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What Does Vail's Takeover in Park City Mean for Skiers?

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00000000
Posts: 11075 - Karma: 82,508
Can't seem to embed this in the news section, but definitely worth a read if you're interested in the topic.

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It's rare that the blanched, distended underbelly of the corporate ski industry gets exposed to the skiing public, but that's exactly what's been happening for the past three seasons in the mountains above Park City, Utah. If you don't read Bloomberg or own a major piece of Vail Resorts, you might not have been paying attention. Here's an easily digestible overview.

Unlike most big ski areas in North America, Park City Mountain Resort—the ski area whose runs flow directly into the town of Park City—operates almost entirely on private land. PCMR owns the land at the base. A company named Talisker Corporation owns much of the rest: the important stuff with the lifts, snowfall, and the inclines that make for fun with gravity.

Full article

**This thread was edited on May 29th 2014 at 12:57:32pm
May 29 2014 11:51AM
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mski
Posts: 4791 - Karma: 3,803
I'd be stoked to get a cheap pass and ski PC and Canyons again with the option of being able to ride in CO.

Not sure what to think of Vail operating PC. I wonder what they will change up since it seems inevitable they will do so.

As long as it doesn't effect BCC and LCC I'm cool with it
May 29 2014 12:33PM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 3,909
This is one of the better written articles on this entire situation.

The older Business week article was good, but that is dated now.

Anything from the Park Record or Denver Post on the other hand...ehh...
May 29 2014 12:58PM
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jakeordie
Posts: 664 - Karma: 3,277
http://youtu.be/xIiTL6uU_PU

I hope John Cumming stays true to his word, keeps lower PCMR builds a Woodward facility and turns the Powdr operated runs into Mecca for park skiing. As a publicly traded company, Vail has shown they're gonna win their game at any cost.....so Powdr as a privately owned company would be better off taking a different line in PC. Use the base to do what Vail can't, and show the skiing community what the difference really is.

Our community has become one of the world's premier ski destinations because each of our three resorts - PCMR, Canyons, and Deer Valley - offers a unique ski experience, and because we compete with each other for guests. A Vail takeover would diminish what we collectively offer to guests. They may boast of their domination of other communities but that flies in the face of what has made Park City so successful.


http://www.supportpcmr.com/pcmr-statements-on-court-ruling/
May 29 2014 1:38PM
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Ehh...
Posts: 1897 - Karma: 1,423
Welllll... I work and live in Park City for about a year now (so obviously not that much experience) but from what I have seen is a huge backlash from locals on the Canyons takeover from vail. They are cut all the perks to their employees who ahve been there for ages.


As far as the Park City takeover. It will be interesting to see how it plays out that PCMR owns the bottom half of the resort. I just hope that a good park remains and their isn't any bullshit from vail.
May 29 2014 2:19PM
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TLigare
Posts: 19 - Karma: 294
As someone who grew up in Park City - I can tell you the locals are really bummed about this. Although PCMR is definitely interested in turning in healthy profits at least they are privately owned and aren't forced to make decisions strictly on shareholder interests. It has always been it's own unique resort. Not some Disneyland shit marketed only to the mega rich. Vail resorts is essentially a real estate company (we literally studied them in Real Estate classes in college). For the town as a whole it would make sense to have the 3 different resorts competing against each other, to keep pricing down (Vail was charging $139 for a day ticket this year) and to provide unique experiences.
My parents and friends parents moved there in the 70's because it was a funky mining town that got a decent amount of snow. Within my lifetime the town has changed a lot but I'm certain that Vail has plans to change the face of it even further. The people of PC DON'T want that. If they wanted that they could move to Vail.
May 29 2014 3:17PM
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bigbromskier
Posts: 1175 - Karma: 330
the more important issue is if/what the changes will be with the powdr buyout at snowbird.

as stated in the article, canyons + pcmr is like making a massive sunday river in Utah. it's good marketing, but the terrain isn't anything to really brag about. it's a waste of time to try and traverse the whole combined resort to ski it all in one day.
the biggest concern is if pcmr's park will still be as amazing as it always is. vail has fantastic parks, but park city always had its own super fun character.
another note is that vail is arguably the best in the ski resort hospitality business so I'd think that's a good thing for the local economy/workforce.
May 29 2014 3:31PM
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boo10159
Posts: 270 - Karma: 137
What will become of the 12 year old saga kids who ride pc? Will they disappear with pcmr? If so, I'm okay with the takeover.
May 29 2014 3:44PM
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Miomo
Posts: 4302 - Karma: 14,133
TLigareFor the town as a whole it would make sense to have the 3 different resorts competing against each other, to keep pricing down (Vail was charging $139 for a day ticket this year) and to provide unique experiences.


