Concealed Carry

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you may drive a pickup and shoot guns, but you still seem to have a very emotionally based opinion on concealed weapons. i dont think you understand the culture of these people who carry, its not like they are trigger happy paranoid rednecks looking for any excuse to carry and use a gun. to most of them its just another tool. they dont look at guns like its some dangerous killing object, just something they grew up with, using every day, always having one around. so it makes more sense to carry it every day, than just carry it when you think you might need it. I guarantee that almost anybody that carries daily isnt carrying because they are scared of being mugged on a daily basis, but because its simply smarter to have it on you all the time and be completely used to it being there.

and as far as your dad growing up in South Africa, if im not mistaken they have THE highest gun crime rate in the world, or atleast one of the highest. yet very strict gun control.. i know two people very well from south africa that came here for school, and they are scared shitless of guns, and say the culture there is pretty "gun scared". I agree that you need to use your head to survive most dangerous areas/encounters. but you cant always avoid danger, and when you are completely helpless, and reasoning didnt work, i sure as shit would want a gun on me for that moment.

BTW, i just found this..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/murders-by-concealed-hand_b_632278.html

so 175 deaths since 2007 by a concealed carry permit holder, half of which were people that were already convicted. thats nothing considering the number of gun deaths we have per year. especially when you consider how many crimes they stop.

its obvious that its not a problem. the media and the ignorant/emotional liberals are not looking at the real problems, just looking at what scares them and throwing laws in place to say they did something. they wont look at the actual problem because it not PC and/or its a hard problem to correct. they wouldnt be putting all their attention to assault rifles and CCW holders, both of which combined account for less than 2% of gun related death, if they actually wanted to, or knew how to reduce crime.

shit, more people are beaten to death each year, more people are stabbed to death each year than assault rifles and CCW's combined. yet the entire nation is in flip shit mode over assault rifles and CCW's for no reason other than a complete lack of any common sense.

its just completely fucking retarded. if guns make you uncomfortable, fine dont own one, but dont go throwing laws in place to restrict something you know absolutely nothing about, its just fucked up that these are the people who have the power to give and take away our rights.

Apr 5 2013 1:16PM

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howlongcanausern

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yea but this thread really shows which users have superiority complexes

Apr 5 2013 1:18PM

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corona

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how many crimes do they stop?

Apr 5 2013 1:19PM

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nice completely uneducated opinion.

Apr 5 2013 1:19PM

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corona

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nice completely uneducated opinion.

Apr 5 2013 1:20PM

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LoathesRaisins

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So, when you have your CCP, are you allowed to shoot the firearm? Where I live, I used to be able to carry a long gun down the street, but if you shot it, you'd go to jail.

Apr 5 2013 1:26PM

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ill try to find the other source i read a couple weeks ago, citing how many crimes it stopped by the specific crime, robbery, violent, rape, etc.. but this will do for now.

http://marquettetribune.org/2012/02/14/news/concealed-carry-prevents-more-crime-than-it-creates-study-says/

and thats in DC alone.

when you have 175 ccw murders over the period of 6 years, so around 30 a year. yet stop 5000 crimes in one city alone over 8 years, any hint of common sens would tell you that if anything CCWs are helping the problem, not creating one.

in a nation where the huge majority of gun murders are committed by gangs and career criminals, it only makes sense to have the public armed, because its clearly not the average joe with a CCW who's contributing anything to our ridiculous numbers.

Apr 5 2013 1:26PM

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Crazy Fool

Open carry is different. And yea, shooting a gun where youre not supposed to will land you in jail, as it should

Apr 5 2013 1:37PM

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shocker611

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yeah... do you honestly think that you can just walk down the street poppin shots off?

Apr 5 2013 3:20PM

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zwiefel12

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I carry IWB and sometimes I do have athletic shorts on, I just tighten up the drawsting and it works pretty well ha. Not the mose ideal but if im just out and about for a few it's fine. I carry appendix btw. Kahr cm9 super light which I think helps.

Apr 5 2013 3:21PM

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first of all she wasn't shot in the face. If you want to take measures to protect yourself, you can stay inside with your gun.

the only reason I told you guys that was because you thought I was basing my opinion on what I hear on TV. I wanted to let you know that because pro-gun people often use "what if" or other scare tactics to try and justify their argument. I might not have been exposed to much of this, but my family certainly has and they share similar opinions to myself.

Apr 5 2013 4:44PM

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^pro gun people? Like yourself? Arent you just anti concealed carry?

