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Lets talk ski boot flex.

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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
What up my fellow gapers....:)


I am having a bit of a dilemma, and hopefully, some of you can help

Recently purchased an entirely new set up, Moment PB&J's, poles, googles, yadda yadda. What I wanna talk about is THE BOOTS.

I purchased a pair of Tecnica Cochise 90's. I weigh 190 lbs. consider myself to be at advanced level. Maybe intermediate/advanced. Do not do any racing. Boot cost 400. They are brand new. Good fit, comfortable, I like em.

Now, thru gauging opinions on 'another forum' (its epic ski, no need to beat around the bush) I have been told that a flex index of 90 is to soft for my skiing style/weight. I was advised, to bite the bullet, in so many words, and buy a $600-700 dollar boot with a higher flex index, ie 120-130 range.

My question is....Will my performance on the slope really be inhibited by having a softer boot? Should I return the boots I have, suck it up, and get a boot with a higher flex index? Seems to me, all ski boots in the 120-130 range are 650 and up.

Discuss
Dec 9 2013 7:30PM
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will_powder
Posts: 3194 - Karma: 5,445
I've never done it myself, but I've heard you can drill additional rivets in the spine that runs up the cuff to stiffen the boot on the cheap. A fitter in your area might be able to do that..?

I'd say ride em, if you're overflexing/finding yourself held back by the boots, then worry about it. Who cares what some guy on the internet said is the right flex, it's your boot.
Dec 9 2013 7:41PM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
True dat. But its not just one person, my searching has led me to believe that a 90 flex is to soft for my weight....
Dec 9 2013 7:50PM
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Cotter
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 849
My Dalbello Krypton Rampages have a flex of 120 and were 450. 90 does seem pretty soft, especially for someone at 190lbs
Dec 9 2013 7:56PM
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Park.
Posts: 2480 - Karma: 4,582
get a booster strap ($50) and buckle your top buckles down really tightly and the amount of play in your boots will dissapear, allowing less leverage for you to flex the boot, therefor making them stiffer. i mean You could always just get a few year old race boot or freeride boot ORRR just get Rossi boots (park atleast). cheap as fuck and still sick. there are always options they are just not as easy to find.
Dec 9 2013 8:05PM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
Hmm. Interesting

I mean, I can be the only skiier out there, who has had to settle for a boot with a soft flex, because they could not afford more expensive, stiffer boots
Dec 9 2013 8:18PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7495 - Karma: 11,554
You can make them slightly stiffer, but you are very likely to overpower a 90 flex boot at 190 pounds. I am 175 and ski a 120 w/power wraps and WC booster strap.

If you want to stiffen up the boot, get a WC Booster Strap and a Pro Wrap/ZipFit WC liner. However, I believe Intuitions cost $100+ and Zipfits cost $200+. So, at that price range, you could buy the new boot.
Dec 9 2013 8:41PM
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TotalNan
Posts: 147 - Karma: 339
I'm 185 and I ride a 100 flex boot (Salomon x max 100) which retail for $500. Its definitely stiff enough for me and I charge the mtn pretty hard but stiffness ratings are pretty subjective across brands. I don't believe there is actually like a set scale to measure stiffness. Put em on and click into your skis in your  living room and see how they feel when you flex them. But just remember they will soften up as they get broken in
Dec 9 2013 8:50PM
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D34DM0053
Posts: 150 - Karma: 604
I'm currently 225 and I'm on Dalbello Boss's and I love them. All I've had before these are rentals and am in love when I have them set to 110 flex
Dec 9 2013 10:34PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7495 - Karma: 11,554
What they have said is true.

There is no standard flex rating across companies, so a 120 for some may be a 100 or 130 for others. I personally ski the Tecnica Cochise Light so its a comparable flex to yours.

Dont flex boot indoors, flex them outdoors in the cold if possible. Some plastics stiffen up substantially in the cold (Scarpa Freedom SL for instance). It would be even better if you could ski them for a day, but I doubt shops would take them back then.

