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KilaTsunami
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America isn't free

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Puns
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free·dom
/ˈfrēdəm/
Noun
  1. The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
  2. Absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.

Someone try to tell me how American citizens are free. It seems so basic to be able to have control over you're body and yet people aren't free to dress or express themselves through hair style, tattoos and still have a job. If you want to smoke weed where it's illegal you can be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be beaten. If you don't want to go to jail because you want to defend your liberties and you fight back, you can be killed. What is the purpose of law? Surely it is to protect your freedom. And yet somewhere along the line it got perverted to conforming everyone to the ideals of the majority, or worse yet, the instrumental desires of the upper class to produce a more efficient working class, as if this was beneficial to anyone but those profiting. How can gay marriage be illegal in a country whose hash tag is freedom? Even if you disagree with it, I think it can be agreed that those people should have the freedom.

I hope people don't hate this thread, I think it is an interesting idea.
Jan 18 2013 7:24PM
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Sno.
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you're assuming that everyone can be satisfied with the same things.
Jan 19 2013 1:23AM
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Puns
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starting companies is great, I just think it's unfair to not pay people the amount of value that they add to the business.

yeah I try to be a little more informed than just saying fuck the system, but I mean a lot of what you're saying applies to me I guess. I don't believe in instant gratification though, I don't think that people should be forced to provide for others too (though I think if not forced, people will provide voluntarily)
I think it's true that unless you are priviledged you will not ever make enough money to start your own business. there isn't equal opportunity. how does it not seem fair to say that if your work makes a company 47 dollars an hour, you should get that. the incentive would be producing the good, and also awesomely higher wages. if there is profit, it makes the people in power, with money and resources work against the majority. this happens because they want people to work as cheaply as possible, and when all the people in power work together to offer people only these shitty wages, they are stuck. think about it; you don't have a choice to get a job or not, if you don;t, you will starve and die. what I want to do is not have people not work, but make the conditions of their work fair and in the interest of the majority. costco for example pays all their workers something like 23 or 27 dollars an hour, and they do fine. all the rich people that trade their stock beg them to pay people less, but they don't because they realize it's more fair and their business does fine.
Jan 19 2013 1:25AM
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I agree with what a lot of you said about not focusing on money to be happy, I think there is truth for that. but at the end of the day, what some people are saying (that qualitiy of life is improved by money) is true. I should also clarify that in my scenario there are no leaders in that, people can provide ideas and lead ideas, but there is no leaders that have more power than anyone, so no one can influence their greed (which I will admit exists) I guess also that right now, some people can't get a job, or some people don't make enough to live off of. This does effect their basic living needs, which is something that everyone wants. oh I will also note that they system I have been describing is anarchy, though it has a pretty poorly represented and negative connotation.

To touch on what you said last, the idea is that you will be able to do things like pursue your passions so openly. if people have similar passions they can support each other to provide services related to them and also just work together to realize their goals.
Jan 19 2013 1:30AM
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Sno.
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You're wrong. My parents started with NOTHING.
Jan 19 2013 1:30AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152

That's having your own business.

If you're working for someone else, there is overhead, if you're saying you make the company 47/hr after overhead, profit and everything else has been taken into consideration, then you probably are making 47/hr.

Jan 19 2013 1:32AM
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Sno.
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source please
Jan 19 2013 1:33AM
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Casey
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Dude you are a moron. Costco hires temps like everyone else to escape labor laws on paying benefits, my brother was a temp there for about 9 months I believe he made 12 dollars an hour.
Jan 19 2013 1:37AM
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Sno.
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and he was a college graduate at that point, too.
Jan 19 2013 1:40AM
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okay I concede. most cases I will say. it's great when people can work through it, but sometimes people can't and it isn't related to the amount of work they do or don't do.

I think the upper class like to point to the one or two succes stories and ignore the fact that most of them came from means and power already.

here are some visual shits

Click for larger image

also I couldn't find the one it was looking
Jan 19 2013 1:42AM
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Sno.
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Look I can't say if my parents are rare or not. All I know is what they've accomplished and that it is therefore possible.
Jan 19 2013 1:45AM
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true that

anyways I'm off to bed. I will admit that I don't know the entire thought proccess behind anarchy but its face value really appeals to me. I like discussing it because I can learn and test the strength of the arguments it makes; thanks errone for arguing with me, for serious.
Jan 19 2013 1:48AM
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SwagtasticWalrus
Posts: 1268 - Karma: 184
Please be a troll
Jan 19 2013 1:55AM
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Jeebus.
Posts: 4904 - Karma: 5,822
I blame the liberals.
Jan 19 2013 1:56AM
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XtRemE11
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people low down in a company do get paid their value, minimum wage is what i deserved to be paid when i worked shit jobs. i have no idea how you can think that if you make a company 47 dollars an hour, you would be able to be paid that much. companies simply wouldnt make enough profit, if any, and wouldnt exist.

