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College football players trying to unionize

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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299


Check it

if embed doesnt work:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10363430/outside-lines-northwestern-wildcats-football-players-trying-join-labor-union&ex_cid=sportscenter
Jan 28 2014 12:13PM
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JustForYou
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If you think college football players will ever get paid.
Jan 28 2014 12:23PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
i dont think theyre trying to get paid (yet). I think the reason right now is more for saftey issues, rule changes, draft and agent rules, and im sure at some point the issue of getting paid would be addressed.

And while I think it could go either way, you're pretty fucking stupid if you think there is no way at all college players will get paid. I could easily see endorsements being allowed.
Jan 28 2014 12:29PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
College football: The 3 seasons between high school football and the NFL.

Yeah, only for a select few but really I think it's really fucked up how college sports are used as a gateway to the big leagues.

I get that college sports are a business. A school being strong in a sport leads to plenty of good things but when an athlete is a given a full ride just to drop out to go pro I think it's BS.
Jan 28 2014 1:27PM
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timmi
Posts: 12874 - Karma: 3,460
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Jan 28 2014 1:37PM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
good for them they should unionize and got compensated if there name is being used without permission or for someone else to make money.

The college I went to was a pretty good college but had a shit football team. As bad as they were, I think they didnt win a single game one season, they all bragged to the other kids whent hey argued in class with other athletes about how there team brought in like 5 mil for the school each season. blew my mind considering how awful they are
Jan 28 2014 1:41PM
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LiquorLanch
Posts: 1909 - Karma: 1,046
You kidding me? Compensation? These kids are getting full rides to play sports and taking insanely easy course on top of everything(most cases). Such BS....

They don't need to be paid when they're getting a full education at a good school for free.
Jan 28 2014 2:01PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
Athletes at big schools have the easiest time academically. The school pays for tutors to literally walk them through everything. So they're really not getting an education, just a degree.
Jan 28 2014 2:03PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
Do you know how many millions upon millions of dollars these kids make for universities?

Texas A&M makes tens of millions of dollars just on Johnny football for using HIS NAME. But legally he is not allowed to earn a dime for his name or likeness? That whole big deal about him making a few grand off of selling his autograph was going to get him suspended for hte season, but of course A&M can exploit the Manziel name however they see fit in the pursuit of profit. They even auctioned off a dinner with Manziel that sold for tens of thousands of dollars.

Don't get me wrong, I don't exactly feel bad for these athletes that go to school and get free rides with doing zero work, but exploiting someone and making very serious money off their name while telling them they can't earn one cent for doing the same is very fucked up
Jan 28 2014 2:13PM
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JordanButtfart
Posts: 1013 - Karma: 3,027
This is 100% true. I had an FSU starting receiver (not going to name him) sit next to me in an easy A class last semester and he had someone with him 24-7 and had a golf cart pick him up and take him to the training center after class. Shit was crazy I wish I was a D1 fucking athlete.
Jan 28 2014 2:16PM
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,633
But they can earn a cent. Its called the NFL. The best players make the most money for the schools, we can probably agree on that. And most of the best players have huge bonuses once they get to the NFL. All they have to do is play for a college, educate themselves, better their talents, and then make the big money. And while they are doing all of that work in college, they don't have to worry about a thing financially. Food, rent, clothes, all paid for.


If someone would have told me that if I played 4 years of college football and made it in the NFL after I would have paid my own tuition to take that deal. It's not unfair and its not fucked up, its an opportunity.

And even some of the best college players, like Tim Tebow, don't have great NFL careers, but if they go to college and get a degree they can have a prosperous life after football. In Tebows years in the NFL he made about $1 million a year...
Jan 28 2014 2:25PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
The NFL has nothing to do with NCAA athletes. It should have no impact on whether or not college athletes make money. You know how many NCAA football players make it into the NFL? Just over 2%, the amount that make any serious money or have an actual career in the NFL is way smaller.

What about the players that choose not to play in the NFL? That are star players making millions for their university through junior year then get injured their final season and can't play in the NFL?

