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America isn't free

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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
free·dom
/ˈfrēdəm/
Noun
  1. The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
  2. Absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.

Someone try to tell me how American citizens are free. It seems so basic to be able to have control over you're body and yet people aren't free to dress or express themselves through hair style, tattoos and still have a job. If you want to smoke weed where it's illegal you can be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be beaten. If you don't want to go to jail because you want to defend your liberties and you fight back, you can be killed. What is the purpose of law? Surely it is to protect your freedom. And yet somewhere along the line it got perverted to conforming everyone to the ideals of the majority, or worse yet, the instrumental desires of the upper class to produce a more efficient working class, as if this was beneficial to anyone but those profiting. How can gay marriage be illegal in a country whose hash tag is freedom? Even if you disagree with it, I think it can be agreed that those people should have the freedom.

I hope people don't hate this thread, I think it is an interesting idea.
Jan 18 2013 7:24PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
this isn't news
Jan 18 2013 7:25PM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Jan 18 2013 7:37PM
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PJS.
Posts: 11943 - Karma: 895
I would compare freedom to alcohol percentages. You have some low proof freedom, like North Korea, and you have some high proof freedom, like the US. You can't drink 200 proof freedom, because it will likely fucking kill you, and you don't want to drink 0 proof freedom because it's just water and it's no fun. The US has a nice balance.
Jan 18 2013 7:42PM
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Bart.Man
Posts: 1742 - Karma: 1,952
It's a paradox. To have true freedom is chaos, therefore rules and regulations must be implemented.

As for the bit about hair and dress, that's just a societal norm. Those will always naturally occur, even in complete anarchy.

I agree that we are not free as the Founding Fathers intended, but comparatively, we are.

We have the right to choose and practice our own religion, the right to protest whatever we want. We have the right to stand up and do something if we don't like the way it is, and (for now at least) the right to bear arms.

On a related note, I defy anyone to think of any aspect of their life that isn't regulated/controlled somehow by the government.
Jan 18 2013 7:42PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
what? you can get whatever hair style and tattoos you want. surely freedom also means having the freedom to hire whoever you want to represent your company, right?

having laws mean you aren't free? yeah, if you smoke weed where it's illegal you get arrested. same way if you kill someone where it's illegal you get arrested. that's a law. just because you disagree with it doesn't mean it shouldn't be a law. and laws change. hence the reason marijuana is becoming more and more legal.

no idea what you are referring to when you say "if you don't want to go to jail because you want to defend your liberties and you fight back, you can be killed."

yes, the purpose of law is to protect your freedom. what ideals of the majority are everyone else being forced to conform to besides things like drugs?

can't argue with you here. gay marriage being illegal is just stupid.
Jan 18 2013 7:45PM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
mhh I disagree. If people were allowed to do what they want, as long as it didn't take away from the freedom of others, I think it would be fine. Think about how laws are 'supposed' to be created. It's supposed to be desired by the majority. And in total freedom, if the majority desire something, it will be made to exist anyways by true, active democracy though voluntary association
Jan 18 2013 7:46PM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,317
In total freedom, people would join paramilltary groups to ensure their survival. If you wanted another groups shit you'd poison their water and kill them all and go take it before they did the same thing to you. You'd be locked in your basement with an AK all night long hoping people wouldn't come and kill you and rape your family. Shit would be fucked.
Jan 18 2013 7:49PM
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AcidKneeDrop
Posts: 890 - Karma: 279
Democracy is fucking hell dude... america is not a democracy it is a republic, and by the way even Benjamin Franklin stated that democracy is just two wolves and sheep deciding whats for dinner
Jan 18 2013 7:52PM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
How? is that the world you would create? I think 99.9% wouldn't want to create that world.. and if things could only exist though creation by voluntary association, how would that come about?

I think it would be more like; people join and support efforts to improve quality of life that they believe in without the incentive of profit, the incentive being quality of life. The the things people want to exist will be made and people will get a larger proportion of what they invest their work into because it isn't being owned overall by some higher power that takes what they make in exchange for a small portion of its worth (wages)

It's like.. if we can assume most people aren't rapists and want to stop rapists... then in this system of true democracy, that would happen right?
Jan 18 2013 7:54PM
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NotGhood
Posts: 2809 - Karma: 1,255
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Jan 18 2013 7:55PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
he thinks that is the world it would create. only way to know who is right is to try it.
Jan 18 2013 7:58PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
absolutely not.

