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Vice documentary on Freeskiing

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D34DM0053
Posts: 150 - Karma: 604
Thoughts or comments?
I personally would like to see what they come up with as I like the style of their videos.
Feb 2 2014 5:19AM
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McLeod
Posts: 1762 - Karma: 1,582
okay, with all due respect Doug- maybe you guys, NS, should step the fuck up and produce some quality media that represents what the sport and its road to the olympics means to you/the community. How you have not produced any quality originally projects (ie. random edits/series from various members excluded) is beyond me- especially in the build up to the Olympics.... Golden opportunity missed. Hell you guys should have produced this same documentary with the elements that you are complaining were excluded and shopped it around to networks/NBC in the year or two prior to the games- it takes money and initiative to play and it's ridiculous to me at this point that the website that claims to represent the core and founding of our sport has not produced quality media to coincided with that self-labeled reputation.
Feb 5 2014 11:15PM
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pow_pow~
Posts: 1429 - Karma: 1,804
im not knowledgeable to dub post.


but i agree with both of your posts.
Feb 5 2014 11:19PM
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Ski_Punx
Posts: 783 - Karma: 49

Super Stoked on it! Bout' time the sickest thing on snow gets some attention from the rest of the World.
Feb 5 2014 11:23PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
This is what I don't have the credibility to say. Spot on. You fucking nailed it.
Feb 6 2014 12:32AM
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eheath
Posts: 61648 - Karma: 123,472
It was pretty obvious that it was a TNF fueled movie. Granted, it might not have been made if it wasn't for funding from TNF but still. It definitely made skiing look like people just train and compete for the olympics...


All in all I still enjoyed it but a lot of things could have been different.


Also, lol @ anyone who is giving Devin shit cause she called out tanner, thats who she is and she's one of the coolest people you'll meet because she not afraid to speak her mind. I give her props for that and I'm sure Tanner would as well because he's the same way, he'll speak his mind about whatever he wants to.


Also Mcleod is spot on right here, I would've been down to team with with someone like NS to produce a documentary that ns would want to see...
Feb 6 2014 12:56AM
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FroesenSkeeze
Posts: 638 - Karma: 673
Say what you want, but I empathize with Tanner. That was an unnecessary call out from Devin. Sure, he might be bitter and a bit cynical, but with his contributions to the sport, I'd say he is entitled to express his opinions.

That's not saying I agree with what he says, does, or represents...However, I can almost guarantee that in his prime, almost everyone on this site/any freeskier looked up to him. People can be pretty quick to forget.

I do not believe Devin is in any position to say what she said. Tanner was an icon way before Devin's time, and I think he deserves more respect, especially from his own community.
Feb 6 2014 1:00AM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
Like I said in an earlier post I've got nothing but huge respect for you and the site. I'm not trying to sit here and bash you. I haven't done shit for skiing, but please take my words for their meaning and not for any weight I can put behind them because I ain't got shit for weight behind my words - I just got words.

Like McLeod said, the point isn't so much that you should be aware of any potential projects and proactively approach the content creators to make sure they use you, the point is to make the content yourself and shop it around. Or even simply make content that can influence the content other big-name creators (like VICE) are making. If you want to be associated with freeskiing productions in the non-freeskiing worlds you need to associate yourself with that. You can't wait and hope someone else makes the connection for you. That's not smart business sense. Or smart common sense.

If you want this kind of media platform you need to create it, first. You already have the corner on the market and that's the hard part. (The featured film shit you got going on or whatever is such a tiny fraction of what this site could do...)

> I mean sure.... the world doesn't know who we are, but we're a massive force to be reckoned with in the world of Freeskiing.

...NS is a massive force in the world of Freeskiing like Anonymous is a massive force in the world of politics. People chat here because it's a great site to talk shit on (and to connect with other skiers) and it's easy to upload your content to a specific audience.

>I mean hell, Tom Wallisch got his break in his career on Newschoolers.

What does NS have to do with that that another site couldn't have done? NS was certainly the only site at the time that could offer the audience and ease of sharing content, sure, but is that unique to NS? Will it still be unique to NS next year?

What if someone else comes along and does all this shit better? The only reason that hasn't happened yet is because only a few have tried, not because it can't be done or wouldn't be relatively easy.

You have such a huge fucking audience I'm going to be heartbroken if you tell me all you do with it is this forum, the content uploads, and the banner/video advertising.

Anyways. I was super excited to see the effort put forth by VICE and NBC. All the people ragging on it don't realize that NBC and The North Face had a huge impact on who got introduced to VICE and what shots made it in to the final edit. If VICE does a proper, non-network documentary on freeskiing you bet your ass it'll include history, controversy, and more athletes (and more partying).