I appreciate that htey get tuition, room and board, food and other things (illegally) paid for, but what boosters and the schools are paying to cover the costs for some of these athletes pale in comparison to what the schools are making by exploiting someones name. You can not do that legally anywhere else, but for some reason it's okay for the NCAA - a very fucked up organization
Jan 28 2014 2:32PM
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,633
Didn't know the stat was 2% of NCAA players make it to the NFL. And yes the injuries thing happens and really fucks it up.

One thing I would like to see, because this argument will never end until somehow they get compensated. Give the players a % of jersey sales when they get their degree. Athletes who leave early for the NFL don't get rewarded. And maybe deduct their scholarship money from that "bonus".
Jan 28 2014 2:37PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
Actually it's even lower than 2%

http://www.businessinsider.com/odds-college-athletes-become-professionals-2012-2?op=1

I agree you can't just be handing these college kids millions of dollars - that is an absolute recipe for disaster.

I just think some agreement has to be made, exploiting someones name for personal gain while subjecting them to insanely idiotic and strict rules is reprehensible. I really like that idea of giving them money post graduation, forcing them to complete a field of study.
Jan 28 2014 2:44PM
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5852 - Karma: 4,531
I guess it's not great they don't get money but it's what they sign onto. It's not like they go to college expecting to get paid and find out they get money, just hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of things for free.
Jan 28 2014 2:46PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
YES YES YES

Also you can't market your own name, even simultaneously as the NCAA or your college. If you were to say make a rap album, you couldnt use any of your own image and be part of an NCAA team. You can't even be your own business spokesman. And these are 18-22 year old men, full adult men with the same constitutional rights as the rest of us, who get paid by going to a school for free that doesn't care if they learn shit.

How is that fair? If they were getting paid, then it would be reasonable to ask them to waive some of their rights, as many jobs do, such as the NFL. But they aren't, and anyone who thinks a free tuition is fair is blind. Some players really do get the most out of it. Steven Hauschka, the place kicker for the Seahawks, decided to kick for his team for tuition to Neuroscience Grad School. Ryan Fitzpatrick, Richard Sherman, and others have treated it similarly. That is the ideal the NCAA wants you to see and hear about. The reality is much different, in fact the football players who come in on scholarships dont receive the same college as a normal student. They are told what the easiest, simplest major is, receive tutoring en masse to ensure they at least pass, corners get cut, (some) professors turn a blind eye on test day, and after 3-4 years for the most part they dropout, or dropout with a degree. Some get into training camps, but even there most get cut before they see a paycheck.

They are now jobless and schooless, with nothing to show for their years spent making their college piles of cash. Some have degrees but they didn't learn enough about their field to get a real job in it, or there were never any jobs at all, it was just the major that was picked for them. Those who are from the hood (most of them) move back for family, free rent, friends, and the real world experience they do actually have. Some do well in the corporate world, but most of them don't. Compare that to the average non athlete college student. Once those paths are more aligned the NCAA will have a real foot to stand on. Until then, they have billions of dollars and thousands of young men's lives they need to answer for.
Jan 28 2014 2:47PM
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~~~~~~~~
Posts: 2345 - Karma: 2,104
No one's forcing them to pick the life of a college athlete. It's not the schools fault they waist their time in university rather than take full advantage of the tremendous opportunities they have earned/been given. I fully believe tuition is more than enough compensation for any NCAA athlete.

Jan 28 2014 3:02PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
What causes the people who do well in college to do well for the most part? usually their parents and their peers. Most football athletes don't have parents who have been to college and can advise them on how to take advantage, most don't have real friends outside of the football program, and most don't have advisers or coaches who will talk and walk them through college in a completely new and different culture and world.

And while they aren't forced to be athletes, they can't afford tuition, and the non college options are pretty shitty. If they think they at least have a shot at the NFL or NBA, they're going to take it, since its the only shot in life they will probably get, and the only one they've been taught to see.
Jan 28 2014 3:06PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
So you think it's okay for A&M to auction a dinner date with Manziel for 20 grand and keep all the profits for themselves, but if Manziel was to auction a dinner date by himself he shouldn't be allowed to keep any money? That is asinine.

