Netherlands Closing 19 Prisons Due to Lack of Criminals

First of all, this IS about a lack of criminals (logical process: lack of criminals -> empty prisons -> no need to keep prisons running, therefore budget cuts). So, like I said in the op, this is a fantastic demonstration of what a civilized, rational nation can accomplish, and since the point of this thread is obviously still escaping some of you, I'll spell it out (I didn't originally intend to make this a who's better than who thread, but I need a reference point, and, for obvious reasons, that's you America): if you want your civilized, western nation to have similar results, then, in my opinion, there needs to be a massive re-evaluation on what punishment fits what crime (excluding, obviously, psychopathic crimes like murder and rape and just really disturbing violence - the people who premeditatively commit those crimes are most of the time, as we know, not rehabilitatable), and most importantly not basing the punishments on humiliation and revenge on the inmate like the old-testament style penal code America has.

People very often tend to dehumanize criminals, thinking of them as external to society. Regardless of the severity of the crime, criminals still need to be treated with dignity, as human beings, because the majority of the time they're going to be released back into society. Is regression/a perpetuation of that felonious behaviour really that surprising when former convicts now essentially hold no rights, no skills, no freedom, with a permanent stain on their lives and records, and who are almost certainly going to be living below the poverty line working a minimum wage job? Fuck no. Additionally, if these usually young, educationally sub-normal inmates are just moseying around with other criminals for however long they're incarcerated, it's common sense that they're going to be allured back into criminal activities once they get out. No, fuck all that. Put them in uniforms (like they already are), let themselves and others know they are wrongdoers (which I don't think is unduly humiliating), then get them to do productive and purposeful work. Teach them things. Again, treat them like human beings who are still an essential tooth on the cog that is society, otherwise, what the fuck do you expect when they just go back into the same old shit?

Moral of the story: there are other ways to punish people aside from this outdated, eye for an eye barbarism that is still practised in...certain countries; this recent piece of news being a case in point. Quite obviously there are other major determinants in creating and advancing a society which is morally and socially up to standard in this respect, but I feel the general attitude towards wrongdoers is what should be tackled with the most attention.

louie.miragsIt is the pretentiousness of the OP and some of Europeans on this site. Saying "what a civilized nation that rationally approaches social problem can accomplish". That is a stab at other countries (example USA). Maybe I'm being vain, but who else what that aimed at? And OP may know jack shit about America and his opinion is based on bias media outlets. Saying America isn't "civilized"? Lame attempt... see what I mean?

Oscar Wilde: "America went from barbarism to decadence, but forgot civilization in between"

lol if you put gang affiliated US prisoners in that scandinavian hotel, there wouldn't be any more live scandiavians in there in a few days

I guess you don't really need prisons when you have Sharia law.

MagWhat categorization would you give to the superior(~) European countries - Scandinavia, Netherlands and Switzerland?

The axis of awesome.

Luxembourg can join as well, as do Monaco and Lichtenstein, I'm ambivalent towards the Belgians but Germany is too large and they prefer to play by themselves anyway.

Well they dont really have a war on drugs over there so..

The US has way more people, way more criminals, and way fewer dollars per person to spend on prisons (actually negative dollars if you consider that thing called debt). This obviously leads to a poor system that can be corrupt, counterproductive, and violent.

It's simply so enormous and diverse that models from a tiny country like Holland don't fit. I feel like the federal government of the US really drains success from all 50 states. You can't find social solutions for Wisconsin that will work the same way for Hawaii, but that's exactly what we try to do. Maybe if we could empower states and form a sort of EU-esque system like it was way back in the day we'd be more successful, but that's certainly a debate that's not new.

las.No, it doesn't. Why can the same standard not be applied equally across the board?

zzzskizzzBecause someone who smokes weed and someone who gets into a fight at a bar, and someone who kills 10 people are very different dangers to society.

Nope, pot smokers are the lowest of society. Damn degenerates getting high and eating all their damn snacks bothering us hard working citizens.

mmccarthy14Nope, pot smokers are the lowest of society. Damn degenerates getting high and eating all their damn snacks bothering us hard working citizens.

L0L!!!! FUCKING HILARIOUS!

omnidataThe axis of awesome.

Luxembourg can join as well, as do Monaco and Lichtenstein, I'm ambivalent towards the Belgians but Germany is too large and they prefer to play by themselves anyway.

We should marry

omnidataI'm ambivalent towards the Belgians

I've always been a big fan of the country and, from what I recall, its people. Wouldn't categorize it as "superior" though.

As for Germany, well it's not even in the same league, not to belittle Germany but I'm just talking about a completely different thing.

A major problem in the US is private prisons. Added incentive to punish people in certain areas. No criminals? Those prisons go out of business. Correction officer unions do plenty to make sure they meet their quota to keep prisons open. Police agencies being able to seize assets and keep all drug money is incentive to bust people with drugs. Whether they're are big time dealers or not. Shit is way more fucked then what's on the surface. It's great the country OP is referring to has reduced their crime. Going to take years in America to restructure what we have going on. Not to mention $$$$$. And whose willing to to pay for it???

las.No, it doesn't. Why can the same standard not be applied equally across the board?

