2 jump in the course. after the first jump he stops and drops his poles and then inverts with a 'mobius flip' on the second jump.

dont know how to embed anymore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3BPZrgAODg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3BPZrgAODg

Point of all this is that yes people have flipped 3 and 4 times on skis for years now with Frank Bare in early 80's and Nikki Stone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xigNtNDhXMs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xigNtNDhXMs

in the late 90's. shit... i have even filmed Matt Chojnacki trying 5 flips into a pool for a couple years since 2002

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TJ-69x-5Q

(so that will happen 1 days as well)

off axis is definitly a new trick, just like a leading mute grab in a rotating trick is a new trick from your other mute in the same rotation. everything is new, yet everything has been done before. life works in circles and so does freestyle skiing.

blah blah blah... its all skiing and all pretty fucking sick.

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2014 at 8:35:54am

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2014 at 8:37:30am
Jun 11 2014 6:11AM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24725 - Karma: 29,944
Okay, fine, but has anyone ever thrown a switch quad on an aerials jump?

Most tricks that guys are throwing today can be thrown either way. Sure, it's the same amount of flips and spins and whatever, but it's something bigger than reinvention - it's reimagination.



Imagine it upside down.. Aerials is basically like reverse olympic diving.

Today's freeskiing is like being shot out of a canon, backwards, and landing in a swimming pool that's 70 feet away.
Jun 11 2014 6:12AM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24725 - Karma: 29,944
^lol. Cannon*
Jun 11 2014 6:13AM
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Arty
Posts: 235 - Karma: 60
Triples and quads done freestyle skiing happened years ago.

Doubles and Triples in today's guise of freestyle in those participants perception happened in the past decade.

Off axis is all the same, when it happened in years bygone they would have called an off axis triple a triple with a break of form.

Nothing is new in our sport, just interpretation. Anyone who thinks newschool tricks are new is delusional!

Newschool is a movement, an evolution and progression of freestyle skiing because freestyle stopped being free when it was over regulated by rules.

The increased professionalism or better explained, seriousness and regimentation that is transitioning the competitive side of the sport is running the risk of freeskiing suffering the same fate as freestyle.

The only way progression of our sport will continue is maintaining it as free and ensuring the expression remains at the forefront than competition!
Jun 11 2014 7:32AM
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dbchili
Posts: 2555 - Karma: 1,657
shreddinthegnarrAerialists stick to back and front on-axis flips.


hahahahahhahaha when have you ever seen an aerielist do a front flip hahahahaha i can't stop laughing at the thought
Jun 11 2014 7:57AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
[hank]but let's not compare apples to genocide.


Sorry to be a stickler here, but you nullify your entire argument with this statement. The idea that you're calling two forms of skiing an apples to genocide comparison is totally false.

A hardcore backcountry mountaineer skier would just as easily make the argument that park skiing 'isn't real skiing and those guys can't ski'. Comparing aerials to park skiing is more like an oranges to lemon comparison.

Both are citrus, both have a similar type of citrousy taste - but they invoke completely different taste emotion.
I completely disagree that a corked spin is totally different than a straight over flip. It wasn't that long ago that I could do some of these tricks, and I've fucked around with a ton of them on water ramps in my years at camps. There's a different style sure... but you can't tell me that a double back full is so different from a dub cork that you might as well be comparing a double back full to genocide.

Now, as some others have pointed out - adding in the switch takeoff element is a game changer. Throw me a switch triple to talk about and then fuck yes you're re-inventing the wheel.

My main point is simply that I think its kind of silly that we glorify the 'first ever' type mentality around stuff that is simply being iterated on with tricks that have been done since the '80s.

More than ever before, we need a focus on style and what differentiates us. Dubbing has turned back into a 'form' play, where everyone is just hucking tucked in a tiny little crouched ball.

TL;DR - If we make skiing more of an art than a contest, then hell yes it is some progressive shit. And don't forget the switch.
Jun 11 2014 8:46AM
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Gypsy_Skier
Posts: 2666 - Karma: 5,237
Yeah who needs a helmet while hucking quads anyway? --'
Jun 11 2014 8:53AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
Mr.BishopSorry to be a stickler here, but you nullify your entire argument with this statement. The idea that you're calling two forms of skiing an apples to genocide comparison is totally false.

A hardcore backcountry mountaineer skier would just as easily make the argument that park skiing 'isn't real skiing and those guys can't ski'. Comparing aerials to park skiing is more like an oranges to lemon comparison.

Both are citrus, both have a similar type of citrousy taste - but they invoke completely different taste emotion.
I completely disagree that a corked spin is totally different than a straight over flip. It wasn't that long ago that I could do some of these tricks, and I've fucked around with a ton of them on water ramps in my years at camps. There's a different style sure... but you can't tell me that a double back full is so different from a dub cork that you might as well be comparing a double back full to genocide.

Now, as some others have pointed out - adding in the switch takeoff element is a game changer. Throw me a switch triple to talk about and then fuck yes you're re-inventing the wheel.

My main point is simply that I think its kind of silly that we glorify the 'first ever' type mentality around stuff that is simply being iterated on with tricks that have been done since the '80s.

More than ever before, we need a focus on style and what differentiates us. Dubbing has turned back into a 'form' play, where everyone is just hucking tucked in a tiny little crouched ball.

TL;DR - If we make skiing more of an art than a contest, then hell yes it is some progressive shit. And don't forget the switch.


Note I should probably replace dubbing with triples. Dubbing has done a better job of integrating styles, but as we go through triples and the inevitable quads its a huge huck and tuck play.
Jun 11 2014 8:56AM
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84891jnf92048
Posts: 11552 - Karma: 2,550
DarthVaderThis is a most interesting argument when it comes to tricks. Perhaps one of the most relevant questions in newschool skiing today. Are they different in value and if so why?


tricks done in aerials versus on park jumps are incredibly different, but really only if you get down to the mentality and ideas behind them. for me anyway, that makes all the difference. in aerials and traditional freestyle, the idea is to the do the trick as perfectly executed as possible, as close to the "ideal" and perfect rotation. in Freediders, the doors are open to put ones own twist on things. if you think about aerials, the flips and spins happen on two dimensions, flipping straight back and spinning on axis that only changes on that plane. double corks, rodeos, etc. all add a third dimension of side to side travel and flipping.

sorry for rambling, I just kind of let my stream of consciousness go...
Jun 11 2014 9:15AM
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ohboy
Posts: 1177 - Karma: 2,528
Nate.Dogon axis vs. off axis (a cork, rodeo, bio, are all way harder than a back full),


Arguable. To do a full with perfect form certainly isn't easy. I got rodeos pretty much first try and fulls I can barely get around.
Jun 11 2014 9:26AM
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Nate_Dawg
Posts: 54 - Karma: 106
.LeoArguable. To do a full with perfect form certainly isn't easy. I got rodeos pretty much first try and fulls I can barely get around.


exactly. Parker white gave TYW a letter at the VARS 2013 tourney just by doing a Front flip 180. They're different ways of getting upside down.
Jun 11 2014 9:49AM
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