Feb 6 2014 1:05AM
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404404
Posts: 11358 - Karma: 21,035
NS isn't a 10 headed Hydra that was created by a level 19 mage like Vice. Vice is a billion dollar company with resources up the wazoo. NS however is not.

When do you think NS tuned into a documentary production company. Let me rephrase that. Do you think NS should be a production company? Hey Doug why aren't you making content like Level 1, PBP, or Matchstick? or Vice? Oh yeah.... Its because its a massive undertaking that costs alot of money, would drive resources from the site, and isn't easy to do. You have a producers program, and facilitates an avenue for other people to do that.

"it's ridiculous to me at this point that the website that claims to represent the core and founding of our sport has not produced quality media to coincided with that self-labeled reputation."

Are you new to NS? I know you aren't... NS took a big step and made NS magazine. It was good content, well done, and unique. It gave alot of people who would never be in a skiing mag the chance to be in one. That is fucking core. Core to the fucking bone. They also run this site called Newschoolers.com.

I suggest. With all due respect Mcleod to not visit the site anymore. Your just part of what you think is basically shit, and a media source that, "has not produced quality media".


"Golden opportunity missed. Hell you guys should have produced this same documentary with the elements that you are complaining were excluded and shopped it around to networks/NBC in the year or two prior to the games"

Brah.... Its not that fucking easy. Why? Think about it. It takes literately 500 steps. Each step cost money, time, and more money. I'm sure you are going to say, "Ah dude. Nah its easy you just hire someone and make it happen. Your NS you can do anything". That shit isn't that easy brah.

McLeod explain to me how easy producing something for a major network is. I would also like to know how easy it is to, "shop it around to networks/NBC". Brake it down and understand I'm a simple man so I need alot of explaining.


Feb 6 2014 1:41AM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
And yet Vice was approached and funded by The North Face and NBC for this. I doubt they spent much money on this. No one expects NS to do something this big by themselves. I know you weren't aiming this directly at me, but if NS wants to be involved in projects like this, NS needs to start the ball rolling and let other people pay for it.

It is seriously as easy as coming up with good ideas, slapping your brand (NS) on it, and telling people with money how much more exposure/advertising potential/more money they could make if they just paid you some money to make it happen. And it's not limited to documentaries.

TNF probably came up with the idea for the documentary. There's a pretty big hole in big media coverage of Freeskiing. They sold the idea to NBC who were probably the ones to get Vice involved. But that's it, that's just one idea.

There's still a huge hole. The producers program is a huge thing NS is doing but it seems like nobody at NS really cares if it works or not, at least that's the perspective I got out of it. It could be sooo much bigger with someone else behind it (and NS doing all the work and keeping it on the site and collecting advertising $$).

The magazine is fucking dope, but again... I've never really heard about it. Only reason I know this site exists is because people like you and others talk about it. It probably never crossed TNF's or Vice' mind to include such a huge resource like NS at the fundamental level Bishop thinks the site warrants.


>Brah....  Its not that fucking easy.  Why?  Think about it.  It takes literately 500 steps.  Each step cost money, time, and more money.  I'm sure you are going to say, "Ah dude.  Nah its easy you just hire someone and make it happen.  Your NS you can do anything".  That shit isn't that easy brah.

It isn't easy, but making money never is. Having said that, I doubt Vice put up hardly any money to do this. It's seriously as easy as coming up with great ideas that can use this fucking stupid amazing platform (NS) to help bigger companies do something the bigger companies want to do. The producers program is fucking $$$ and I don't see how NS is making any money off of it right now.


Feb 6 2014 2:11AM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
I should say that while Vice probably didn't end up paying much to make this, they put in an assload of work to put it together. It isn't just, "come up with an idea and get someone else to pay for it". Once you've got an idea and a platform to push it you need to actually do the work to make it happen - ideally you've got someone else's money to do that but you're still doing  shit ton of work.
Feb 6 2014 2:17AM
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McLeod
Posts: 1762 - Karma: 1,582
Vice is now a billion dollar company but started pretty fucking meagerly in guess where, Montreal. NS had all the insight and advantage to producing something on this subject- I'm genuinely surprised that they didn't utilize their edge and produce anything on the Olympics. Vice produced this documentary in a very bare-bones fashion, I saw how it was done and I am 100% convinced that NS would be very capable of the same level of production. How difficulty would it be for NS to have a producer and cinematographer on the Whistler glacier? NZ? Dew Tour? Grand Prix? pretty fucking easy. Beyond that, NS has access to some incredible producers, filmers, and editors- we definitely outshot the Vice guys at Dew Tour and in all honesty it didn't take a lot- I am 100% positive NS could have created a far better project. Doug knows all about pitches to non-endemics and has done so in the past with TNF and recently with various national travel boards- this shit isn't out of left field Andy.

