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Edges... help me through the bullshit: 1.7mm 2.2mm 2.5mm ??? Thickness/Width, who uses what/

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Twig
Posts: 6406 - Karma: 60,019
Too much marketing. I'm looking at skis and put a lot of value on edge durability.

As far as I can tell, you can get:
1.7mm (width) x 1.3 mm (height)(standard edge)
2.2mm x 1.3 mm
2.2mm x 1.7 mm
2.2mm x 1.7 mm
2.5mm x 1.7 mm
2.5mm x 2.5 mm (maybe)
But manufacturers only ever list 1 dimension, if any.

Line/K2 use 'fatty base and edge' but what does that mean? 2.5x1.7 or 2.5x2.5 (they do look fat).
Atomic list their park edges as 2.2mm. Is that 2.2x1.3, 2.2x1.7 or 2.2x2.2?
Same story at armada:
They use 2.2 on the Al Dente but is that 2.2x1.3/1.7/2.2?
What about the other park skis 2.5xwhat?
Most other manufacturers don't list at all, what edges do nordica, rossi, salomon etc use?

To me edge durability is one of the two most important features to me, I'm finding it had to buy a ski without knowing what edges they have?
Dec 10 2013 5:54AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Ski companies pull out the largest number they can for edges, but rarely are the height and width actually listed. One dimension is height, as measured from the sidewall view, the other as measured when viewing from the base.

Besides thickness, a huge factor I consider important in durability is what kind of teeth hold that edge in place in that ski. Also, the burliest edges don't mean anything if it's not constructed well - I've seen some bad base/edge gaps on production skis on shop walls.
Dec 10 2013 9:46AM
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Kretzschmar
Posts: 6706 - Karma: 98,266
curious to know as well.
Dec 10 2013 9:47AM
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Twig
Posts: 6406 - Karma: 60,019
Edge sizes arent the only factor in durability but they are the most quantifiable way to guage how long the edges will last.

I guessed the manufacturer lists the biggest number but it could be that for example with Armada the 2.5mm impact edge is 2.5x1.7mm and the 2.2mm impact edge is 2.2x1.7mm in which case it isn't too big a difference. But if it were 2.5x1.7 vs 2.2x1.3 that would be a big difference etc.
Dec 10 2013 11:21AM
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Dr.Dickless
Posts: 2620 - Karma: 1,392
I know on K2's it is thicker and wider, a 2.2x2.2 I believe
Dec 10 2013 1:16PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018
Lots of BS out there when it comes to edges.

Just a sample of what is out there.
Click for larger image

For the record, ON3P uses a 2.5mm x 2.5mm edge, with a 1.80mm base 4001 Durasurf base.

This is the beefiest, stronger set up we can get without spending insane amounts of money, and a 4-month lead time, to get totally custom edges manufactured just for us.

Standard base thickness is around 1.3mm, though the width and thickness of the edges used varies greatly between manufacturers.

Also, from what I've seen, most companies list the edge width, not the thickness. We choose to do both because we feel both matter. A 2.2mm wide edge is great, but at only 2mm thick, it won't have the life and durability of an edge that is 25% thicker.
Dec 10 2013 5:34PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
Most ski companies just tell you the width (from back out) not the height (from sidewall down). Problem is, in my experience, the height is the more important of the two when it comes durability. I know K2 claims 2.5mm edges (might have been 3.5mm, can't remember), but the height is like 1.5mm, so they don't really last any longer than any other edge that's 1.5mm high. Where as (like iggyskier said) ON3P has 2.5mm by 2.5mm edges and they don't wear out as fast (case in point, I went through 2 pairs of Domains 1 year, the next year I skied more and harder on FRs and barely made a dent in the edge life).
Dec 10 2013 7:23PM
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JakeHarris
Posts: 56 - Karma: -16
youre putting too much thought into it. any ski over a certain price point will be fine as long as you dull the edges for rails. also pretty much any edge is gonna blow apart if you hit it right.

ps... dont buy into salomons "edge armor"
Dec 10 2013 7:34PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,662
that's just not right. certain skis (i.e. on3ps) use thick edges and therefore the edges will last longer than skis without thicker edges, even if the rest of the skis features will drive up the cost.

if you pay $600 for skis, it doesn't guarantee they'll be super durable, it just means you paid $600 dollar for skis. if what OP is looking for in terms of durability is thicker edges, then why wouldn't he search out a ski with thicker, more solid edges? i own a pair of on3p's myself and compared to park skis i've ridden in the past, the edges DO make the difference.
Dec 10 2013 8:27PM
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Lemuel
Posts: 14486 - Karma: 10,632
Idk what Rossi uses, but it is worthless. Their paper thin technology disappears in days. Line's edges have held up the best from my experience.
Dec 10 2013 10:17PM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
The other thing that has to be accounted for is the actual dimension of the edge post base grinding. This solely stems from how well the manufacturer did in pressing the skis. It's likely more notable in small scale building but many guys on ski builders have struggled with having bases that aren't flat and take a lot of grinding to get the bases completely ground. If the ski base is concave post pressing then a lot more edge material will be removed, and if the ski base is convex, a lot more base material from the center of the ski will be removed.