Honestly, do what you feel is best. It is possible to find older Cochise models with a stiffer flex online for cheap as well if you love their fit.
Dec 9 2013 10:49PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
Choosing the correct flex in a ski boot boils down to the following: your ankle mobility, your weight, and what you have been used to skiing in the past. These are the 3 key ingredients to having a boot that works well for you. As far as your ankle mobility, we have no idea (that's one of the things a good boot-fitter will asses) but we do know your weight, which is not light. On paper, you would not be a good candidate for a 90 flex boot, especially considering that 120-130 flex boots are not race flexes at all (those go up to 170).

Part of what you will find out (and hopefully not too late) is that once you click into your bindings on a ski of that size, you will absolutely know if your boot is too soft or just right. Flexing a boot in a store is one thing, but once you click into a ski is an entirely different story and at speeds on a big ski in variable condition snow, your boot will most likely turn to mush under a guy who weighs 190lbs.

Your boot is the most important part of your gear selection- do not sacrifice the fit and performance of the boot to save a couple of hundred bucks. These boots will last you for years, so think about it like that and the investment becomes more tolerable. I would go back to the shop you bought them from and ask to try on the 120/130 model of the same last width. Compare the flexes and see if you can still properly flex the stiffer boots. If you can flex them properly, then the 90 is without a doubt too soft for you and a complete waste of your time, money, and lost enjoyment on the hill.
Dec 10 2013 2:45AM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
How do you determine how much flex is to much? How do you determine, how much ankle flex is to much?
Dec 10 2013 8:35AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
These are things a good boot fitter can determin for you. They can measure your flex but also take into account foot stability and Achilles tightness which also both have a role to play in ankle flex. With this and also seeing you in a boot the fitter is able to best advise what you need. Unfortunately you just need to find someone with some experience to fit you up.
Dec 10 2013 9:01AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
Ankle flexibility tests are best done by someone who knows what they are looking for- lots of variables at play. But generally, if you stand up with a slight bend in your knees (without shoes on), keep your feet flat on the floor, how far forward can you flex at the ankle before your heels lift up? Can your knees get over your toes? Or do they stop short of your toes? Or do they continue past your toes?

Stopping short of your toes means you have a limited range of motion and you should generally be in stiffer boots (but a stiffness you can still flex). If your knees get to your toes but no further, then you cannot be in a boot that is too soft for you. If your knees go past your toes, then you can be in a soft or stiff boot- it doesn't really matter based on your flexibility. My knees can go past my toes and while I can ski a soft boot, I would personally much rather be in a responsive, stiffer, more efficient boot.

In terms of defining "how much flex is too much?", hop into your boots, buckle them up and flex forward. If you can flex the boot so much that the cuff comes in contact with instep buckle or the lower shell is bellowing out like crazy, then the boot is far too soft. If you can't even move the cuff and are not able to get your knees over your toes, then the boot is too stiff. An ideal amount of flex is one that allows you to get your knees over your toes but is not so soft that the lower shell bellows out or you cause the cuff to come into contact with the shell buckles.
Dec 10 2013 9:01AM
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Ghini
Posts: 2262 - Karma: 3,004
Always nice to read your posts. I am in the market for a stiff touring boot. On TGR I've read that the Waymaker Carbon (listed as a 130 flex) is not stiff at all? Can you tell me more about that?
Dec 10 2013 9:05AM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
Wow, I am impressed.

I have today off from work, gonna head over to the shop now, my bindings are being fitted. Gonna try on both the 110 and 120 flex and see how they feel. Honestly dont feel that at this time I could afford to go beyond a 110 flex, but even if I did that, and it turned out I needed a stiffer boot, I would be closer to where I need to be

Thanks for the help


Dec 10 2013 9:45AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
Thanks man. Honestly, I would have you try them on and see for yourself. There are reviews that say it is just as stiff as our Redster Pro 130 and people like marshalolson on TGR who are convinced it is softer.

There is no standardized flex rating across the boot brands, and unfortunately i don't think there ever will be. Materials, wall thicknesses, and companies' strategies are far too different to make that happen. At least here at Atomic we ski and machine test all of our flexes and try to align them as best as possible. It's not perfect but we are for sure better aligned than other brands out there. And I can tell you we very competitive with other 130 walk mode boots on the market.