and it is not true at all that you need to be privileged to make enough money to start your own business. shit you can make enough off minimum wage to start your own business if you'r smart with your money. and if you dont make enough, thats why you work for minimum wage, so you get the experience to get another job that pays higher, then you get more experience, get another job that pays even better, and so on.
I have a good friend that came here from brazil at 18, had absolutely no money, spoke no english, had like an 8th grade education, and now he's making over 200,000 grand a year at 28. its because he was willing to work the lowest of low jobs to get him on his feet and grow from there. he came from the opposite of privilege.

your little ideal world simply would not work, companies cant pay people who are of little value overly high wages and be successful.

i think its fantastic that there are so many low paying un-appealing jobs, its exactly what Americans need, especially younger Americans, its just unfortunate that this generation feels "above" those kinds of jobs and bitches about not being able to work.
Jan 19 2013 1:58AM
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eheath
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this is all i can think about now

Jan 19 2013 1:58AM
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Sno.
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ahahaha. I don't think he is. But, that being said, he sticks it out longer than most Nsers would.
Jan 19 2013 2:01AM
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naw that's not what it's about. it's not about high or low wage. it's about representative wages. it's about people being paid the value of the good they produce, all costs considered. I just don't see what is unfair or hard to grasp about it. if you do a shit job and no one wants to support the service or good you're providing you will get little, but if you provide a valuable service to society that people have an incentive to support, you will do well. it wouldn't be in the interests of anyone to get paid more than the company should sustain, I think most people are that logical so that wouldn't happen

I agree laziness sucks, why do you think I support laziness? I think I support fairness.
Jan 19 2013 2:07AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
being paid the value of the good they produce? so they make t-shirts, one guy pumps out 100 an hour, each one is worth 10 bucks, should he make 1000 bucks an hour? is that what your saying? no fucking way that would work.

Jan 19 2013 2:19AM
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I just... blrgggggaghuhggg no

they get the amount they contribute WITH factoring in costs of production, no one is saying companies should spend more than they're worth...
Jan 19 2013 2:21AM
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Sno.
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Are you familiar with the concept of economies of scale?

Jan 19 2013 2:22AM
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Puns
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I am now :P why?
Jan 19 2013 2:23AM
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XtRemE11
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so they get paid based on what they contribute, yeah, thats how it works anyway. stocking shelves deserves about minimum wage pay, a manager contributes a hell of a lot more so he should get paid more.
Jan 19 2013 2:25AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
well at the very very least read the wikipedia on "economies of scale" before replying, come on man. read and tell me if it answered any of your questions.
Jan 19 2013 2:26AM
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well no, for that to be true they would have to be paid in representative fractions.
Jan 19 2013 2:26AM
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XtRemE11
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oh. oh my....
Jan 19 2013 2:28AM
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haha don't worry I went straight there before I answered. yeah that could still exist; the expansion can come from the amount of people supporting it by voluntary association couldn't it? more people want bread; more people make bread, more people support the people that make bread, more bread gets made more efficiently right?
Jan 19 2013 2:28AM
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Sno.
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The most effective way of producing more bread more efficiently is by having the capital to produce it. Capital in the form of not just money, but machinery and intelligence.

You say that "more people want bread, more people make bread."

No-- more people want bread, so someone invests in the machinery necessary to be the most efficient breadmaker in the world. They're able to make more bread with less people, and therefore reduce their labor costs, pricing their bread below any of their competitors, making their competitors go out of business....do you see how it works?

This is why people say it "takes money to make money."

Having capital and the money to invest in resources is what puts one business ahead of another.

If I'm missing some major point of your argument, please just give an example. Make up a hypothetical society and explain how it would work in your eyes.

Jan 19 2013 2:34AM
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Sno.
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Have you taken econimics of any kind? General, Macro, or Micro? - genuinely asking, not hating.

