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Question about Downhill — Men vs. Women

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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
I noticed that there in Sochi, women are clearly skiing a modified, shortened version of the downhill course. Also, at the worldcup event, I think the women were skiing a different course (Maybe Raptor or something?) than the men (Birds of Prey).

Is this always the case that the women ski a different downhill course? I wasn't sure if that were the case, or if it was because this is Super Combined as opposed to true downhill. I'm new to really paying attention to alpine racing, but I think it's fucking rad.

On this point, what are your guys thoughts on this? Specifically to the gals that race or did race, how do you feel about a less "challenging" course? This topic just sort of reminded me of the talk of different jumps for men and women in slope....I'm surprised this never got brought into the argument.


Feb 10 2014 10:49PM
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will_powder
Posts: 3194 - Karma: 5,445
The course is always modified or completely different between men and women.

The closest course to being the exact same is Lake Louise, where the women's course is only a few gates shorter. That's why Lindsay Vonn chose that event to try and race with the men (which wasn't allowed in the end).

Feb 10 2014 10:57PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4774 - Karma: 10,005
I really don't know, but I suspect the Super Combined DH course is different than the actual DH course.
Feb 10 2014 10:59PM
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jsnow
Posts: 864 - Karma: 6,920
If women tried to ski the mens downhill course their knees would explode.
Feb 10 2014 11:01PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
Yeah, courses are always different
Feb 10 2014 11:11PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
And, what's the sort of consensus about that? Just been the case for so long that it's just accepted across the board?

Are there women who push to ski the same course? I remember some talk about Vonn wanting to compete against the men.

I also just read that the practice of injecting women's courses (pause...) is really new and that not everyone likes it.

Is it pretty much just common knowledge that women are.....incapable?....of skiing the same course?
Feb 10 2014 11:19PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
Not going to pretend I'm enough of an insider on racing to give a good answer to those questions. Like you said, Vonn was trying to ski downhill with the men, so obvious there are some girls who want the courses to be the same.

As far as I know it's one of those things where some of the women don't really mind that the courses are different, and some do, but, like I said, I don't know for sure.
Feb 10 2014 11:26PM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
Have you ski raced? Men and women ski more or less the same slalom, GS and super G courses. In fact there are lots of instances were they train together or on the same course.

Up to the Nor-AM level men and women race the same DH course as well. I've raced the lake louise Nor-AM DH (more or less same course as the WC a week after the fact) and its the men's course minus the top few gates.

God, hasn't this subject been done to death already? Those top female ski racers legs would still annihilate 90% of the guys on this forum, just saying.
Feb 10 2014 11:31PM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
On another note - I also raced Ski Cross and the WC SX courses are the same for both Men and Women. In fact often times the top female seeding time chicks 1/2 to 3/4 of the men's field on the identical course.
Feb 10 2014 11:32PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
This argument isn't valid. Top female ski racers would annihilate 99% of all skiers everywhere. Same with top female slopestyle/halfpipe athletes.... really lets be honest most of us can't get to the lip of that fucking 22' pipe let alone trick out of it.

The problem is the way this is discussed. Obviously there are differences between men and women's bodies, you can see that in almost every sport in the universe. So men making fun of women for their performance is stupid. Lets just stop doing that.

What is interesting is hearing a level opinion on women's courses and whether or not they should be hitting different stuff. I've heard compelling arguments in both directions -

"Yes, the girls can hit anything the guys can."

"No, the girls should have a course built for them, so they can truly excel on features built for them."

I think that is an interesting discussion to have.

Feb 10 2014 11:39PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Yes, Combined DH is shorter than normal downhill.
Feb 10 2014 11:39PM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
There are already like 50 threads about this, at least 5 of which are on the first two pages of ski gabber. There is no need to have another page about this. Redundant and done to death. Does nobody use the search function on this site? Or use google?
Feb 10 2014 11:42PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
Why don't you take a deep breath, calm yourself, and realize that, like I said already, I am a total newb to ski racing. If I race(d), I'd probably know the answer to the questions I asked, don't you think? If you could've somehow not gotten so defensive, and just sort of provided the info that you did, that's would've been fantastic.

