Minimum wage for fast food.

cool_namejust because minimum wage was x relative to some standard in the past doesnt mean that is right or correct.

No, again, where the "right or correct" level is depends on whom you ask.

cool_namewhat are you possibly basing that statement on, what proof do you have that you would earn more?

So you're saying that people on the lower end of the wage scale in BC Canada where the minimum wage is $10.25 don't make more than people who live in California where the MW is $8/hour?

Canada just passed the US in median incomes for a reason. Your friends have probably also never had to worry about randomly having a $2k hospital bill to pay.

So wait, you post a MADE UP SCENARIO that you pulled out of your ass, I post ACTUAL RESEARCH by economists showing that raising the MW has essentially no discernible effect on employment levels, I post a meta study which has a graph to show that the largest and best designed studies show the effect closest to zero, I explain the economic frame work which explains this empirical fact about reality explaining things like aggregate demand, diminishing marginal utility of money, and that wages come from profits and raises to productivity that have already occurred, and there's no way for me to win?

Ok, I guess I'll just have to admit that I've been blind sighted by your spectacular knowledge of macro economic systems.

I literally linked you to a paper called "Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?" and you insisted that I didn't link you to where I explained why you were wrong.

LIL_WATObviously, because people are willing to work at those lower wages. Why should we FORCE employers to pay someone $20 when reasonable workers are willing to take $10?

Because of the existence of this thing called a monopsony, which when it exists in an unorganized labour market creates a race to the bottom for wages. Everyone wants the competitive advantage so they work for just a little less than the next guy and eventually what happens is everyone's wages are really low and they don't ever go up. It's a fallacy of composition. The same reason that it's good for ME to act selfishly because it gives me a competitive advantage over everyone else, but if everyone acts selfishly all the time you get a society full of assholes that doesn't function. Raising the MW applies to everyone, so competitive advantage isn't affected.

Here, this explains it some

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/the_minimum_wag_2.html

AT-ATI'm sure "migrant" workers will love an increase in the minimum wage. I know if i owned a business i'd hire one of them over an overpaid "legal" worker.

Right, and I mean people break the law against driving drunk too, that doesn't mean we should get rid of it or that it doesn't work.

Bill.NyeNo, again, where the "right or correct" level is depends on whom you ask.

You keep agreeing with me that their is no definite right or correct minimum wage, but then you keep using historical values to justify what the wage ought to be, when as we both agreed their is no proof those were correct or right values

Bill.NyeSo you're saying that people on the lower end of the wage scale in BC Canada where the minimum wage is $10.25 don't make more than people who live in California where the MW is $8/hour?

Canada just passed the US in median incomes for a reason. Your friends have probably also never had to worry about randomly having a $2k hospital bill to pay.

No, I am saying just because you make x amount above minimum wage their doesn't guarantee that you will be able to make x amount above the minimum wage here

You understand the difference between median and mean right, because the actually values only matter in regards to wether they are above or below the middle value, wether it be by 1 or 10000000 doesn't matter.

No, I haven't, I do have to worry about paying for it in my taxes though. Again though I don't see the relevance of where I live in regards to the strength of my argument

Bill.NyeSo wait, you post a MADE UP SCENARIO that you pulled out of your ass, I post ACTUAL RESEARCH by economists showing that raising the MW has essentially no discernible effect on employment levels, I post a meta study which has a graph to show that the largest and best designed studies show the effect closest to zero, I explain the economic frame work which explains this empirical fact about reality explaining things like aggregate demand, diminishing marginal utility of money, and that wages come from profits and raises to productivity that have already occurred, and there's no way for me to win?

Ok, I guess I'll just have to admit that I've been blind sighted by your spectacular knowledge of macro economic systems.

I literally linked you to a paper called "Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?" and you insisted that I didn't link you to where I explained why you were wrong.

Huh that's weird I didn't realize Milton Friedman's ideas came out of my ass and weren't supported by economists. Also I am not impressed or swayed by some study you found on google scholar, because there are just as many talking about the effects of it. Not to mention that paper is talking about the past effects of raising minimum wage and just about every single minimum wage raise in the past has simply been keeping it relatively constant in real terms, so it makes sense that their wouldn't be a large change in unemployment and this fact would be constant with the large majority of the studies displayed on that graph.