Really good point. I wonder if Anti-trust law could ever come into play, though granted, I'm no lawyer.
May 29 2014 3:53PM
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busterburns
Posts: 485 - Karma: 539
I'm curious to see what other locals think about the whole thing, too. I feel like a ton of people ride (for) park city and the vibe and content from all of those athletes / filmers is on point.

inb4 everyone goes to Brighton
May 29 2014 4:37PM
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mski
Posts: 4791 - Karma: 3,803
"as stated in the article, canyons + pcmr is like making a massive sunday river in Utah."

Except the Canyons and PC are not really positioned to easily be accessed from one another, even with another set of lifts your going to be riding 2 to 4 lifts before you even ski. They might seem close enough together but the terrain they would have to deal with to connect the two is going to be so kooky.
May 29 2014 4:39PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
MiomoReally good point. I wonder if Anti-trust law could ever come into play, though granted, I'm no lawyer.


Anti-trust laws have been a joke in this country for years now.
May 29 2014 7:04PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,885
Probably means I won't be skiing at PCMR ever after Vail takes over. They tend to make places way too uppity and over charge out the ass. PCMR was pretty up scale and touristy as far as the average mountain goes, but they were the most chill out of all the place within PC...now it's just going to be another Deer Valley or Canyons.
May 29 2014 7:31PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5240 - Karma: 20,806
MiomoReally good point. I wonder if Anti-trust law could ever come into play, though granted, I'm no lawyer.


It happened in the early 90's, ASC bought killington and everything they owned, giving them like 75% of the major resorts in the NE. The government however forced them to sell Waterville, and Cranmore, I think?
May 29 2014 7:40PM
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SpookyCat
Posts: 1232 - Karma: -2,617
A few things need to be cleared up here and it seems almost everyone reporting on it or commenting on it are lacking...

This is not Vail taking over PCMR.

Talisker owns the land, Talisker is the one bringing PCMR to court... or vise-versa.

Vail is a separate entity from Talisker. The only connection those two have is that Vail is LEASING The Canyons from Talisker and Talisker has appointed Vail's corporate lawyers to oversee the lawsuit.

PCMR owns the land up to the top of Payday lift and across... roughly. PCMR has been planning for years (even before the lawsuit came into play) to create a Woodward at PCMR. The owner of PCMR is one of the original partners for Woodward.

The owner of PCMR along with Powdr Corp. have always despised Talisker. They were never going to sell the lower portion of PCMR.


This is the furthest thing from a Vail takeover. The only indication of a Vail takeover was if PCMR sold the base, then it was only rumored that Talisker might lease operations over to Vail.
May 29 2014 10:57PM
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Hoffman_
Posts: 153 - Karma: 277
InB4 everyone goes to Montana
May 30 2014 1:43AM
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perryhunter
Posts: 721 - Karma: -185
mskiI'd be stoked to get a cheap pass and ski PC and Canyons again with the option of being able to ride in CO.

Not sure what to think of Vail operating PC. I wonder what they will change up since it seems inevitable they will do so.

As long as it doesn't effect BCC and LCC I'm cool with it


Yeah! I'm thinking of a more broader slopes and terrain to ski in. Also a cheaper ski pass and more affordable hotels.
May 30 2014 5:13AM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
JenniferGarnerA few things need to be cleared up here and it seems almost everyone reporting on it or commenting on it are lacking...

This is not Vail taking over PCMR.

Talisker owns the land, Talisker is the one bringing PCMR to court... or vise-versa.

Vail is a separate entity from Talisker. The only connection those two have is that Vail is LEASING The Canyons from Talisker and Talisker has appointed Vail's corporate lawyers to oversee the lawsuit.