I don't know why you took this as an attack, personal or otherwise, but no, this topic hasn't been mentioned once....to my knowledge, there's next to zero discussion of racing here other than "lol, racers suck".

Do you think.... that I think....that I can compete athletically with top flight women ski racers? (Spolier ALERT: I can't!). Judging by your tender, swollen reaction, I'll assume you think that women can't and shouldn't race on the same course and the subtext is that you don't like it being asked about.

just saying.

(cuz like it's sassy and I can sort of disassociate and not take responsibility for what I just said and it's like metaphorically followed by me standing up from the table, smirking, and walking out the room)
Feb 10 2014 11:43PM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
Because almost anything posted on this website to do with female skiers has to do with them being inferior and incapable. It's annoying as hell to read, and honestly it's really not helping park skiing progress or encouraging more girls to get out there and give it a go.

Maybe try using google, or the search function instead of clogging up the website with another men vs. women thread?

Feb 10 2014 11:46PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
Through the first two pages, there is not a single thread inquiring or discussing the differences between men and women's downhill courses and whether it's an essential thing or not....so what are you talking about? The Olympics in general? If you don't want that discussion, I don't know maybe a solid play to avoid a SKI website this time of year, huh?

Also, I searched "Olympic" and "Downhill"........there was nothing at all relevant, almost posted in "Men's Downhill" but that was really specifically about the event as it happened. So, any other off target criticisms or do you want to be a grownup and just not play if you don't like the game?

The fact that you're so enraged about this discussion says two things:

1.) you just should plain avoid the discussion, duh.
2.) that you assume that this topic being raised is somehow an indictment or an attack on not only women and women's skiing, but on you personally. Which, is just flat out untrue and false.

Seriously though, I think it's a worthwhile discussion, I'm keen to learn more about racing, if you've nothing to contribute except blind, aimless rage, just beat it geek.
Feb 10 2014 11:49PM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
To answer this further in simple language since previous message was deemed an attack (and yes, I find it insulting you think it's common knowledge that women are incapable of skiing the same course, it couldn't be further from the truth)

1) Women have been skiing water injected DH courses for eons. Every single DH course I raced was water injected.

2) Women do and can ski the same courses as men in most disciplines, (even in DH up to the Nor-Am/Europa cup level). They are 100% fully capable, traditionally on the WC level there are different stops as they are on separate schedules/tours. They don't necessarily line up (although Lake Louise is back to back)


Feb 10 2014 11:51PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
You're seriously a joke, and an angry, angry person.

Why don't you try and not click on threads that you decide you don't like or are "redundant"? I think the title gave a pretty good indication of what this thread was about.

I didn't use google (well I did, that's where I read about what the fuck injection is and that it is a brand new (couple years) practice for women's races.

I posted it here because I always post here, and because 99% of the time people have great input and insight because they live it or have lived it. It's not my fault how "almost anything posted" here is an attack on women. I certainly wasn't doing that.

So, thanks for doing exactly what you claim to crusade against and turning this thread into a fucking shitshow argument for no reason.
Feb 10 2014 11:53PM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
Maybe if every thread about women's skiing wasn't a comparison to men's skiing and how inferior it was? (Or in your own works, how incapable women are, and how it's common knowledge). It's rare to find a thread that actually talks about the female competitors in the same light that the male athletes are discussed. Mostly these threads degrade to how much better the posters are than the female athletes and how lame they think it is that an ungrabbed 7 will probably win.


I suggest if you are making an honest query, not to use loaded terms like "common knowledge women are incapable". Loaded question = loaded answer.
Feb 10 2014 11:55PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
That's not what I meant, nor was it my point, dumb dumb!!! I was genuinely asking people who know what the general idea was about the fact that men and women ski different courses!!!!

That's why I used the question mark and the "....", because I don't see it that way, and I'm trying to wrap my head around how men and women in the sport view it. Like, there are certain things, rules, regulations, separations in sports, life, society, whatever that have been around since seemingly the dawn of time that don't really get questioned or scrutinized that people just sort of accept. I was asking whether this is something that gets debated or challenged by the competitors themselves.