Also, for some reason, many people have it in their head that a 130 boot needs to be super super stiff, as if 130 is the stiffest a boot can be, and this is simply wrong. Our "commercial" flex scale goes up to 170, so when you view it in this perspective our 130 is right in line with where our 170 (stiffest commercially available boot) is at. 130 should for sure be on the stiffer side of things, but it should not feel like cement brick.
Dec 10 2013 9:46AM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
Im sorry, but by "bellowing" you mean the plastic on the lower cuff of the boot expanding outward?
Dec 10 2013 10:28AM
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Ghini
Posts: 2262 - Karma: 3,004
Yeah I was surprised to read that. I have had Atomic race boots in the past, only reason I got rid of them was because I wanted a walk mode for touring.
Did Atomic think about soles like the K2 Pinacle? With DIN soles but with tech inserts? Why not go that way? Or offer those type of soles? I would love to go back to Atomic boots but those soles would be really handy for me..
Dec 10 2013 10:32AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
Yep- the sides of the shell will noticeably expand when a boot is too soft. A little is ok, and to be expected, but when a boot is too soft it is really noticeable.
Dec 10 2013 12:11PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
Of course we did, and so did every other boot manufacturer. The problem is not that we didn't think about it, but that the TUV (the safety organization that certifies that a design is within the norm) has always said you can't put an 'interference" in the DIN zones of the heel and the toe of the boot. This is why every manufacturer has always made swappable norm grip pads. K2 put tech inserts in their DIN area and as far as I am aware they lack the TUV safety seal of approval because I haven't seen it anywhere on their product or catalog or website.
Dec 10 2013 12:18PM
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Ghini
Posts: 2262 - Karma: 3,004
That explains a lot..thanks!
Dec 10 2013 12:23PM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
Onenerdykid. How do you feel a boot with a flex of 110 in this instance? At this time, I honestly cant afford to go up to a 120 flex boot. But a 110, at around $550 would be doable. I understand that even a 110 would still be a bit soft, but at least it would be close to where i need to be, and certainly offer more responsiveness than a 90
Dec 10 2013 12:24PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7495 - Karma: 11,554
Add a WC booster strap, you should be $$$ at 110. 110-120 isnt a huge jump, and the WC booster strap will help. If you still find it too flexible, a stiffer liner should be next.
Dec 10 2013 12:37PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
Without seeing how you flex the 90 it is hard to gauge, but if you really are over flexing the 90 the 110 will for sure be a better step in the right direction. And as mentioned, you could change out the power strap for a stiffer option, which will help, as will putting in a firmer Intuition liner. But those would be changes to make down the road.
Dec 10 2013 12:42PM
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rdlynch2
Posts: 11 - Karma: 34
went back to the shop, tried on the 110 and the 90 simultaneously.

Holy shit, the 110 is a much more comfortable boot! The liner is SOO much nicer and I can certainly notice the difference btw the 2 in regards to stiffness. With the 110, I am able to get my knees past my toes. I consider myself to be a very flexible person. I tried what you recommended earlier and was more than able to push my knees past my toes, without the heel of my foot coming up. The heel of my foot did not seem to come up at all when I flexed forward, where as with the 90 it seemed to (a bit at least).

The strap on the 110 functions as a 4th buckle, which is a feature the 90 does not have. Seems to allow you to tighten up the cuff significantly, which I think will also help with the stiffness.
Dec 10 2013 12:53PM
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Dr.Dickless
Posts: 2620 - Karma: 1,392
Boot flex is tricky, it's not standardized between manufacturers, or even between models within a manufacturers line. A 120 from Nordicas is not even close to a Dalbello 120 etc. if you like the feel and fit of the boot that is the most important thing. Try them out and see if you have any problems, but I rode 80 flex boots for years in all types of conditions and skis and I never noticed them over flexing, it's really gonna be up to your judgement
Dec 10 2013 1:13PM
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s-hand
Posts: 1334 - Karma: 1,800
Can someone tell me about rivets? My boots (Tecnica Mach1 130 mv) have 2 rivets in the spine. If i remove one or both of these rivets, how much does the flex change?
Jan 19 2016 8:27AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
s-handCan someone tell me about rivets? My boots (Tecnica Mach1 130 mv) have 2 rivets in the spine. If i remove one or both of these rivets, how much does the flex change?