Apr 5 2013 4:47PM

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yes. they do.

south africa has a similar gun culture to the usa. there are many guns, and many people who want to carry them for protection. The thing about south africa is that they have a massive gap between racial/economic classes. That sounds pretty damn familiar to what is happening in the USA. yet most people who are pro-gun are also anti-immigration, tough on gangs, etc. The economic separation, and the gun culture, are the major underlying causes of gun violence in south africa and the USA mirrors that albeit less extreme.

BUT I think it's funny that you use the strict gun control and highest gun violence rates as part of your argument. Because south africa is a perfect example of how strict gun control DECREASES gun violence. Since strict control on handguns was implemented in south africa, the gun homicide rate has dropped by almost 25%. So your logic that gun control = high gun violence is flawed. You need to look at the effects of gun control vs gun violence over time.

Apr 5 2013 4:52PM

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I would rather have handguns as restricted weapons. I just think if that is not an option, then open carrying is a far better option. I'm not saying we need to get rid of all guns. I wouldn't want them to take shotguns away from me!

Apr 5 2013 4:56PM

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guns don't make me uncomfortable and I do own one. I've been around guns my whole life, I have been educated on how to use them, and I've shot many guns in my life.

I just don't think that anyone should have the right to walk around with a concealed gun. That is what breeds a gun culture like you see in America.

Gun ownership should not be an inherent right. You know you live in a fucked up country when owning a gun is a right, but universal health care is not.

Apr 5 2013 5:06PM

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zwiefel12

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Ive been reading and following along and I just want to make sure im understanding your argument. You are fine with Open carry not Concealed carry? And you think people carry cause they are paranoid? and you think that there are more chaces of deaths and shootings from CWP holders because they are carrying vs just letting the crime happen? also you had close family that has been shot and you think they would not have been able to protect/savie themselves if they had a gun and the situation would have been worse?

Im just trying to make sure im following what youre saying. Please correct anything I wrote if that is incorrect.

Apr 5 2013 5:16PM

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no handguns> open carry > concealed

yes people carry because they are paranoid. at least to some extent. If you weren't scared that you would need it you wouldn't carry it.

Yes there is a greater chance of someone dying if someone pulls out a gun in self defense.

i've had family killed by guns. not close to me personally because they died when I was young. maybe a gun would have saved her. likely not.

Either way bad stuff happens sometimes and the solution is not more guns, it's less guns. Eventually it will make it tougher for criminals to get ahold of guns as well.

Apr 5 2013 6:15PM

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powderdrunkie

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Would you say that creating a safety/food storage in preparation for a natural disaster is paranoia?

Apr 5 2013 7:46PM

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Chicken- would you say that stitching a condom to the inside of your asshole so that when you get raped you dont get the aids is being paranoid?

Apr 5 2013 7:51PM

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this is what ive been explaining the whole time, it is NOT our gun culture that is the problem. (im assuming by gun culture you mean gun loving republicans/rednecks, CCW holders etc..) like ive said before its our gang/inner city crime problems that are 80% of the problem. i still have no idea why you and the rest of the uneducated liberals think its the guys who make up the smallest fraction of a fraction of gun crime are the problem and why the gangs are not. please explain that to me.

the problem is so obviously, gangs, career criminals, inner city crime, the drug trade, mexican gangs, the simple fact that we are neighbors with mexico, and like you said the economic/cultural separation, especially in inner cities, are all the major factors. and unfortunately neither side, democratic or republican, is helping with that, our current president is definitely contributing to the problem..

and i quite like having the right to own a gun and not having universal healthcare, personally, i dont believe its a right, i think our healthcare could definitely use reform, but obamacare is a fucking joke. but seriously, lets not make this a healthcare debate as well...

Apr 5 2013 8:23PM

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south africa ranks around 50th in gun ownership, yet has one of the highest crime rates, the US is #1 in gun ownership but ranks like 11th. our population is about 6x as much as south africa yet we have about the same number of deaths..

and as far as crime rates going down, what about chicago with the strictest gun laws in the nation also having the most gun crime? or florida and, i believe, arizona? who relaxed their concealed carry laws, CCW's shot up, and crime rates dropped?

you can argue more guns= less crime and the other way around all you want. but really i think the largest factors are more cultural. and not our "gun culture" because as i already explained, its not the gun loving republicans, AR owners, CCW holders etc.. that are the problem. its gang, inner city, and drug trade culture that are the cultural problem.