NS has made it quite clear that they want to be content creators/curators. I am by no means saying they should make an annual ski film but it is fairly reasonable to expect some high level video content to come from the site. I am well aware of what this site has done for the sport and nothing I said was a slam against NS. However, if Doug is going to raise some point that another content creator should have involved NS in their project, then I dont have an issue addressing it- it would be pretty damn ridiculous if we got upset that Martini and the Stept guys weren't including us in one of their projects and if we ever complained about that the obvious response would be, "go make it on your own."
Feb 6 2014 5:25AM
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D34DM0053
Posts: 150 - Karma: 604
Don't make me attempt something I either finish or go broke trying. haha but seriously maybe we should stand up as one and make a large cooperative film?
Feb 6 2014 6:37AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
Have you actually sat there and watched the whole 45 minutes in one sitting?

The street footage and stuff is just right at the beginning, it isn't used extensively or talked about much.

The whole thing is a complete puff piece about a few athletes that has a sprinkle of truths of our history, but goes into very little detail about it.

I don't think anyone is being too harsh. They are welcome to their own opinions, and when VICE produces a corporate puff piece, I think they deserve some criticism.

If this was marketed differently there wouldn't be so much issue. They pushed this as a 'history of freeskiing' documentary, but it isn't that at all. Its simply a story about a few athletes and their #roadtosochi brought to you by The North Face.

Feb 6 2014 9:25AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
So the funny thing is we DID shop this idea around to a ton of potential sponsors - including TNF - and sadly it looks like the idea got picked up and just not from us. We worked quite hard at bringing almost exactly this project to life as you're right - we should have been the ones to do it.

In terms of us producing quality content by default, you have to remember that Newschoolers is structured very differently than other media companies. We're social media, not traditional media... so we don't have video people on staff, and we don't have internal budgets to handle that stuff. All of our content budget goes out to our producers, photographers and Journalists. Even when we get a bigger contract (and if we'd gotten this one) we would have used a 3rd party (like Stept, Inspired or one of our top Producers) - and just helped put the whole thing together. Without extra funding though, we can't just put this together on our own as its a massive project and all the people involved would want to be paid.

As with anything, it all revolves around the money. Do I want to kick myself in the nuts for the fact that not only did we not produce this, but were not even involved? Hell yes. I feel terrible that we clearly didn't pitch it right.

Of course, maybe in the end its a blessing in disguise. Maybe Stept, Newschoolers and whoever else wants to get in can re-do this shit without all the Olymipcs stories and actually tell the story correctly.

Feb 6 2014 9:32AM
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Mr.Sloth
Posts: 5091 - Karma: 13,469
Wow. Really good discussion in here. I find myself agreeing with all sides...
Feb 6 2014 11:41AM
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nutz.
Posts: 3150 - Karma: 6,712
I think you're forgetting one major point with your whole argument though. Vice has money, and a whole lot of it. If NS had even half as much money as Vice did, I'd be willing to bet my life's savings that they would have done the documentary on their own, and the companies would be a whole lot more willing to help out.
Feb 6 2014 1:17PM
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eheath
Posts: 61648 - Karma: 123,472
Vice having money doesn't really matter at all. You think vice as a company put a bunch of money into a doc that's on YouTube for free? This doc was funded by tnf and probably a couple other sponsors and vice used that money to pay their filmers/prodcers/writers and probably broke even on the project.
Feb 6 2014 1:37PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,143

Vice is also actually established. If I'm a guy at NBC or TNF, and the guys from Vice are pitching their involvement in a short documentary, I'm listening because that's their wheelhouse. I know what I'm getting. With NS.com, I wouldn't know what I was getting into. Similarly, if I was at TNF and had an idea for a project I'd be more likely to call up Vice to execute it because I know they're capable of doing so.

Feb 6 2014 1:43PM
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UncleGerry
Posts: 1291 - Karma: 1,378
I wonder if Aaron Blunck bangs his coach (Elana Chase).

I sure as fuck would
Feb 6 2014 1:49PM
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nutz.
Posts: 3150 - Karma: 6,712
No, I'm just saying the more money you have, the more influence you have (people will go to you first)
Feb 6 2014 2:02PM
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sugarloaf
Posts: 7866 - Karma: 299
agreed. very interesting discussion
Feb 6 2014 4:10PM
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404404
Posts: 11358 - Karma: 21,035
Your missing the point. Could NS put something like this together? Yes. Why didn't they? They aren't a production company clear and simple. Could they have paid people to do it? Yes. But then they are running into paying people. Could they find sponsors for this? Yeah. But then they are spending time to organize this project taking away from other work. Could Doug spend more time in the office setting this all up? Yes but he has a family and why would he want to spend time away from them making something he isn't in the business of making.