I think you mean screws. You can remove the top screw and it softens the boot by about 10 flex points. Do not remove both, then the cuff will freely pivot forward and you will lose tons of performance. If you remove the top screw and the boot is still too stiff, then you want to have the shell softened by a boot-fitter who can judge how much you need.
Jan 19 2016 8:49AM
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RDem
Posts: 646 - Karma: 183
onenerdykidI think you mean screws. You can remove the top screw and it softens the boot by about 10 flex points. Do not remove both, then the cuff will freely pivot forward and you will lose tons of performance. If you remove the top screw and the boot is still too stiff, then you want to have the shell softened by a boot-fitter who can judge how much you need.


I have the Ghost 100 boot from Salomon and it came with a screw on each boot and another hole above it. However, the boot didn't come with any other screws. Do I just move the one screw up to stiffen it?
Jan 19 2016 10:21AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,977
RDemI have the Ghost 100 boot from Salomon and it came with a screw on each boot and another hole above it. However, the boot didn't come with any other screws. Do I just move the one screw up to stiffen it?


Nope, you go to the hardware store and find the same size screw & t-nut (or ask your boot-fitter to dig some up), have your boot-fitter drill a hole through the cuff & shell and put the t-nut & screw in the new hole. Good to go.
Jan 19 2016 10:24AM
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s-hand
Posts: 1334 - Karma: 1,800
onenerdykidI think you mean screws. You can remove the top screw and it softens the boot by about 10 flex points. Do not remove both, then the cuff will freely pivot forward and you will lose tons of performance. If you remove the top screw and the boot is still too stiff, then you want to have the shell softened by a boot-fitter who can judge how much you need.


Thanks man.
Jan 19 2016 5:00PM
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CaptainSpeke14
Posts: 32 - Karma: 20
Where can I find the flex on my boots? I'm 150 5"9 and rock a older pair of Rossingol Soft boots. At the time I got them because I thought they looked cool. But I think I may need a softer flex but I don't know how or where to find the flex rating. Could someone help?
Jan 22 2016 1:48PM
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Crispy.
Posts: 6116 - Karma: 7,712
Did not read the replies in the thread, but I'd say if you're going to be doing a fair amount of all mountain skiing and are a good skier you will want a stiffer flex for sure (either with new boots or some of the modifications discussed above). If you're just going to be in the park it won't matter. Reason I say this is I have 90 flex boots, am 6'2" 190lbs, and pretty much only ride park in the midwest. They're wonderful for the park, but on my trip out west this year when I was ripping groomers and other terrain I would constant flex them out which sucks because it is painful and you lose control.
Jan 22 2016 4:31PM
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gnar_whal
Posts: 1286 - Karma: 3,788
Crispy.Did not read the replies in the thread, but I'd say if you're going to be doing a fair amount of all mountain skiing and are a good skier you will want a stiffer flex for sure (either with new boots or some of the modifications discussed above). If you're just going to be in the park it won't matter. Reason I say this is I have 90 flex boots, am 6'2" 190lbs, and pretty much only ride park in the midwest. They're wonderful for the park, but on my trip out west this year when I was ripping groomers and other terrain I would constant flex them out which sucks because it is painful and you lose control.


This is a 3 year old thread
Jan 22 2016 4:59PM
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DBack1321
Posts: 410 - Karma: 485
CaptainSpeke14Where can I find the flex on my boots? I'm 150 5"9 and rock a older pair of Rossingol Soft boots. At the time I got them because I thought they looked cool. But I think I may need a softer flex but I don't know how or where to find the flex rating. Could someone help?