Because I'm not raping someone. I'm taking the fruit of your labor.

I'll wait until you have something I want or need, then I'll kill or maim everyone who stands in my way.


99% wouldn't want this, and I wouldn't either....but it's exactly what would happen. And the proof of that lies in the fact that it is exactly what happened.
Jan 18 2013 8:03PM
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snowfinder
Posts: 2873 - Karma: 34,179
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Jan 18 2013 8:10PM
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PJS.
Posts: 11943 - Karma: 895
You don't need a majority to fuck society up. You just need immoral people, no restraints and lots of weapons.
Jan 18 2013 8:10PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51644 - Karma: 162,264
You've outdone yourself. This is even worse than the cock ring thread.
Jan 18 2013 8:13PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
freedom doesn't guarantee employment
Jan 18 2013 8:16PM
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987321654hgfd
Posts: 5133 - Karma: 5,447
This.

And why does it even matter to you you're Canadian
Jan 18 2013 8:25PM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
you need heiarchy of power - the idea is that people keep others power in check and everyone should in theory have an equal opportunity to have their interests met

I agree that this is what has happened, I think the solution is that if everyone just realized they were being exploited and having their labour stolen then we could change things - its been a slow process but think about how not too long ago people fought and won the 8 hour day. life before that must have sucked.

to everyone who thinks this thread sucks, I have purchased you all these mugs and they are being shipped to your house

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Jan 18 2013 8:32PM
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Dubins
Posts: 174 - Karma: 33
I like how the definition of "freedom" that we should r living by is from google dictionary...
Jan 18 2013 8:46PM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,317
It really doesn't matter what people would want. Without organized structure protecting security, industry will cease to function. When a lot of people are then competing for not enough resources violence is inevitable. Survival of the fittest.  You don't necessarily need "the government" but you need something. There are tons of examples of tribal societies living in perfect harmony etc. but they have their social norms etc that keep people working towards a common goal more or less.
Jan 18 2013 8:55PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,885
holy fuck this
Jan 18 2013 8:55PM
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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
I describe freedom as "being able to do whatever you want so long that you aren't hurting anyone else or infringing on their freedoms"

The purpose of law is to prevent the hurt and infringement. Anything else is usually a bad law.
Jan 18 2013 9:49PM
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HamFaceGirl
Posts: 5242 - Karma: 2,676
Shut the fuck up
Jan 18 2013 10:01PM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
lol
Jan 18 2013 10:02PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
THANK YOU. finally someone else knows this
Jan 18 2013 10:10PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
How did you know what addressto ship my mug to?
Jan 18 2013 11:48PM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
i fucking love you
Jan 18 2013 11:51PM
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john7elway
Posts: 419 - Karma: 248
A business isn't america. You have complete freedom to sit at home and smoke weed and have no responsibilities. What do you think hippies do? They mooch off hard workers so they don't have to do shit every day.

Plenty of people dress how they want and express how they feel every day, do you live under a fucking rock? A business isn't the place where someone should be expressing themselves by not wearing nice clothes.

Yes, there are things like gay marriage that are being changed and will eventually be legal in the entire country but that what happens when your countries majority control believes in Jesus and apparently jesus hates fags. Until the government gets less religion-based there will always be some lack of freedom.

Either way, this thread is fucking stupid.
Jan 18 2013 11:57PM
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Puns
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Oh tell me again how much work wealthy 'hard workers'do. Oh wait, they just have a lot of money or power over people to steal the profits of their hard work o____o

Why isn't a business not a good place to express yourself? I think it's much more harmful to people to be limited by these expectations of the workplace. Also nice clothes is just as subjective as it gets, why couldn't a person of a different culture wear clothes that they thought were nice. Where the freedom in that?

Who benefits from your ideas? I make sure mine benefit as many people as possible, and that it is fair. Sure it may seem a little ideal, but why not work towards optimum and if we don't get there we'll be close.
Jan 19 2013 12:01AM
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john7elway
Posts: 419 - Karma: 248
Just as I though, you're a fucking douche bag hippie

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Jan 19 2013 12:03AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
There are a lot of jobs that allow you to express yourself.
Jan 19 2013 12:04AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
I'm just frusterated that these expectation of the workplace limit peoples ability to use their body how they want. I see people who have jobs that lets them express themselves, and in these places most people do, and I think it makes them happier. To me that shows that it's something that people want/would be good for them, but the interests of profit cut it out in the name of efficiency
Jan 19 2013 12:09AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152

A for profit business is just that, for profit. Their goal is not just to have happy employees--although it's not something they completely disregard either because happy employees=more productivity, fewer sick days, etc. But there needs to be a balance, because if you're selling a product or service, and most business are, you have a target market. If your target market gets turned off by certain things, then you're pushing away business and cutting into your profits. But there is a middle road that usually pleases everyone-- tattoos can be covered, or piercings taken out.