This is a clear and simple case of why would they? Why dont they make a movie like Level 1? They can. Hire people to film, find riders, talk to sponsors, ect.. Basically the same damn things they would need to do to make to make a documentary film but it would take longer to do.

Some times I dont like everything about ski movies I see. Should I go out and spend the time and effort to make a ski movie? No I'm not trying to be part of the business. However like many of us I will sometimes speak my mind about what I didn't like about a movie.

Lets recap.

1. NS isn't a production company in the business of making movies/documentary films.

2. Could they? Yes we all agree on that.

3. Can Doug (or any of us) criticize a project with out having to run out and make something better? Yes its called speaking your mind.

4. NS isn't a production company in the business of making movies/documentary films.

To be honest this is a fucking dumb argument. Doug is criticizing this Vice thing, your bitching about that, and I'm bitch about your bitching. I'm going back to watching cat videos on Reddit.


Feb 6 2014 4:57PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
Yeah I mean on paper in that situation I'd probably trust Vice too. Hell basically until I saw this one, I thought Vice was untouchable to make cool content about anything.

Shit when I found out they'd essentially won the exact same idea I was pitching I only was sad that Vice was in there.

Hindsight is 20/20... and perhaps this is a blowout success for anyone not deep in skiing. I mean it tells a decent story overall, its just disappointing to the core audience because it wasn't the story we all know.
Feb 6 2014 4:58PM
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mski
Posts: 4791 - Karma: 3,803
Most of the time production units miss the mark because the people involved have no idea what they are actually producing. I.E. larger corperate entities that have other goals for the videos/content.

Gotta make that bottom line and keep the investors/clients happy first.
Feb 6 2014 5:01PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
Vice didn't start with a lot of money. I'm also pretty sure they didn't have to pay for much of this at all, TNF handed it to them on a silver platter. I really don't think the money issue is that big of a barrier. Sure their cameras and recording equipment going in to the project were probably top notch but is that such a big deal? I don't know.

Companies don't care how much money you have, they care how much money you can make them. Remember dude, this wasn't Vice's project. Vice was brought in to make it 'legitimate' and 'relevant' and 'hip' for NBC to air it.

TNF went to Vice and paid them to do this, Vice didn't have to use any of their vast wealth to put this project together.
Feb 6 2014 6:20PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
The only reason I'm arguing the other side of this is because Bishop asked why he wasn't involved. The answer is why would they involve him? It's a TNF fluff piece aired on NBC, this isn't one of the gritty/well-done Vice documentaries shot without network oversight where they can afford to go in to a subject deep enough to care about NS.

If he wanted to be involved he should have ran the project himself - it sucks that someone else did after it sounds like he tried to pitch it, but that's life.
Feb 6 2014 6:24PM
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Line_Skis
Posts: 1989 - Karma: 37,729
this Olympics thing is making for really long threads.
Feb 6 2014 7:48PM
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Chunter
Posts: 2050 - Karma: 1,894
I was excited to see what line contributed when I saw you guys in my threads and I wasn't let down lol.
Feb 6 2014 7:52PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
What? Why?

They consulted with a bunch of people who didn't have to make the whole movie to give their $0.02. All I'm saying is that if they're doing the history of freeskiing, NS should be a source that was consulted. Same logic as saying its crazy they didn't talk with or include Henrik.

Anyway, its all a moot point really. Vice I guess has corporate interests in mind, NSBC and TNF wanted something that hyped up the american team, and they got people to watch it by calling it a history of freeskiing documentary.

Feb 6 2014 10:33PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 547
Dude the main source VICE had was The North Face, the people who funded and pitched the idea. The idea for this film didn't come from NBC or from VICE. That's it right there. They called it the history of freeskiing to get people to watch it but it's the 'very recent history of freeskiing as The North Face wants you to see it'.

What you seem to want is 'the history of freeskiing as NS wants you to see it'. Which I think would be fucking dope.

But that's not what was shot, and that's why you weren't included - not because you aren't a huge fucking resource and not because the site isn't a huge influence but because TNF wanted to do it the TNF way and that way didn't include NS beyond a very basic, very forgettable level.