It's usually printed on the boot, but if not just google your boot and match them up. Do you constantly find yourself in the backseat? If yes, not to be an ass, is it the boots or because you don't properly know how to get your weight forward?
Jan 22 2016 8:19PM
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CaptainSpeke14
Posts: 32 - Karma: 20
DBack1321It's usually printed on the boot, but if not just google your boot and match them up. Do you constantly find yourself in the backseat? If yes, not to be an ass, is it the boots or because you don't properly know how to get your weight forward?


I think I'm just lazy on working to get my wait forward. Also where I ski a lot we don't have a traditional park, and all these these snowboarders make these crappy jumps, I have been taught by by a pro. So they kick you straight up and not forward.
Jan 24 2016 3:37PM
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sammy_JJ
Posts: 257 - Karma: 115
will_powderI've never done it myself, but I've heard you can drill additional rivets in the spine that runs up the cuff to stiffen the boot on the cheap. A fitter in your area might be able to do that..?

I'd say ride em, if you're overflexing/finding yourself held back by the boots, then worry about it. Who cares what some guy on the internet said is the right flex, it's your boot.


You can't do that to Cochise because of the walk mode. Sounds like a cochise 120 might be a better fit for your weight. Especially as the liner and boot breaks in.
Jan 25 2016 1:14AM
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clorox
Posts: 1728 - Karma: 4,863
I believe from personal use that a boot should match the stiffness of the ski. Last year I was on 120 flex boots with max flex stiffeners. This year I moved to the B Dog, so I moved the stiffeners to the lower setting. My philosophy on it is that the stiffness of the boot should be able to control the ski and to not get kicked around. A super soft boot on an insanely stiff ski won't yield for any control. Hope this helps.
Jan 25 2016 2:01PM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
GNARLY_BARLEYI believe from personal use that a boot should match the stiffness of the ski. Last year I was on 120 flex boots with max flex stiffeners. This year I moved to the B Dog, so I moved the stiffeners to the lower setting. My philosophy on it is that the stiffness of the boot should be able to control the ski and to not get kicked around. A super soft boot on an insanely stiff ski won't yield for any control. Hope this helps.


Pretty stupid if you ask me. Use waht works well in terms of boots for you. I'm a very aggressive skier (Race background)...I love stiff boots and the performance associated with them.

I don't really ride noodly skis ever but the few times I have I couldn't imagine using them on a softer boot...no control whats so ever
Jan 25 2016 2:37PM
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clorox
Posts: 1728 - Karma: 4,863
KravtZPretty stupid if you ask me. Use waht works well in terms of boots for you. I'm a very aggressive skier (Race background)...I love stiff boots and the performance associated with them.

I don't really ride noodly skis ever but the few times I have I couldn't imagine using them on a softer boot...no control whats so ever


Which is why I said personal preference. I like to have a much stiffer boot than most but I couldn't imagine using soft boots with stiff skis.
Jan 25 2016 2:41PM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
GNARLY_BARLEYWhich is why I said personal preference. I like to have a much stiffer boot than most but I couldn't imagine using soft boots with stiff skis.


Soft boots are for beginners or people who suck and get suckered into the marketing of a "park boot" or the cool design on a 90 flex boot or whatever and couldn't ski aggressive enough to even know the difference between a 130 and a 80. Bottom line. You won't find pro's riding a 80 flex boot..chances are they are on a 115+.
Jan 25 2016 2:56PM
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ggfski42
Posts: 651 - Karma: 700
I weigh about 10lbs lighter than you, and I got the cochise 130 pro's this year. I love them and they are exactly what i wanted in terms of boot stiffness. at first I was worried that they would be too stiff for my weight, but it just took some getting used to.
Jan 26 2016 1:46PM
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clorox
Posts: 1728 - Karma: 4,863
KravtZSoft boots are for beginners or people who suck and get suckered into the marketing of a "park boot" or the cool design on a 90 flex boot or whatever and couldn't ski aggressive enough to even know the difference between a 130 and a 80. Bottom line. You won't find pro's riding a 80 flex boot..chances are they are on a 115+.


My rep would only give me 100 flexes because he said I don't need a stiff boot, and when he finally got me 120 flexes, I put the stiffeners in. Riding soft boots feels like using sneakers to me.
Jan 26 2016 7:33PM
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