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Get educated on outerwear technology

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kslattery
Posts: 196 - Karma: 158
Check out these articles written by Lethal Descent Co Owner Sam Shaheen. They are extremely comprehensive and if you're not careful you might learn a thing or two.



These range from the history of early types of outerwear all the way to how current outerwear technologies function and compare

Enjoy!
Apr 26 2013 3:53PM
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jca
Posts: 4172 - Karma: 6,310
awesome articles, well worth the read for anyone who isn't fixated on zip off sleeves and zipper lengths.
Apr 26 2013 11:15PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
"there is no such thing being more dry. There is very little advantage in a 20,000mm waterproof membrane compared to a 10,000mm rated membrane"

Spoken like someone who has never ridden in the PNW!

Interesting articles still +k
Apr 26 2013 11:30PM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,411
Aha awesome articles. I read through these some time last year, and when I seen this thread they were instantly what I thought of. Solid education in technical outerwear forsure.
Apr 26 2013 11:44PM
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Stose
Posts: 7109 - Karma: 4,123
Did you even read the article?
Apr 27 2013 2:27PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
Yes I did.

Have you done much skiing in the rain? There is HUGE difference between fabrics rated 10k and those rated 20k+. Come ski in the PNW and then tell me I'm wrong.
Apr 27 2013 11:41PM
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bighomieflock
Posts: 2040 - Karma: 2,445
facepalm
Apr 28 2013 1:06AM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
This is the bit of false logic I'm picking on, directly from the article:


Consider:

• a 10,000mm hydrostatic water column rating equates to about 14psi

• the hardest wind-driven rain only exerts about 2psi

Conclusion:

• you don’t need a 20,000mm membrane to stay dry.


There are far more forces at play on your garment than just the rain falling. Your shit gets wet, and then you move around and put pressure on the wetted out fabric. Sitting down on the chairlift, wiping out, resting your arms on your legs on the lift ride, hell even just moving your arms around all put far more than a couple PSI's worth in pressure on your laminates.

I have a closetful of sub-20k outwear that I have at one point or another ridden in the rain, and I absolutely get wet through them. On the other hand, I've spent full days happily riding around in heavy downpours in goretex and other high end laminates, and come away bone dry. At my local mountain, many of the park kids will ride in garbage bags with arm holes cut into them, because their 10k rated gear just can't handle being in the rain.

Apr 28 2013 1:34AM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,411
I'd have to take her 'side' on this one guys, although I live in a very dry climate where warmth is the main factor I look for in outerwear so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I do feel that the reality is, is that if your out digging a pit, kneeling down to get something out of a pack, sitting on a wet chair, skiing through damp and heavy snow, or taking a heavy bail there has to be the opportunity for a water droplet to exert that 14Psi threshold of 10K outerwear and allow itself to pass through the membrane.

The column test is just that. A lab test to check a materials standard under perfect conditions. And if I'm completely wrong on all of this and there is certainly the possibility of that happening; then there must be another set of underlying advantages to 20K outerwear over 10K outerwear because Lethal Descent is using a 25K membrane, and as stated in the OP, Sam who works for them, wrote this article.
Apr 28 2013 2:23AM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Numbers don't mean a whole lot. A good jacket rated at 10K performs better than a shitty one rated at 20K.
Apr 28 2013 3:51AM
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shr@gler
Posts: 1233 - Karma: 912
the weak points are the seams. buy a seam sealed jacket.
Apr 28 2013 4:05AM
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Park.
Posts: 2480 - Karma: 4,582
this. there is no universal method for waterproof/breatheability rating. lets just say that brand X does a waterproof test where the water is only raining on you and you stay dry up untill 20k. then they try splashing high amount of water on the jacket and it gets wet at about 5k. brands dont have to choose the worst ratings they find and can use the best to make the product look better. I may be wrong, so dont take my word for it, but I have used orage equipment and it kept me dry on slushy days even with an 8k rating for both. I am guessing that Orage actually used the worst test results so you get a realistic idea of how your equipment performs. I mean, it would make more sense as to why a 5k jacket is $200.
Apr 28 2013 10:12AM
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linus_deboss
Posts: 1036 - Karma: 1,914
or for someone who also like long clothing and vests but is about to study chemistry. lol don't be such a stereotypist, pretty close to being racist haha
Apr 28 2013 10:47AM
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Session
Posts: 5389 - Karma: 22,281
I think one thing to take in to account is that most people aren't going to pay 300-400 dollars on a 10k rated garment, so manufacturers are not going to put the money in to the extra details needed to keep dry.

I'm sure a 10k rated membrane would work fine if the seams were taped and a top notch(or any) waterproofing was utilized.

Technically the rating is just for the fabric/membrane used in the construction. But as a consumer I look at the numbers as the overall waterproofness of the garment.

I'm interested to see what Saga does with their 3L. If it will be worthy of the moniker. In the end it doesn't matter what materials you use. Performance is in the deatils.
Apr 28 2013 10:57AM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,411
I also think we've all disregarded the DWR here, myself included. It eve says in the article, that the DWR keeps the outer nylon layer from getting wetted out, which also retains a jackets breathability. Let the nylon outer layer get wet --> Lose breathability --> Trap sweat vapor inside of the shell --> Get feeling soaked by your own vapor on the inside, and jacket feels wet on the outside.
Apr 28 2013 11:36AM
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Session
Posts: 5389 - Karma: 22,281
FWIW I meant to include DWR in my theory of 10k vs 20k garment quality.
Apr 28 2013 12:25PM
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kslattery
Posts: 196 - Karma: 158
Solid point. The DWR is often the most important factor to a garment's integrity. Poor DWR ---> poor waterproofing, and that all comes down to each individual factory
May 1 2013 12:32AM
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LethalDescent
Posts: 275 - Karma: 939
Man, I was reading through this thread thinking I would have to set you guys straight. But of course you all figured it out in the end.

Yes, there is a huge difference between DWR quality and hydrostatic pressure (ie, waterproof) rating. Companies often use 5k/10k/20k as quality benchmarks more than anything else. There is often little direct correlation between these ratings and actual laminate performance (fabric performance is a different story...)

Glad you guys are reading my articles. Feel free to post any questions here and I can try to help out.
May 1 2013 11:16AM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Wow, my respect for LDC just grew ten times knowing you're the author of those Blister pieces. I'm seriously tempted by an Eagle jacket if I have the cash towards next winter. Could you post garment chest measurements for each size? The long & slim concept is excellent: better athletic fit for those of us that are actually built like skiers (not like mainstream society where "XL" means 5ft10 and 300lbs), or a crazy long fit for people who just want a long coat.
May 1 2013 6:52PM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
nothing like an ultra thin ultra lightweight 30,000 + rated goretex proshell, nothing.

kids these days just buy new outerwear every year, and dont give a damn about anything else. a coat you put 30 days in before you buy the latest greatest style better keep you dry no matter the mm rating.

as for me ive had the same goretex jacket for probably 500 ski days and my pants i just changed out this year on goretex's warranty after about 400 days on the last pair.
May 2 2013 12:04PM
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