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Greater Equality: How Equality Effectively Determines a Nation's Social Aspects

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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
Facts do not lie. Facts all come with points of view, but this time the point of view came with the facts.

A wealth of studies were done and they all came to one conclusion: Health and social problems are directly related to how bad inequality is in a certain country, while general wealth has little to no correlation.

It isn't about how much money we spend. Nearly every aspect of a society usually somehow comes back to one factor: equality.

Inequality in the US today is worse than it was during the Roman Empire. Health and social problems are also among the worst.

Imprisonment, suicide, obesity, social mobility, homicide, education performance, you name it are not related to GDP. It is related to how evenly that wealth is distributed.

This is all explained and backed in a much more well-written format.

"Greater Equality: The Hidden Key to Better Health and Higher Scores"
Here's the PDF for those who would like to read the full article:
 http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/spring2011/Wilkinson.pdf
I would HIGHLY recommend reading that.

This does not come with an opinion by me.

Facts do not lie.



Dec 16 2012 9:04PM
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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
I know y'all niggas is lazy, but seriously, this pamphlet is something everyone should read.
Dec 17 2012 6:08PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
source?
Dec 17 2012 6:18PM
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brosephstalin
Posts: 429 - Karma: 8
thanks for the study.

i wrote a paper about this for a political statistical analysis class and reached similar conclusions.



Dec 17 2012 6:19PM
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panojibber.
Posts: 1041 - Karma: 683
I both agree and disagree with you...

Case in point: Native american societies. No technological evolution, just using the same methods and knowledge that have worked for generations. Little to no inequality. I think the reason they never began to technologically evolve is because these societies often didn't record history; there were oral histories passed down over time, but they never positioned themselves on a timeline of progress like we do. We say that we've come so far in 500 years but I don't think that in the grand scheme of things anything has changed. History and progress are an illusion, cultures that disregard history have got it right. We think we need more equality, more taxes, better transportation, more advanced medicine, but these things will never solve our problems. That is the illusion of history.

I will be stoked if anyone understands what I'm talking about, because I don't think I worded that as well as I could have lol.
Dec 17 2012 6:20PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
Link/file seems damaged
Dec 17 2012 6:21PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
That is completely false. Learn about pre-European North American history.
Dec 17 2012 6:23PM
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panojibber.
Posts: 1041 - Karma: 683
Ehhh, prove me wrong then.
Maybe in some cases this is true but I've studied native american cultures a little bit and this is what I'm led to believe.
Dec 17 2012 6:29PM
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accualyisdolan
Posts: 3295 - Karma: -192
Zimmerman why don't you stop posting and move to Greece already. They got all the equality you want
Dec 17 2012 6:29PM
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accualyisdolan
Posts: 3295 - Karma: -192
And anybody inclined to feel that America is unfair, I hear Nigeria has got some sick condos and everybody is equal
Dec 17 2012 6:34PM
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Sit
Posts: 177 - Karma: 293
Quality OP, interesting read. Shitstorm probability: High
Dec 17 2012 6:41PM
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Lt-Aldo-Raine
Posts: 2309 - Karma: 120
Dumbest post of the day, congrats.
Dec 17 2012 6:44PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
zomg, "equality" is in the title, FUCKING COMMUNISTS. COMMUNISTS EVERYWHERE. HOW DO YOU DARE TAKIN AWAY MY RIGHT TO PURSUE THE AMERICAN DREAM
Dec 17 2012 6:45PM
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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/20/us-income-inequality_n_1898539.html

"Likewise, two historians concluded last year that income inequality today is worse even than it was during the Roman Empire. The study found that the top 1 percent of Ancient Roman earners controlled 16 percent of the Empire’s riches, compared to the top 1 percent of American earners today who control 40 percent of the country's wealth."
Dec 17 2012 7:08PM
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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
Find me a person on this site who likes your posts...
Dec 24 2012 2:59PM
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2_fadez
Posts: 7780 - Karma: 4,183
If I work my ass off, why should I pay for someone who sits around watching tv all day?
Dec 24 2012 3:09PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
haha yeah, not entirely sure what you are saying. i think if you explain what you mean by "illusion" and "problems" it will make things more clear, and what you are referring to when you say "I don't think that in the grand scheme of things anything has changed."
Dec 24 2012 3:25PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,345
You get em tiger. rawr
Dec 24 2012 3:33PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
the problem is that this just isn't how america works anymore. i'm 99% sure that if someone born in a worse situation than you are works just as hard as you do they will still still end up less successful than you. it's no longer easier to change your social class from the one you are born into in america than anywhere else in the world
Dec 24 2012 3:36PM
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2_fadez
Posts: 7780 - Karma: 4,183
I'm bipolar and have ADHD. I still take full responsibility for my actions.

And I have worked with the shittiest of the shitty. I worked in the ghetto this summer painting a warehouse. My coworkers were mostly missing teeth and single parents. They held jobs and I had the utmost respect for them.