I think most manufacturers are really good for having flat bases but who knows, there is still that possibility of having and edge advertised as a 2.2x2.2 but it may have gone down to 1.9x2.2 after sanding. So again, buying quality made products matters.
Dec 11 2013 1:11AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
threads, tomorrow i'll take some calipers to work and see what measurements i can get for you guys :)
Dec 11 2013 7:01AM
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Twig
Posts: 6406 - Karma: 60,019
I'm gonna take some to the local shop later as well.

FYI My K2 Domains seem to be:
2-2.2mm width
1.7mm height
Dec 11 2013 7:20AM
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Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
Lol no, you choose to do so because it proves that you have superior edges to anyone else.
Dec 11 2013 6:18PM
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KittenFactory
Posts: 189 - Karma: 2,288
It's kind of difficult to see, but here is a side by side shot of a 2.5 x 2.5 mm edge that we use on our jib skis next to a 2 x 2.2 mm edge that we use on our all mountain and pow skis. The profiles are 34 and 129 in the CDW chart that iggy posted above. It's crazy how much burlier the 2.5 mm edges are. The thicker bases and edges add a significant amount of weight to a ski but definitely make up for it in terms of edge cracks and durability.

Click for larger image

Dec 11 2013 7:04PM
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Twig
Posts: 6406 - Karma: 60,019
I went in to a shop to pick up some sticks but also check out a few brand's edges. This was only measured with a ruler I picked up from work, so dont expect me to be perfect on the numbers but ballpark figures.

Atomic Infamous - 2.2 x 2mm
K2/Line - 2.2mm x 2mm
Armada '2.5impact edge' - 2.5mm x 2mm
Armada Al Dente Edge - 2mm x 1.3mm (paper thin edges).
Volkl Kink - 2mm x 2mm
Scott Jib - 2mm x 2mm
Dec 12 2013 6:11AM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7478 - Karma: 35,989
KittenFactoryIt's kind of difficult to see, but here is a side by side shot of a 2.5 x 2.5 mm edge that we use on our jib skis next to a 2 x 2.2 mm edge that we use on our all mountain and pow skis. The profiles are 34 and 129 in the CDW chart that iggy posted above. It's crazy how much burlier the 2.5 mm edges are. The thicker bases and edges add a significant amount of weight to a ski but definitely make up for it in terms of edge cracks and durability.




Do those edges not have flanges? In my experience unflanged edges pull out super easy although they may not crack as easily.
Mar 21 2015 10:40PM
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Burgy
Posts: 414 - Karma: 630
line uses 2.2mm wide by 2.5mm high
Mar 21 2015 11:02PM
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KittenFactory
Posts: 189 - Karma: 2,288
TOAST.Do those edges not have flanges? In my experience unflanged edges pull out super easy although they may not crack as easily.


All of our edges do have flanges on them.
Mar 21 2015 11:16PM
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supersquid
Posts: 1430 - Karma: 2,545
From my understanding edge damage on park skis can happen in two ways: super heating then super cooling or heavy impacts. Certain edge widths can affect these two. firstly the super heating then super cooling happens because of friction from sliding rails. the ski edge heats up really hot on the rail then cools very fast when it hits the snow, this and the pressure of landing hard can cause edge cracks deformed edges. Sharper edges can cause more friction as can thicker edges as they can absorb more heat. so a 2.5 mm edge can be prone to this while a thinner one not so much. secondly the impacts (pretty self explanatory) is caused from heavy impacts. thinner edges can be more prone to cracking while thicker edges arent. thats pretty much the basis of what i gathered, but by no means am i an edge expert so feel free to correct me if im wrong. Also ive heard a rumor that since armada heat treats their edges the friction from hityting rails can reset or ruin them after periods of time, just a rumor though
Mar 22 2015 12:12AM
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K.Breit
Posts: 211 - Karma: 143
TwigI went in to a shop to pick up some sticks but also check out a few brand's edges. This was only measured with a ruler I picked up from work, so dont expect me to be perfect on the numbers but ballpark figures.