Now this is where I will point just because it has been stated doesn't make it true

I will explain why it is wrong later I have to go to class and if you notice are previous back and forth was more about the income distribution and equality rather than me pointing it the numerous flaws with explanation of employment will increase/stay the same

Btw I would still like to hear you explain why my rational for it being unfair to the poor is wrong, not some linked paper you found on google that doesn't directly address it

Disclaimer in mobile

cool_nameYou keep agreeing with me that their is no definite right or correct minimum wage, but then you keep using historical values to justify what the wage ought to be, when as we both agreed their is no proof those were correct or right values

Well I could try to convince you of a correct place for a minimum wage by doing an elasticity analysis of the the labour market with an understanding of monopsony labour buyer conditions, but seeing as you've got this pseudo-religious view that any minimum wage is always bad I thought that probably wouldn't interest you, so instead I just showed you a historical comparison to show that MW isn't even that high right now.

Like I told you, I'm very bored and reverting to what's easy.

cool_nameI am not impressed or swayed by some study you found on google scholar, because there are just as many talking about the effects of it. Not to mention that paper is talking about the past effects of raising minimum wage and just about every single minimum wage raise in the past has simply been keeping it relatively constant in real terms

JUST LIKE THE PROPOSED ONE WOULD.

PS what I cited was a META study, in other words a study of the studies to determine what the net findings of all these cumulative studies are, not just a single study which could easily be flawed.

Bill.NyeJUST LIKE THE PROPOSED ONE WOULD.

PS what I cited was a META study, in other words a study of the studies to determine what the net findings of all these cumulative studies are, not just a single study which could easily be flawed.

no not all because the proposed one is far greater than any real mw in the past 80 years.

ps maybe note the part of my post that says "constant with the large majority of the studies displayed on that graph" so yes i know it was more than one study, but they all are working with the same data.

Bill.NyeWell I could try to convince you of a correct place for a minimum wage by doing an elasticity analysis of the the labour market with an understanding of monopsony labour buyer conditions, but seeing as you've got this pseudo-religious view that any minimum wage is always bad I thought that probably wouldn't interest you, so instead I just showed you a historical comparison to show that MW isn't even that high right now.

Like I told you, I'm very bored and reverting to what's easy.

high is a relative term, so with out a proper comparison it really means nothing. Maybe you should go through and acctually fi

fuck, acctually find what a proper minimum wage would be before you say this wage proposed wage is better

Bill.NyeDoesn't work like that. Prices are determined by supply and demand, not working backwards from a predestined profit margin. If they could charge more now, they would while still keeping wages low.

What will happen is that poor people will spend more money because they'll have more money (some of it at McDonald's), and to capitalize on that firms will hire more people. Firms which can't hire more people will only then increase prices to equalize supply and demand, so prices on some items will go up, but the people who got the raises will come out ahead because wage increases come first and foremost out of profits.

yes, if they could change more now, they would, but that doesn't mean they couldn't charge more after the minimum wage increases. How do you also know it wouldn't be more profitable to raise prices instead of hiring more labour, especially when their mc has dramatically increased do to the higher wage restriction.

Bill.NyeI'm assuming that they will increase hiring before prices because that is what would be most profitable. Remember, if they COULD increase prices now, they would do so anyway, regardless of what wages are being paid. If demand starts to go up because of a MW increase (which hopefully it does) then McD's could either raise prices or hire more people, but with a large pool of unemployed it will be more profitable for them to hire people (or possibly use new technology to increase the efficiency of their business model, which would also be good).

again why would hiring before labour be more profitable, how do you know it wouldn't be more profitable to increase price and decrease labour

the amount of unemployed will not drive down the cost of labour with just about any mw because the employer is forced to pay the minimum wage, so the only way the quantity of unemployed could influence the price and profitably of them hiring it is in an upwards direction which i doubt you are implying

.Hugo.What's outrageous is your first sentence

agreed... can't tell if this is a troll

SnowSafetyagreed... can't tell if this is a troll

It wasn't. But then I stopped carong. This thread sucks. /Thread.