Jan 19 2013 2:39AM
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Sno.
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economics*
Jan 19 2013 2:39AM
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Yeah your scenario is what I would use, money as incentive, efficiency of products except... I would take away the profit. Instead the capital would be distributed among the workers for the value of the work they did; being a percentage of total earnings. Because everyones work is not only important, but vital to the production of the good, they should have an equal say about the running of the company and the percentages that are given. In some cases people argue that everyone should make the same percentage of a given production operation and that the incentive is to find a specific production operation that is most desired and efficient and therefore makes the most earnings. This way the investment is the work and time done by the workers so everyone shares the risk together. But I think it's a balance too; with consensus desicion making a decentralized system is the only likely one. So as long as people can get bread, and as long as the people making bread can have their needs met, the system works well imo, and is now fair. Ummm yeah, I think that's it, does that make sense? This is getting easier in my head as I get less high o___o
Jan 19 2013 2:42AM
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lol in my first course right now, valid question. right now we are learning about the flaws of centralized planning, pretty interesting imo and this system fits the criteria for succes in that scenario. my interest more came about from wanting to get the preconceived notions of anarchy being smashing and burning with some more accurate information :P
Jan 19 2013 2:44AM
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Sno.
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I will address this fully later, when I'm not so drunk, but for now-- in your world, what happens to those who are incapable of working (physically or mentally disabled)?

Jan 19 2013 2:48AM
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Sno.
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you taking 101, or a macro/micro specific course?
Jan 19 2013 2:49AM
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lol us discussing drunk and high.. good combo.

Well, that's interesting. The idea is that forced taxation in a fair system is wrong. If you don't agree with this or that project why should you be forced to support it. So, basically if no one helps them, they will die. However, think about your reaction to that. Probably something like...'oh, well, I don't want a system where a lot of people die. I want those people to live..' Just by thinking and reacting like that (which I believe the majority does) it means that those people are very likely to be supported by the people who feel that way. As it is now, we are mostly forced to support those people, though it is not a lot and not very effective. Now take away all profits, spread it out amongst workers, everyone makes more money and have a higher quality of life and more means to support the poor and sick through voluntary association.

The same example is true of innivation. People will say; oh but without profit, where is the incentive to iniviate? By asking that question and implying that a lack of inivation is undersirable, it proves to me that people will still work to innavate, simply because of the positive qualities it offers society. As it is now the need to innovate is fuelled by profit, which sometimes coincides with a positive effect on society, but not nessacarily which I see as a problem
Jan 19 2013 2:54AM
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environmental economic law and policy; pretty general and for hippies I would say, but well rounded and practical imo
Jan 19 2013 2:55AM
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Sno.
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That's cool! I took macro, micro, 101 but I also took an economics course that was combined with studies in environmental sustainability. I got an F...but that's not because I didn't pay attention or learn, it's because I was in my own world and didn't care enough to pay attention to deadline. I suppose I was a bit of a hippie at the time too. Hey good on you for being into your studies.

Anything that is said in this thread by anyone is just a class or two away.

Jan 19 2013 3:00AM
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nice, that's great, I love that it puts it in perspective within a practical real-world context. I am really adjusting the way I think to put environmental sustainablitiy within a social context to make effective change. yeah for sure, I totally understand that grade aren't nessacarily representative of knowledge.

aha yeah that and I am a sucker for disagreeing
cool.

anyways actual bedtime now.

probably.
Jan 19 2013 3:03AM
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jameskiy
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i was thinking about this the other day, my only thing is why does the government have the right to restrict movies to minors?
Jan 19 2013 3:07AM
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accualyisdolan
Posts: 3295 - Karma: -192
Dude do you do bath salts? Seriously
Jan 19 2013 5:19PM
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WillieFat
Posts: 73 - Karma: 52
Listen to some of George Carlin's comedy acts. Shit's inspirational.
Jan 19 2013 5:28PM
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accualyisdolan
Posts: 3295 - Karma: -192
Dude. Just shut up...
Jan 19 2013 7:34PM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
I see you too are well versed in the art of internet arguing.

Internet arguing is where you scream what all day when you haven't even thought of the why
Jan 20 2013 2:16AM
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brosephstalin
Posts: 429 - Karma: 8
GIMME SOME MORE OF DAT MARXISM-LENINISM
Jan 20 2013 2:28AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
YES BRUVA YUO KNOW WAT IM TLKING ABUOT
Jan 20 2013 2:35AM
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ElMexicano
Posts: 639 - Karma: 400
Look at voluntaryism or ancap or anarco-capitalism. Same thing really.
Jan 20 2013 2:55AM
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