Atomic Infamous - 2.2 x 2mm
K2/Line - 2.2mm x 2mm
Armada '2.5impact edge' - 2.5mm x 2mm
Armada Al Dente Edge - 2mm x 1.3mm (paper thin edges).
Volkl Kink - 2mm x 2mm
Scott Jib - 2mm x 2mm


No wonder the edges on the T Halls I have seem to completely blow apart...Didn't take me a week to get the first crack. Not a month to have the edges in close to 40 segments..and one season I'm missing an inch.
By the end of the next (hardly skiied) season, I'm missing close to 4 inches on one ski underfoot and about 3 on the other ski...not to mention the massive base delam problem I have going on... This season i seem to lose a little chunk of the ski each day I get out there...and I live in Washington, so as you know there has not been much snow.
Mar 22 2015 6:51PM
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K.Breit
Posts: 211 - Karma: 143
KittenFactoryAll of our edges do have flanges on them.


I apologize to the double post..but could someone provide the courtesy of explaining what flanges on edges are?
Mar 22 2015 6:53PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
Burgyline uses 2.2mm wide by 2.5mm high


No, they don't. It's 2.5mm wide by 2.2mm high. You can't have a 1.7mm base and a 2.5mm edge, it doesn't match up.
Mar 22 2015 7:00PM
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K.Breit
Posts: 211 - Karma: 143
BWalmerNo, they don't. It's 2.5mm wide by 2.2mm high. You can't have a 1.7mm base and a 2.5mm edge, it doesn't match up.


Does a 0.1mm difference really drastically effect the bonding? I would have thought that when the skis get pressed that 0.1mm gap would disappear under pressure. I understand the need of being precise..I'm just curious as to how much of a difference that actually makes.
Mar 22 2015 7:09PM
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Burgy
Posts: 414 - Karma: 630
BWalmerNo, they don't. It's 2.5mm wide by 2.2mm high. You can't have a 1.7mm base and a 2.5mm edge, it doesn't match up.


sorry 2mm wide and 2.5mm high... it says on their catalog, and iv measured the height and width but maybe i am doing something wrong.
Mar 22 2015 8:56PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
K.BreitDoes a 0.1mm difference really drastically effect the bonding? I would have thought that when the skis get pressed that 0.1mm gap would disappear under pressure. I understand the need of being precise..I'm just curious as to how much of a difference that actually makes.


Yeah, when trying to make a watertight seal, every fraction of a millimeter counts.

Burgysorry 2mm wide and 2.5mm high... it says on their catalog, and iv measured the height and width but maybe i am doing something wrong.


They don't label the directions of the length and width in the catalog unfortunately, leaving people to guess. But if you look at them compared to a 2.5mmx2.5mm edge on a ski it's pretty easy to tell that they're not 2.5mm high. We're talking fractions of millimeters here, it's very hard to measure without really precise tools.
Mar 22 2015 9:09PM
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kung_powpow
Posts: 1990 - Karma: 3,671
K.BreitNo wonder the edges on the T Halls I have seem to completely blow apart...Didn't take me a week to get the first crack. Not a month to have the edges in close to 40 segments..and one season I'm missing an inch.
By the end of the next (hardly skiied) season, I'm missing close to 4 inches on one ski underfoot and about 3 on the other ski...not to mention the massive base delam problem I have going on... This season i seem to lose a little chunk of the ski each day I get out there...and I live in Washington, so as you know there has not been much snow.


That's weird, my t halls have held up really well. Better than the lines, rossignols, 2 volkls, moments, 2 atomics, and nordica park skis I've owned.
Mar 22 2015 9:41PM
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Burgy
Posts: 414 - Karma: 630
They don't label the directions of the length and width in the catalog unfortunately, leaving people to guess. But if you look at them compared to a 2.5mmx2.5mm edge on a ski it's pretty easy to tell that they're not 2.5mm high. We're talking fractions of millimeters here, it's very hard to measure without really precise tools.[/QUOTE]

yeah that's a aspect that has confused me, thank you for clearing it up, and yes it is hard to measure within half millimeters aha.
Mar 22 2015 9:50PM
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Lemuel
Posts: 14486 - Karma: 10,632
HG uses the thickest edges I have seen so far. I'll try to remember to measure them tomorrow. We compared them to all the other skis in the shop and they put everything to shame, including Line and K2.
Mar 22 2015 10:49PM
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K.Breit
Posts: 211 - Karma: 143
kung_powpowThat's weird, my t halls have held up really well. Better than the lines, rossignols, 2 volkls, moments, 2 atomics, and nordica park skis I've owned.


maybe I suck at waxing
Mar 23 2015 10:55AM
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