Looks like we've got a communist. Better call the HUAC and Mr.McCarthy

louie.miragsA major problem in the US is private prisons. Added incentive to punish people in certain areas. No criminals? Those prisons go out of business. Correction officer unions do plenty to make sure they meet their quota to keep prisons open. Police agencies being able to seize assets and keep all drug money is incentive to bust people with drugs. Whether they're are big time dealers or not. Shit is way more fucked then what's on the surface. It's great the country OP is referring to has reduced their crime. Going to take years in America to restructure what we have going on. Not to mention $$$$$. And whose willing to to pay for it???

This. There is such a huge industry in america of imprisoning people. These people involved in the industry dont want to lose their jobs, no matter how fucking immoral their jobs are, and many of them are very influential on politics. People who own prisons are getting rich as fuck, and they dont want anything to change. The average iq in america is only 98, which is basically borderline retarded. This is why so many people in america support the imprisonment of people, even for nonviolent drug offenses. To the average retarded american, society is a scary scary place to them because they dont have the intellectual ability to understand why people would want to use or sell drugs. To them its the unknown... Its just scary to them. So they support people like bill oreilly who push forward the attitude that there is a crisis in america that must be stopped by imprisoning millions of nonviolent people.

^yes because those who profit from the sale and distribution of drugs are always very non-violent.

The only way to improve society is through hard work.

I am so pro slavery it's ridiculous. The 13th Amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
An increasing number of prisons in the U.S. are run by corporations, using their prisoners as workers and selling their labor to corporations. Federal safety and health standards do not protect prison labor, nor do the National Labor Relations Board policies. The corporations do not even have to pay minimum wage.

"J.C. Penney, Victoria's Secret, IBM, Toys R Us and TWA are among the US corporations that have profited by employing prisoners. Put together long mandatory sentences for minor drug offences, a strong racial bias, prisons run by corporations for profit, the sale of convict labor to corporations, and a charge for prison room and board and you have a modern system of bonded labor - a social condition otherwise known as slavery."

zzzskizzzI am so pro slavery it's ridiculous. The 13th Amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
An increasing number of prisons in the U.S. are run by corporations, using their prisoners as workers and selling their labor to corporations. Federal safety and health standards do not protect prison labor, nor do the National Labor Relations Board policies. The corporations do not even have to pay minimum wage.

"J.C. Penney, Victoria's Secret, IBM, Toys R Us and TWA are among the US corporations that have profited by employing prisoners. Put together long mandatory sentences for minor drug offences, a strong racial bias, prisons run by corporations for profit, the sale of convict labor to corporations, and a charge for prison room and board and you have a modern system of bonded labor - a social condition otherwise known as slavery."

I'm not sure if you're just quoting another source, or you actually think we should put prisoners to work??
We already have a problem with private prisons making $$$$ of each prisoner and correction officer unions making sure there are enough prisoners still to keep their jobs. The last thing we need is to have every prisoner in this country generating a buck. That is added incentive to lock people up. Innocent or not. Fuck it. They make money and fit the criminal description! Lock em up and yell git r dun

That's because the Dutch haven't made putting people behind bars a profitable business plain and simple.

louie.miragsI'm not sure if you're just quoting another source, or you actually think we should put prisoners to work??
We already have a problem with private prisons making $$$$ of each prisoner and correction officer unions making sure there are enough prisoners still to keep their jobs. The last thing we need is to have every prisoner in this country generating a buck. That is added incentive to lock people up. Innocent or not. Fuck it. They make money and fit the criminal description! Lock em up and yell git r dun

Hey dumbass that's already happening, they make military uniforms as well uniforms for Applebee's, McDonald's, and license plates, and they get .15 an hour doing it

zzzskizzzHey dumbass that's already happening, they make military uniforms as well uniforms for Applebee's, McDonald's, and license plates, and they get .15 an hour doing it

woah woah woah, fellow NSer.. i was not disagreeing with you. Actually I was asking what you meant and expressing why I thought slave labor was bad. Relax mang...

maximiliaanWe should marry

Best of all in our liberal fun loving socialist state we actually can!

We should renact the Titanic "I'm the king of the World!" scene at the next canal pride.

louie.miragswoah woah woah, fellow NSer.. i was not disagreeing with you. Actually I was asking what you meant and expressing why I thought slave labor was bad. Relax mang...

I apologize I was up all last night studying for three tests but I just finished I guess I missed read what you wrote. Love youuuu

omnidataBest of all in our liberal fun loving socialist state we actually can!

We should renact the Titanic "I'm the king of the World!" scene at the next canal pride.

My brother just bought a boat in Amsterdam, so yeah! Why not? The only thing is: whos gonna play Leo?

The referenced post has been removed.

If you're going to be ignorant, it needs to be funny

/Banhammer

**This post was edited on Apr 29th 2014 at 1:31:54pm

maximiliaanMy brother just bought a boat in Amsterdam, so yeah! Why not? The only thing is: whos gonna play Leo?

Whichever one of us who hasn't won an oscar yet.

weed's doin its shiiit