PCMR owns the land up to the top of Payday lift and across... roughly. PCMR has been planning for years (even before the lawsuit came into play) to create a Woodward at PCMR. The owner of PCMR is one of the original partners for Woodward.

The owner of PCMR along with Powdr Corp. have always despised Talisker. They were never going to sell the lower portion of PCMR.


This is the furthest thing from a Vail takeover. The only indication of a Vail takeover was if PCMR sold the base, then it was only rumored that Talisker might lease operations over to Vail.


I don't think you realize that Vail is overpaying for Canyons for a shot at PCMR or Snowbird. They are spending way more money for Canyons than they should be - but if they get a piece of PCMR (or almost all of it...) they make out like bandits.

What's interesting, and something that only a few are talking about, is the recent purchase/talks of purchasing Snowbird. Cumming could trade the Bird to keep PCMR or some shit.
May 30 2014 5:54AM
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SpookyCat
Posts: 1232 - Karma: -2,617
SchmaelzleI don't think you realize that Vail is overpaying for Canyons for a shot at PCMR or Snowbird. They are spending way more money for Canyons than they should be - but if they get a piece of PCMR (or almost all of it...) they make out like bandits.

What's interesting, and something that only a few are talking about, is the recent purchase/talks of purchasing Snowbird. Cumming could trade the Bird to keep PCMR or some shit.



Actually I do realize that but saying that the reason Vail is supposedly overpaying as leasees is because they'll be given reign over the land PCMR will lose is quite the stretch. It seems in this case, people are making a ton of baseless assumptions like that.

People aren't talking about the acquisition of Snowbird because it doesn't mean anything. The lawsuit has no connection to the purchase and it's again quite the stretch/assumption to think they did it as some sort of bargaining chip... People have quite the imagination.
May 30 2014 1:27PM
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Willard
Posts: 5117 - Karma: 429
ThePizzaManInB4 everyone goes to Montana


We any Park City has to offer...Go to Brighton and if you come to Montana stay in Brozeman.
May 30 2014 3:13PM
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S_Jenk
Posts: 345 - Karma: 92
I've read through the news and articles over this lawsuit, and I am finding it hard to side with PCMR on the issue of the land lease.

A very well written open letter from the head of Vail resorts can be found HERE. It gives a good insight into the legal aspect of this shit show.

To add a bit to JenniferGarner's comment; PCMR have absolutely shot themselves in the foot here. They lease the land from a private entity, and had until the March 1st date to renew their current lease. I honestly have no clue why they chose not to, especially since they went back to Talisker AFTER the deadline looking to secure a new lease.

Yeah, the new lease was probably much less favorable, but they set themselves up for it. Talisker had every incentive to find a new owner if PCMR wasn't going to pay rent, and its amazing he even let them continue operating for a year without them paying any rent. On a legal perspective, that's generous to the community as they were able to enjoy the awesome winter uninterrupted. That's not to mention the damage it would cause to businesses that rely on that access.

Vail may suck. In fact, it does suck. But I can't see how they could be blamed for PCMR's actions. They are a company regardless, and if they can't have the decency or professional approach to managing an essential issue like land/rent, then they don't deserve the park city community. Perhaps Vail will use this as an incentive to provide a better service to the people there, maybe.

Just my two cents.
Jun 17 2014 12:04AM
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caucasian_chad
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 3,625
ThePizzaManInB4 everyone goes to Montana


Sorry, we've reached 1 million residents. We're full.
Jun 17 2014 1:36AM
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Brule.
Posts: 3936 - Karma: 6,290
inb4 Brighton and Snowbird get a ton more customers.
Jun 17 2014 1:02PM
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KZA
Posts: 3304 - Karma: 301
S_JenkTo add a bit to JenniferGarner's comment; PCMR have absolutely shot themselves in the foot here. They lease the land from a private entity, and had until the March 1st date to renew their current lease. I honestly have no clue why they chose not to, especially since they went back to Talisker AFTER the deadline looking to secure a new lease.