Apr 5 2013 8:34PM

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^exactly. We arent the problem. It is just easy to scapegoat us because we are the ones who are vocal about our rights. Its much more difficult to put the blame on a faceless culture of gang violence that probably has absolutely no idea of any gun laws or current events. They wont defend their right to have a gun because they dont give a shit about rights, we do.

Apr 5 2013 8:49PM

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Look at it this way, if you own a handgun and are going to cause a crime via concealing a handgun you are breaking the law. Why would you actively take a weapons safety training course and pay your fees only to use that permit to break the law? Makes no sense. If someone is going to commit a crime they are going to conceal that handgun without a legal license to do so. Therefore those individuals who choose to go through the proper training to legally conceal a handgun are your law abiding citizens who are trying to defend themselves against the gangbangers who are concealing their arms illegally. Simple common sense would tell you that I don't see how you can make a connection that law abiding citizens are a part of any problems.

Why shouldn't owning guns be a right? Why should the government have a monopoly on firearms? Aren't they the same organization who is suppose to be serving WE THE PEOPLE? Look at it this way when crime occurs, people call the people who have guns (the police) to come to protect them. Using logic, which you do not seem to possess, why not bypass that whole 911 call and take responsibility for my own safety by owning a firearm. If you do not want to own a firearm that's fine, dont! But just because you might not like guns don't limit my ability to do so.

Apr 6 2013 5:05PM

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this is one of the only arguments that this side makes.

all you need to know is that less guns creates less gun crime. chicago is not a fair counterexample. You can drive 5 mins out of chicago and buy firearms.

On a large scale, and over time, restricting guns will lead to less gun violence. America is not some special case. It will eventually happen there as well.

Apr 6 2013 5:49PM

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Barefootin_Fiend

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how exactly do you propose we restrict the 300+ million guns that are already in the USA? "restricted" or not, the guns are here and they aren't going anywhere no matter what the law states.

Apr 6 2013 6:26PM

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Really? By that logic the United States should have the highest gun homicide rate because we have the highest gun ownership. We rank 28th in the world in gun homicide despite having the highest gun ownership.

Why part of restricting guns gives people like you such a hard on? I am more concerned with violent crime rates not gun violence. If someone is going to kill me I don't care what the means used was, I am still dead regardless. By your logic, banning guns would reduce violent crime but that isn't the case either. Your large scale claims are wrong. Gun stats start at 1:00

Apr 6 2013 6:32PM

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are you serious?

you can't just conclude that this means there is no relationship.

didn't you see what I posted when someone said south africa has high gun violence strict gun laws? The statement in itself is true but that doesn't make it an argument against gun control. In fact south africa is a good example of how gun violence has decreased after restrictions.

If you look at chicago, the main source of guns used in gun crimes is from nearby GUN SHOPS. Criminals can get ahold of guns from the black market, but they can also walk into a store and buy one. And that's what the majority of them do.

Basically if you want to talk about gun homicide vs gun ownership you can look at ANY graph and you will find a positive correlation.

Apr 6 2013 7:02PM

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deleted5

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Idk it's a very complicated subject and the more research I've been doing more my opinion changes. The only real what if scenario that I know of is I had a roommate in Colorado whose uncle was at a bar some dude wanted to fight him they went outside, and the guy shot him left and was never caught. Now if the uncle also had a gun what it is saved his life probably not. Police officers will tell you most of the time someone who's been shot and killed has a look of surprise on their face because they didn't see it coming, and I also don't know if the firearm was legal or not or where he was when this happened.

Apr 6 2013 9:10PM

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Criminals can't walk into a gander mtn or local shop and buy a handgun. They have to pass a background check and wait for the period to pass (I believe its 2 days).

What other variable isn't being discussed? There are some 60 million gun owners in America and we have a low violent crime rate when looking at our gun ownership vs. the world. I don't see what you think should be done? Restrict or ban all guns? Ok sweet Britain tried that and they have a higher violent crime rate than we do. Forget about just gun violence for once and look at the whole picture. If criminals have harmful intent in their mind whether they have a gun or not isn't going to stop them. Since you can't prevent the crime from happening removing liberties from law abiding citizens and taking away their ability to defend themselves against these criminals doesn't make our world any safer, only more dangerous. Criminals are criminals and will just switch tools plain and simple.

UK (Bans ALL Guns)
2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people
USA
466 violent crimes per 100,000 people

Look at the big picture instead of focusing on just Gun Violence.

Apr 6 2013 10:05PM

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http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

Apr 6 2013 10:09PM

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did you seriously just use "the american civil rights union" to try and prove your point?

the paper that they reference was written by two lawyers in 2007. They didn't even report any statistically significant results.