I mean, let's say your company is a golf club. The target market of your golf club is middle and upper class locals. You don't get to choose your target market, the target market chooses you.  In this situation, appealing to this group is going to give you maximum profit. If tattoos, weird hair colors, and dressing improper don't fit within the norms of your target market, it would be bad for business for your staff to display these things. 

It's not personal. Nothing is personal. It's business.

Why would you want to work at a place in which the demographic judges you anyway? That's the beauty of America, you don't have to. Go get a job at a hipster bar and rock the shit out of your piercings and tattoos if you want to, or be a software engineer, or be an entrepreneur and own your own company.

Jan 19 2013 12:21AM
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thenightman
Posts: 766 - Karma: 132
if you want to "express yourself" start your own business. If you work for someone who doesn't approve of your expression in the workplace than don't do it. They are doing you a favor for employing you and putting money in your pocket, so follow their rules.
Jan 19 2013 12:23AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
This is really well written, and there's some good points. I agree with what you said, but I will add that in the way that all of the things you said, profit is a bad motivation. I think the motivation should be increasing the quality of life. In a profit system that is not unnecessary a direct correlation but in a world where people got to choose what they worked on without profit, good and services that would have a greater benefit to the population would be created.

And to the person that says be thankful for a job.. sure jobs are great and we need them but it doesn't mean it's fair that a long time ago there was a huge power imbalance and it has carried down so that some people have always had the money or power to profit off of others label. Their interests will always be against yours. They want you to work as cheaply as possible. They may make 5 times more than they pay you off your labour, but because they have the money (that is almost never from 'hard work' of theirs) you are forced to make a wage instead of a representative fraction of your benefit to society.
Jan 19 2013 12:30AM
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accualyisdolan
Posts: 3295 - Karma: -192
Obama is a huge cunt for being so progressive and still doing nothing to end the drug war. Fuck Obama. He's a fucking narcotics agent
Jan 19 2013 12:35AM
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thenightman
Posts: 766 - Karma: 132
seriously?
Jan 19 2013 12:38AM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,317
So start your own business if your such an asset to society. Dress however the fuck you want or go to work completely naked. I can tell that you have never paid someone to work for you. Its so god damned irritating to watch your money to go to waste it flips your perspective on its head.
Jan 19 2013 12:38AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152

That's called a not-for-profit-- we have those :)

Sorry I had to interject there, now I will read the rest of your post.

Jan 19 2013 12:41AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
I don't mean that I am an asset. It's true that I've never paid someone to work for me.. but in this system I am talking about everyone takes the risks equally and profits equally, so you would also benefit from this by not feeling that pressure. Though if you had ideas you could still influence and positively benefit society.

and to the other; I mean profit is a bad motivation in that it creates profit, and not nessacarily quality of life.. where the motivation is quality of life it puts everyone interest on the same level and breeds higher quality of life
Jan 19 2013 12:44AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152
Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic.
Samir: So what did you say?
Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech.
Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech because that question is bullshit to begin with. If everyone listened to her, there'd be no janitors, because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.
Jan 19 2013 12:48AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
Mhhhh.. okay so what if people chose to be extra supportive of these people with shitty... jobs because they are invested in having these services provided to them, and so it's in the interests of others to influence that having these jobs would be positive.
Jan 19 2013 12:51AM
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thenightman
Posts: 766 - Karma: 132
Are you saying that having more money doesn't create a higher quality of life? If you have more money you can buy a nicer/safer car, a house to keep you warm and better medicine. Also everyone's interests don't interest me. If some kid I've never met wants a new bike, to be honest I don't give a shit. They should ask their parents for a new one, and if their parents can't afford one then they need a lesson from French...


Jan 19 2013 12:58AM
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Sno.
Posts: 12155 - Karma: 6,152

explain better, please. Are you saying higher wages for the shitty jobs?