You've completely misunderstood, this wasn't an attack, and you're over the top sensitive about this topic and frankly at this point you're contributing nothing of value and just looking for justifications to be offended. Just fuck off.
Feb 10 2014 11:56PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
You're seriously, seriously dense, and I'm sorry that that's you're day to day reality.

Maybe English isn't your first language.

And, no you're mistaken about women's courses always being injected. http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/skiing/news/story?id=4805870 Last two sentences.

Eons, huh? Sweet.
Feb 11 2014 12:00AM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
Actually I answered both your questions my first post, but evidently reading isn't your strong suit. Were you really looking for answers? Or looking for the answer you wanted?

"Dumb dumb", man what is this, 5th grade?
Feb 11 2014 12:02AM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
Oh I'm sorry... I must have been wrong all those years of racing on water injected courses, my bad. I'm sure associated press knows whats up, and it's not like the subject was taken completely out of context in that article.

I am totally mistaken, and my memory is completely wrong. You're the expert and you answered your own question, why did you even have to ask? ;)


PS - I was racing 12 years ago on women's water injected courses. It was common practice before that.

Feb 11 2014 12:06AM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
You're a fucking nutcase.
Feb 11 2014 12:09AM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
I'm sorry, please, since your powers of inference are so finely tuned, what answer was I looking for?

What do you call someone who literally invents an argument just because they clearly have a lot of pent up rage and misdirected hostility? You've created a needless and juvenile argument, constructed almost entirely of straw men, how "these threads usually go", and you're own stuff. Dumb dumb felt totally appropriate, and still does. Sick snap though!
Feb 11 2014 12:11AM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
"I didn't use google (well I did, that's where I read about what the fuck injection is and that it is a brand new (couple years) practice for women's races. "

Brand new technique? That article is from 2010, which was over 4 years ago and mentions it being a common practice for the last TWO seasons before that. ie: 2008 and earlier.

It is now 2014, 6 years later. You're asking about water injecting at the Olympics and it is old news - it is not brand new, and like I said your reading comprehension needs some help.


Feb 11 2014 12:12AM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
You must be totally insufferable to be around.

Do I really need to explain to you how 6 years in the scope of a sport that is decades old is a short amount of time? Do I also need to explain that if there was any significant amount of time where this practice was favored for men's races and not really used for women's, it's worth mentioning? You literally said eons and made it sound like I was way off base. And, in one breath, you tell me to google this stuff, not discuss it, and when I do just that, you tell me the sources aren't trustworthy. See the problem here?

And, that article seems to suggest that there are women who think the practice of injecting courses is harmful and potentially increases risk of injury. I don't know that to be true obviously, but I find the debate about the practice itself interesting.

I guess what you really meant is that I should google your personal opinions, accept those as fact and just fuck off?

I hate that this thread has devolved into this bullshit, and I should've just ignored you from the jump, because obviously you've got an axe to grind.
Feb 11 2014 12:20AM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
90%? That is insultingly low. Stop being so sexist and recognize that top female ski racers would destroy 99.999999999999999% of the skiers on ns (only reason it's not 100% is the off-chance that a top male racer is lurking somewhere on here). How about you take a minute and give women their due, and recognize that they are still elite, elite athletes who would destroy any member of the general public, and their gender doesn't take that away from them.

Seriously, it's people like you who are holding women's skiing, and sports in general, back, giving all of them a bad name and treating what they do like a joke.
Feb 11 2014 12:28AM
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Barefootin_Fiend
Posts: 7618 - Karma: 4,727
god damn. there's a whole lot of crazy in this thread.
Feb 11 2014 1:14AM
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ski0
Posts: 2321 - Karma: 5,370
my legs are stronger then nadias legs.
Feb 11 2014 2:18AM
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roach1324
Posts: 215 - Karma: 331
Womens shouldn't be allowed to ski downhills because they are in danger of pulling their muscles.

the ice injection helps but i still don't trust it.
Feb 11 2014 5:55PM
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