Why don't you go read the stuff coming out of Harvard right now...

Apr 7 2013 12:15AM

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And you referenced that gun free zones failure to reduce violent crime doesn't count because it is not on a large enough scale? Ya ok, as if the UK wasn't a large enough sample for you.

"The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population)."

^ I don't know how much more black and white it can be for you.

My question for you is why when crimes are committed by criminals do you punish law abiding citizens as a result instead of making punishments on those same criminals more stringent? I should not be held responsible for any criminals actions, I have never committed any crime nor do I plan to.

Apr 7 2013 1:07AM

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aquinn

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looking to get a bursa thunder .380 to carry. Good little gun with good reviews. Basically a walther ppk copy. I fucking hate how derailed threads like this get

Apr 7 2013 1:36AM

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uni-corn

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Why .380?

Apr 7 2013 2:05AM

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skisteep

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I've looked at that gun and i like it, however im looking at the s&w bodyguard .380, its a nice little gun that still feels substantial when you are holding it.

And I agree, I was not trying to start a giant gun rights debate, i was simply asking about people's experiences with the course and what firearm they carry

Apr 7 2013 2:45AM

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are you seriously that fucking stupid? I just told you that your reference was not legit. A paper that two lawyers wrote in 2007 does not make the issue black and white. did you even read the paper?

go find a reference that actually uses statistics.

multiple studies have shown that more guns = more gun crime in developed nations. go search google scholar. They are there.

You aren't going to find good info on the american civil rights union. you fucking retard.

Apr 7 2013 11:39AM

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Post Whore

SHUT THE FUCK UP. If you want to continue to bitch and moan about gun control, make your own fucking thread. You are the worst kind of person.

Apr 7 2013 11:54AM

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dude, I am never going to listen to anything you say on this site. don't even bother.

Apr 7 2013 12:15PM

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Post Whore

Ah, yes. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

Apr 7 2013 12:18PM

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pretty much. your icon makes it easy to skip your posts in most threads. the world is a better place without you.

Apr 7 2013 12:22PM

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Post Whore

Welp, that sucks for the world. I'll be here for a while.

Apr 7 2013 12:23PM

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I already did and it was based on FBI crime statistics and I will give it to you again because you choose to ignore it. Confirmation Bias at its finest.
UK (Bans ALL Guns)
2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people
USA
466 violent crimes per 100,000 people

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/02/u-n-maps-show-u-s-high-in-gun-ownership-low-in-homicides/#axzz2PnyTHuOI

This is a vicious cycle with you people. Why would any news source who is obviously anti-gun post anything with a pro gun statistic? The only places that post any gun findings in favor of individual liberties aren't your MSNBC networks. So I posted another site for you again, it uses UN surveyed numbers. I would be interested to hear your response.

and referring to your post no I did not read it, I would if I had the time I would but I will when the time arises.

Apr 7 2013 2:56PM

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Why would that make someone a pussy? Criminals are going to be armed with some sort of weapon so why not be yourself? I could post a local example of how concealed carry helped stop a woman from being beaten to death but then I would get the whole you can nit pick specific examples argument so I am not even going to go there.

If criminals aren't going to openly carry their weapons then why should we have to as law abiding citizens? Too many people are uneducated and as a CC user myself, I have no intention to use my weapon unless I absolutely have to in order to defend myself. If I open carry I would get asked to leave stores and the cops called on me (I have seen it happen numerous times) . I would open carry if it were more socially acceptable, unfortunately where I live I would get some crazy looks. I probably will open carry at some point just out of curiosity.

This is the kind of things that happens when you open carry

Apr 7 2013 3:15PM

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howlongcanausern

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because gun ownership is a fetish - a power fetish. with a gun, a person feels much more powerful. any normal person doesn't need a gun to feel powerful because they don't need to feel powerful

Apr 7 2013 3:36PM

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You're probably the kid of person who thinks people who drive Ferraris and big SUVs have small penises, right?

Apr 7 2013 3:39PM

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Crazy Fool

I drive a jetta and have a small penis. Take that stereotypes

Apr 7 2013 3:41PM

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A power fetish? I have no such fetish to feel more powerful than anyone else I just don't wanna be a victim of someone who wants to do harm to me. Is it a power fetish for Police to be armed so they can defend them self or others if need be? Is it a power fetish if you live in a remote area where there can be dangerous animals and game that could attack you? All of those are different situations however they all have the common theme of self defense. That does not make me a pussy whatsoever.

Apr 7 2013 3:53PM

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