The reason this doesn't work, is that typically "shitty" jobs require little skill or education, which equals a higher amount of people in the job pool. That's why they pay less, because businesses don't have a problem filling them with how many people that are out there without education or skill. The jobs that pay more, pay more because the candidate pool is narrowed due to the fact that not everyone has the education or skill to fill it.

For isntance, cliche but still an appropriate example: Janitors vs. Brain Surgeons.

Jan 19 2013 12:59AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
no, I'm saying the amount that good and services motivated by profit improves quality of life is less than the amount that good and services produced with quality of life as motivation improve quality of life

and to snobunny, that makes a lot of sense to me... what do you think about this; why isn't everyone a brain surgeon now; they are motivated by the money, but they have the skill. if a janitor could (problems of access to education aside) be a brain surgeon, they would, wouldn't they? same thing in this scenario.. people will be janitors because they can provide a service that people will support.

I should also clarify that people make the money that is equal to how much they contribute to society, much like now. if people believe a brain surgeon contriubutes more, they will make more. the difference is that the unfair imbalances now that started by abuse of power create an advantage where some people own the means to make things, controlling the wage of workers and pushing it as low as possible. in my scenario these would be made by the public and therefore owned by the public
Jan 19 2013 1:09AM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,317
Okay you are fundamentally missing the point on how human beings make choices. What you are saying is basically the same as saying, "why don't we just choose that granite is worth more than diamonds so we are all rich?" There is a thing called supply and demand, which isn't an idea imposed by a government or a matter of choice, its a law of survival. The only way that what you are proposing could function is in an environment of unlimited resources, where everyones survival needs are readily met. Newsflash: that is not reality. We live in a rich country and the majority of humans fight to get barely enough food to live. We would literally need to have a death wish by starvation or warfare to want to give this up. Your ideas are insane when applied to reality.
Jan 19 2013 1:13AM
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Puns
Posts: 2052 - Karma: 429
I don't quite understand how I am saying the first part; but I will say that I agree on the idea of supply and demand; that still exists. I don't get the unlimited resources part either I'm sorry. I think peoples survival needs are much more easily met when the majority of the value of their work is stolen from them just because people have power over them by having more money or owning machines etc.
Jan 19 2013 1:15AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
yeah wealthy people dont work hard, you're right, their huge companies just build themselves.. but really now... stealing the profits of their hard work? no its quite the opposite, they are giving money for their work.

i dont know you, so i hate to judge, but you sound a lot like the typical highschool/college grad who bitches about "the man" and how greedy rich people are because you cant get a good paying job straight out of college. you ask most successful people where they started and its not high up in some well paying job right out of college. its most likely working shit job's being the wealthy guy's bitch, or interning for nothing.
kids now seem to need instant gratification. its the shit jobs that pay minimum wage for a lot of work that are extremely necessary to give you the experience and work ethic to eventually, over time, work your way up, start your own company, etc.. wal-mart employees arent taken advantage of, they have a choice to work their, they arent forced, they do it for shit money because its a job that takes no work experience/skill to do. thers nothing wrong with working at a McDonalds, even after college, its better than nothing, and all it does is build your experience and resume and make you more valuable.


Jan 19 2013 1:17AM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
I like your optimism, but simply put, not everyone is smart enough. End of story.


You can apply yourself to your work as much as you'd like, study nonstop and work your ass off, but at the end of the day, most people simply are not smart enough to do it.
Jan 19 2013 1:17AM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,082
I think you're expecting the world to not be greedy and in our current society where money is king, you're never going to see this. Sorry bro. True communism is the way to go but it never works because the leaders get greedy and powerful and take advantage of the people in a sense "trading" goods and services vs earning money and buying things.

They key to modern life is do something you enjoy, don't focus on money, focus on happiness. Everyone I know who has a job for the money always is trying to get a promotion or trying to get a new better job because the money isn't enough satisfaction and normally they're working a bullshit cubical job. If you like business and want to move up in a business then yeah you're gonna work shitty cubical jobs for awhile but if you enjoy being outside or something, take up a career in park service or something (horrible example, but you get it).

You're only going to be unhappy in life if you don't pursue your passion. Anyone can pursue their passion and to me thats "freedom" now the fact you might have to wear a tie when you wanna wear a sweatshirt is such a minor detail that you really shouldn't be focused on. Maybe im totally missing your point here but it seems like you don't want to conform and want the world to be unique and move away from the bullshit now right? as as I said before, when money is involved, its never gonna change.
Jan 19 2013 1:19AM
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