Feb 6 2014 11:35PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
Really?
Feb 7 2014 2:10AM
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Static
Posts: 8561 - Karma: 4,139
eh, at least they didn't stick one of their pussy pants correspondents in the doc
Feb 7 2014 2:13AM
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louie.mirags
Posts: 6015 - Karma: 5,027
This thread is getting to me because I loved vice a lot. Vice is always claiming to be different than other reporting sources and that they remain unbiased. But, now I see they have corporate interest in my mind and they put out an ad disguised as our history.
Feb 7 2014 5:15AM
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B-runge
Posts: 16558 - Karma: 361
Did anyone notice that when arron fell, his coach was just super pissed off at head because his ski popped off. She just ran into the tent saying fucking garbage and motherfuckers. When he took his second run he was using the same model of skis but with fks on them, haha
Feb 8 2014 3:24PM
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CrotchKiller
Posts: 9037 - Karma: 6,943
yea, not surprising haha
Feb 8 2014 5:53PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7511 - Karma: 36,436
You should be happy you weren't involved in this. I doubt you would have been able to change the direction of doc and would you really want your name on this finished product?

It wasn't a bad doc just had a very misleading title that disappointed me. I can only hope to see it done right in the future and it better be a lot longer than 45 mins.
Feb 10 2014 2:20PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
Threads
Feb 10 2014 2:39PM
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OGHolliday
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 2,430
lol, Devin "Olympic Silver Medalist" Logan, guess you're not a burnout after all. Regardless neither is Tanner
Feb 11 2014 10:07PM
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404404
Posts: 11358 - Karma: 21,035
Just watched it. Not that bad as I thought it would be, or people made it out to be.

Not a documentary on freeskiing, or even comp skiing as a whole . It was just following select few trying to make it into the Olympics with Tanner mixed it. It was more of a Logan, Tom, Maddie, and Aron documentary.

Good thing is it leaves plenty of room to do a documentary that is about freeskiing as a whole, the history, urban skiing, park skiing, ect... Or another one on Tanner.... Still one of the best skiing movies ever is Tanners movie Like A Lion.


Feb 11 2014 11:22PM
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Xanadoo
Posts: 729 - Karma: 1,237
Dont lose faith in Vice man. Idk if youve watched their show on HBO but i think that that is a great example of them reporting on exactly what it is they think is important. I wouldnt say it is necessarily 'unbiased' as a lot of the stories they cover do seem to be coming from a specific point of view but it is very interesting, compelling reporting that very clearly is exactly what they, as a company feel is important and want to report on.

i think that with this particular documentary there seem to be two issues:

1. where the money was coming from (as other people have mentioned.) they didnt have the same type of leeway to decide what they wanted to do- because of the nature of the project and the funding - in the same way that they do with their show on HBO (which is a company that is fantastic at letting people do their own thing) or their documentary on say Snoop Dogg becoming Snoop Lion (which is a god awful piece of shit and is barely watchable simply because the topic is so ridiculous.)

2. it seems to me that TNF probably had this idea and thought "hmm this seems like the kind of project vice would do well/be interested in." and when it was taken to vice they were like "yeah, we dont know a ton about this but it totally seems awesome, we want to do it." it was probably somewhat of a learning experience for them. and given that fact and the fact that they could not do whatever they wanted with total artistic authority they ended up creating a movie that is not quite what we as the core of the freeski community pictured when we heard "Vice is doing a documentary on the history of freeskiing"

I think its great that they have taken an interest and hopefully they (or someone) will continue to take an interest and eventually we will get a documentary that is more all encompassing of what freeskiing truly is
Feb 12 2014 12:29AM
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Chubz.
Posts: 13918 - Karma: 25,663
Truuu
Feb 12 2014 12:33AM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
Did anyone think to look at the whole picture of what TNF did with Rise (The History of Freeskiing) and how it transitioned into the VICE doc on the road to the Olympics for these specific skiers?

Makes a ton of sense if you actually think about the whole picture.
Feb 12 2014 10:49PM
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HarlTheGnarl
Posts: 196 - Karma: -282
Did anyone else get thoroughly creeped out by the Aaron Blunck parts? One part has him sitting on the couch playing with action figures with his parents standing around him talking about how he likes to play with his toys...I felt like they were filming inside of an insane asylum ward. And then his coach/mentor chick breaking down crying and lying on the kitchen floor after talking about wearing helmets?? Weird shit.


It is also kinda messed up how they portrayed Tanner, almost sad. Every shot was of him sitting by a computer with a pack of cigs and weed scattered around him while he was talking about how everything "used to be."

Pretty much, Vice made a terrible documentary. They had so much potential to make something sick. Martini/Stept should put something together.
Feb 28 2014 9:23AM
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