From what I understand, the person who was responsible for renewing the lease was fired/laid off and the lease sat in their desk, unsigned, until after it had expired. Pay back is a bitch eh?
Jun 17 2014 2:17PM
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DubV134
Posts: 1541 - Karma: 690
http://fox13now.com/2014/06/19/judge-grants-eviction-of-park-city-mountain-resort/
Jun 22 2014 5:50PM
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Daph
Posts: 5978 - Karma: 5,010
ThePizzaManInB4 everyone goes to Montana


We have shitty jumps. for the love of god don't come here
Jun 22 2014 10:23PM
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suup
Posts: 1485 - Karma: 4,367
boo10159What will become of the 12 year old saga kids who ride pc? Will they disappear with pcmr? If so, I'm okay with the takeover.


Pretty sure vail will own them to...
Jun 23 2014 12:49AM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
Its already a pretty big destination resort..now it will just have nicer restaurants, hotels, etc. Vail is kind of a flat mountain for what you pay / surrounding area has to offer. But the lift lines are HORRIBLE. Went one day and wont go back again
Jun 23 2014 4:55PM
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freeballer
Posts: 726 - Karma: 960
I'm not sure why everyone thinks things will change drastically. Look at the different resorts that Vail owns: Vail, Beaver Creek, Keystone, Breckenridge, Kirkwood, Heavenly, Canyons, Northstar, Afton Alps, and Mt Brighton. Sure, Vail Resort in Vail, Colorado is super expensive, full of furs and expensive. However, I don't see the similarities of the other resorts, because the resort area is not only the resort, but the town that has been there as long as the ski resort. Breck is funky. Keystone is for families but has a ridiculous park, Kirkwood is still the same out of the way place it's always been, Heavenly is still Heavenly. So, as a local, would you rather have your ski hill run by someone who can't even bother to renew a lease, or have it run by a highly successful company that has the resources to update the lifts, and offer a much cheaper season pass that is accepted by something like 20 resorts worldwide? Come on. Most resorts dream of Vail coming in and purchasing them because they know what the fuck they are doing. Also, for anyone complaining about expensive, 1-day lift tickets, who cares? People coming into our nice, quiet ski towns should pay more, because it's fucking awesome. You should be worried more about season pass prices. Vail comes in = cheaper season pass for true locals and ski enthusiasts. Vail comes in = better lift systems. Vail comes in = retards that can't run a business go away.

By the way. I've lived in Vail for 10 years. It's not that expensive and the feel of the valley is due to the old school 10th mountain division badass muthafuckas that created this place, not the publicly traded resort company named Vail Resorts that happens to run the actual ski resort.
Jun 23 2014 7:05PM
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ModMommy
Posts: 10831 - Karma: 57,376
WillardWe any Park City has to offer...Go to Brighton and if you come to Montana stay in Brozeman.


Bozeman is full. Sorry.

I've been thru the transition to a Vail resort, seeing as I've skied Northstar for over seven years. At first it's not so bad. There's not a lot of changes, but once they start to hit, you notice it. It's no longer the resort you love. Best of luck to PCMR skiers.
Jun 23 2014 10:01PM
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Olimar
Posts: 3537 - Karma: 4,077
Kinda disappointing. Ill be making my way To PCMR for the first time ever this winter. Really hoping it doesnt change much at all from what it previously was.
Jun 27 2014 9:10PM
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.Rybak.
Posts: 9017 - Karma: 9,864
immasBozeman is full. Sorry.

I've been thru the transition to a Vail resort, seeing as I've skied Northstar for over seven years. At first it's not so bad. There's not a lot of changes, but once they start to hit, you notice it. It's no longer the resort you love. Best of luck to PCMR skiers.


Is there room for me bb?
Jun 28 2014 12:59PM
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goat00
Posts: 240 - Karma: 528
vail took over kirkwood, and shit is still the same out there.
Jun 29 2014 11:41AM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
boo10159What will become of the 12 year old saga kids who ride pc? Will they disappear with pcmr? If so, I'm okay with the takeover.


Theres my problem, they're all gonna end up at brighton, so fuck the takeover
Jun 29 2014 11:56AM
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toastyteenagers
Posts: 1834 - Karma: 6,793
Here's a condensed version:

park city operates on talkskier(fuck them) land. when their lease expired, talisker denied renewing it, as it was looking for a new tenant.

so technically taliskier sold the land of the base area of PCMR to vail.