So because you go into something not expecting any money and get paid its cool? I wasn't expecting to get paid when I sold some shares of stock I've had for a couple years, but I found out I got some money. By your justification I should give that back to the company because I wasn't expecting it? Or maybe the state?
Jan 28 2014 3:11PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
judging by your poor grammar and spelling I'm guessing you didnt waist time at a university either...
Jan 28 2014 3:14PM
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Davy.Crockett
Posts: 5373 - Karma: 324
Honestly i don't even understand why so many players are so loyal to their schools. If i was good enough to go to the NFL id go to the draft at the first opportunity. colleges make million of dollars off your name, and you don't see a cent of it. your also fucking up your body for free which leads to your careers end quicker.
Jan 28 2014 3:22PM
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5852 - Karma: 4,531
It may be asinine, but it's what he signed up for. You can't enter a contract and then complain when they are acting within the contract. Yes, it's not exactly fair. But that's the way it is.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your example... It doesn't make sense. You sold shares on the stock market for a higher price than you bought them but you didn't expect to make any money from it? So you should give it back? Did you have a contract with the company you bought the shares from that said you couldn't make money off them?
Jan 28 2014 3:25PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
The issue is there is no negotiating the contracts. For every other athlete contract in the world you have a say. The "it's just the way it is" argument is the worst one out there, If something is clearly unfair, change it and fix it. People who say "its sad and bad and unfair, but that's just the way it is" go no where in life, and the the sheeple who will follow anything in the name of tradition. Glad to see the athletes at Northwestern getting the ball rolling.
Jan 28 2014 3:30PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
Just because I wasn't expecting money I shouldn't get to keep the money? You said just because college players aren't expecting money, they shouldn't get to keep any of it.

It's not okay to exploit someones name and make a profit from them. Doesn't matter if thats how things were or whatever other terrible excuse is out there. When you are using someones name, intellectual property, brand etc. you have to adequately compensate them. Giving players something like a scholarship but not actually paying them is not adequate, it does not compare to the hundreds of millions of dollars these universities make from their names
Jan 28 2014 3:42PM
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~~~~~~~~
Posts: 2345 - Karma: 2,104
Holy fuck I'm on mobile, thanks for addressing my point. Everything they do is entirely voluntary and they are already given far more opportunities than the rest of their peers. The colleges provide the spotlight to ignite their potential professional careers AND offer them a free top tier education.

Paying them would only worsen this problem of athletes graduating with no real knowledge in their heads.
Jan 28 2014 3:48PM
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5852 - Karma: 4,531
It's not that they aren't expecting money, it's (I assume) specifically stated in their contracts that they won't get money from them selling their image. It's not an assumption, its stated.

I'm not sticking up for it, I think it's ridiculous. But I also think your entire NCAA sports system is inherently flawed and stupid. But our College sport is a lot different to yours in the US.

The problem as I see it, is that there isn't a short supply of guys wanting to play college football. Which means that the college aren't under any obligation to negotiate to get people. Yes, they will always want the best but at a good price. The price is the key. I'm not knowledgeable on NFL, but I assume it's like AFL where within the first 200 draft picks the skill level is similar. Similar enough that each uni wouldn't pay a huge price to cement the top picks (the ones that feel like they can negotiate their contracts) when there are plenty that would do anything to play college football and as such accept the rules of the contract.
Jan 28 2014 3:50PM
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HitTheJim
Posts: 787 - Karma: 399
The NCAA has practically monopolized the market for athletes out of high school. If you leave high school and want to pursuit professional sports, in nearly every case you are forced to go play for a college for one or two years before you even have the opportunity to go pro. As you're stalling your life and waiting to have an opportunity to make money, the college is stacking up piles of money because of you.

Also saying, "its not exactly fair. But that's the way it is." is the most retarded logic ever. If it's unfair, it needs to be fixed. If we said "but that's the way it is." to every unfair situation we encountered, then reform would never occur.
Jan 28 2014 4:04PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
Your'e right it is stated somewhere that they aren't allowed any extra compensation or something like that I can't remember the exact words. The NCAA system is a terrible organization with many flaws this one just happens to be one of the largest because of the dollar figures attached to the argument
Jan 28 2014 4:05PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
They're going to school for free, and having an easy time there. If they want to get paid to play sports, they can just go to the NFL. If they're not good enough to go to the NFL, they can fuc
Jan 28 2014 4:25PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
they are having an easy time at a facade of a school made to keep them on the field, they can't "just go to the NFL" on a whim, and just because you aren't a top athlete, I doubt you think you deserve to fail.
Jan 28 2014 4:28PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
Oops cut that post off.