So what does this mean to us?

nothing... For now.

no major changes will happen because a massive lawsuit is going on and most likely what will happen is that park city will pay a 100+mil fine and get they land back.

Dont worry. I was scared too.
Jun 30 2014 12:52AM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
i must be missing something here. without the base, talisker can't do jack shit or they would have to build around the small part that powdr does still own
Jun 30 2014 1:09AM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/783075/Court-rules-in-Favor-of-Vail-Talisker-over-PCMR-?page=2

L2Searchbar, dude.



In all seriousness though, I'm really surprised this all unfolded as it did.
Jun 30 2014 1:31AM
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SpookyCat
Posts: 1232 - Karma: -2,617
RailersailerHere's a condensed version:

park city operates on talkskier(fuck them) land. when their lease expired, talisker denied renewing it, as it was looking for a new tenant.

so technically taliskier sold the land of the base area of PCMR to vail.


So what does this mean to us?

nothing... For now.

no major changes will happen because a massive lawsuit is going on and most likely what will happen is that park city will pay a 100+mil fine and get they land back.

Dont worry. I was scared too.



You're scared because you're an idiot. Talisker did not deny them to renew the lease, PCMR screwed up by not re-signing the lease within the allotted time. Powdr owns the base area, not Talisker. As a heads up, if you own land, someone else cannot sell it for you. Basics, boy... basics.
Jun 30 2014 9:18AM
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joe_dirt
Posts: 372 - Karma: 2,405
vail is plain evil thats all she wrote.
Jun 30 2014 10:35AM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
joe_dirtvail is plain evil thats all she wrote.


Honestly Vail is not as bad as everyone makes them out to be, just saying. They have done good things for Northstar and Heavenly.
Jul 1 2014 1:29AM
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yung-lean
Posts: 511 - Karma: 2,447
This will leave Saga crew, Hood crew, 4bi9 Crew, Evan heath, Steve Stepp mountainless. For a small $5 you can move these mountainless Freeskier to Colorado.
Jul 28 2014 4:10PM
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Dolan.Escobar
Posts: 683 - Karma: 943
Breck...
Jul 28 2014 6:09PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,885
JibbinJacksonThis will leave Saga crew, Hood crew, 4bi9 Crew, Evan heath, Steve Stepp mountainless. For a small $5 you can move these mountainless Freeskier to Colorado.


That's pretty much all the same crew....
Jul 28 2014 6:29PM
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jensen
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 1,267
JenniferGarnerA few things need to be cleared up here and it seems almost everyone reporting on it or commenting on it are lacking...

This is not Vail taking over PCMR.

Talisker owns the land, Talisker is the one bringing PCMR to court... or vise-versa.

Vail is a separate entity from Talisker. The only connection those two have is that Vail is LEASING The Canyons from Talisker and Talisker has appointed Vail's corporate lawyers to oversee the lawsuit.

PCMR owns the land up to the top of Payday lift and across... roughly. PCMR has been planning for years (even before the lawsuit came into play) to create a Woodward at PCMR. The owner of PCMR is one of the original partners for Woodward.

The owner of PCMR along with Powdr Corp. have always despised Talisker. They were never going to sell the lower portion of PCMR.


This is the furthest thing from a Vail takeover. The only indication of a Vail takeover was if PCMR sold the base, then it was only rumored that Talisker might lease operations over to Vail.


Did you actually open and read the article? How is it not clear who all of the parties are?

Vail IS absolutely trying to take over PCMR. In order to do that they have to lease the Taliskier land. PCMR royally screwed up and did not renew their lease. NOW Taliskier can renegotiate the terms of the lease with WHOEVER they want. PCMR lost the sweet deal that they had. Taliskier can start a bidding war with PCMR and Vail. Who do you think has deeper pockets to win that war? Why would Vail want to do that? Think about trying to operate Canyons with a sweet resort like PCMR right next door... how do you think Canyons would do without PCMR next door? A hell of a lot better. I said it in the other thread and I will say it again in this one, PCMR is screwed. Their options, just as this article states, are to either sell the base area to Vail OR to dismantle the chairs and deny Vail access to the base area. If they keep the base areas maybe they can rebrand to a Woodward type of resort but PCMR (as the current company) can say goodbye to using the Taliskier land.
Jul 28 2014 6:36PM
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