If they're not good enough to go to the NFL they can fuck off. The point of college is education and research. The copious amounts of money generated by the football program should go back into improving the academic resources of the school. There's no long-term, meaningful return on an investment of paying college athletes. There is a very tangible, long term return in funneling money into academics. They're getting to go to school for free, and should be grateful for it.
Jan 28 2014 4:28PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
once again, they arent actually going to college.

Your version of college is different than what they receive.
Jan 28 2014 4:29PM
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HitTheJim
Posts: 787 - Karma: 399
Baseball is the only major sport I know of where people go straight to the league out of high school. 1 year required wait for NBA, 2 year for NFL, not sure about the rules for hockey, and with baseball if you decline a draft offer out of high school you have to wait for your junior year. It's not as simple as you make it seem.
Jan 28 2014 4:31PM
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JWeinstock
Posts: 3439 - Karma: 1,352
no, you can't just go to he NFL. you have to spend three years getting hit from every possible and then you can start making money.

Also to everyone saying they want to be a D1 athlete, i don't think you guys realize that they basically don't have a social life
Jan 28 2014 4:31PM
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HitTheJim
Posts: 787 - Karma: 399
That has a lot to do with what school you're at, what sport you're playing, and whether it's in season or out of season.
Jan 28 2014 4:34PM
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5852 - Karma: 4,531
Just because it's unfair doesn't mean it's going to be changed. You said they have monopolised the pre-NFL market, which means they are able to do whatever they like (within reason). In a legal sense it is fair, they're entering into a voluntary contract that sates they won't make money from their image, get paid ect for their services. Instead they are paid with lodging, training, tuition, food, resources ect. It's not like they are working for nothing, they are still getting reimbursed for their commitment to the sport.

And did you read the second half of my post? It's unlikely to change because there are thousands of people who would willingly take the spots of the guys who believe they should be paid. (Whether they should or not).
Jan 28 2014 4:35PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
No shit, that's the first thing I said in this thread. A small group of people go to college to play sports, but that doesn't change the fact that colleges are educational and research institutions.

Ok, so you can't go right to the pros from high school. Do your 1-3 years at college getting to go there for free, and then go pro. Or try and get pro leagues to change their rules (which they probably won't do).
Jan 28 2014 4:40PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Let's take a step back for a second. The NCAA consists of 1281 schools and gives out 89 championships a year. The problem we're seeing here isn't because of 1281 schools, the problem is just at the very top. It's the top ranked football and basketball teams that are on TV every week that push the money around.

How many teams are actually self sufficient? A google told me 23 of 228 d1 public schools athletic programs were self sufficient in 2012.

It's the 1% that is the problem here. It's Basketball and Football in the ranked schools where a lot of kids have a shot at the pros. How much money is there in swimming and diving, or rifle, or bowling? It's only football and basketball. I bet there's some other random teams out there with positive net cash flows but not to the same extent.

Not being able to make money off of a jersey being sold with your name on it is whack and needs to be changed for fraction of a percent effected by this. Maybe it's time The top 50 programs in basketball and football where the teams are actually run as a business separate themselves from the NCAA but calling any member of those programs an student first and athlete second is a little BS.

Jan 28 2014 4:47PM
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papermache
Posts: 1097 - Karma: 616

this argument lacks any sense to me. would you apply this logic to child movie stars? sure, the kid earns all the money, but the parents pay for all the school, rent/housing/food so certaintly the parents, deserve all the earned income right? bull shit. college athletes earn pennies on the dollar when you compare what they recieve/what they should.

College athletes deserve a cut bottom line. if it makes everybody feel better then the ncaa can setup trust or escrow accounts and hold the money until graduation.

Jan 28 2014 4:51PM
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HitTheJim
Posts: 787 - Karma: 399
I agree that something being unfair doesn't mean that it will change, but it does means it should changed. As for the legality, yes it is a fair when you look it at contractually, but the issue is that there is no other type of contract available. Depending on the direction that this unionization goes in, it's possible that some time down the road the union will be strong enough that the NCAA will give in.
Jan 28 2014 4:51PM
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