That being said, everyday I went to work, I would see hundreds of people who sat on their doorstep all day smoking newports, drinking liquor listening to the radio. Every fucking day. Didn't matter whether it was 9am or 6pm.
Why should I help pay for their cigs and 40's?
Dec 24 2012 3:40PM
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salomon097
Posts: 1345 - Karma: 301
Yea your right we should just totally disregard history so we can keep making the same fucking mistakes over and over again. Good damn you are dumb
Dec 24 2012 3:42PM
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volvotom
Posts: 2045 - Karma: 712
Although I agree with the premise, your opposition is likely to point out that your source is American Educator which is the magazine of AFT, American Federation of Teachers. A "union."

If you looked a little harder you could probably find a similar article from a peer reviewed journal such as the Chronicle or Higher Education.
Dec 24 2012 3:50PM
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volvotom
Posts: 2045 - Karma: 712
I will also add that the endnotes do include a vast number of peer reviewed sources cited throughout the article.
Dec 24 2012 3:52PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
I agree with this.

There will obviously be some outliers to this, cases in which some rises from the ghetto and becomes "successfull" (in the sense of making lots of money) but for the most part I would say it is near impossible for someone born in a shitty situation to get out of it.

What motivation does that person have to pursue higher education and a high paying job when everyone around them their whole life has not done that. I even saw this with friends of mine in elemnetary school, their parents did not go to post secondary school so they saw no benefit to it.
Dec 24 2012 3:59PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
but even if you do have the motivation it is extremely difficult. if you are born into a poor family you are likely going to get a sub-par education through high school and even if you excel there it makes it harder to get into good colleges and even if you get into good colleges you likely won't have much money to pay with. so then you either can't go or need to take a ton of money out in loans which you then need to pay back eventually before you can start making money of your own

obviously you are entitled to not wanting to help those less fortunate than yourself with your hard-earned money, but personally i don't understand it. especially when there are so many people in america who have more money than they don't know what to do with. the top 1% in america holds 35.4% of the countries wealth, and the bottom 80% of the population in america holds just 11.1 % of the countries total wealth. so unless you believe that 80% of people in america do nothing but sit on their asses all day the idea of the american dream just doesn't hold much water.

Dec 24 2012 4:13PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
whoops. the "don't" shouldn't be there, sorry.
Dec 24 2012 4:14PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
Yah I was agreeing with you.

Higher education is so unfeasibly expensive for anyone who grows up in a poor family/area that it is an unchaseable dream. Their whole life they are told they will amount to nothing go nowhere. Even in Canada our education is too expensive, if a nation wants a better educated population than higher education must be affordable or free.
Dec 24 2012 4:22PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
yeah, i know; i was just expanding on what you said. in theory, socialism is the best political/economic system. problem is the theory never seems to work out in real life
Dec 24 2012 4:25PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
Couldn't agree more with all of the above! Certainly everyone is entitled to do what they please with their hard earned money, to an extent. But this generation's greed and selfishness is absolutely sickening. I enjoy looking at my paycheck and seeing a few pennies taken from my dollar in order to fund all the necessary programs in this country, especially those that support the poor, sick, and disadvantaged. I'm happy to pay those taxes and I always make it a point to donate at least 2% of my income to charity when I can. Everyone needs to show a little bit more compassion for those less fortunate than us, as a healthy and happy nation will undeniably become a successful and prosperous one.
Dec 24 2012 4:31PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i dont like this viewpoint because it implies that capitalism works in practice pretty well. which i say is definitely not true and it straight up DESTROYS wealth and creates poverty, whereas all other systems just shift wealth.
Dec 24 2012 5:09PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
yeah, i wasn't trying to imply that because i agree with what you said, but you're right. do you think it's fair to say that capitalism works better than any other economic system we have come up with so far? i really don't know; economics isn't my thing at all.
Dec 24 2012 5:27PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
well to be honest (and my field are financial markets, the main centres of capitalism, wall street, london, singapur, etc...), free markets suck, noone knows whats going on, not even 20 million/year hedge fund managers. they destroy wealth, plain and simple, every once in while. stealing is "not bad", because someone still has the money. in financial markets, everyone can win and everyone can lose, which is kind of counterintuitive.

so i do think that you need a lot of restrictions to have "working" financial markets. and if you actively govern financial markets, you probably need to limit other areas as well, resulting in some sort of managed economy.

honestly, noone knows, but i think that free capitalism is not working. on the other hand, managed economies are against certain psychological traits of humans. i think that the "perfect" system is somewhat 80% planned and the rest some free form in order to provide self-fulfilment.
Dec 24 2012 6:06PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
and i just want to clarify. i do not think that managed economies have been shown to be utopic. the soviet union broke down, so their version did not work, obviously.

but capitalism has created a lot of more severe crisises and it wasnt abolished.

to me, thats just a political or cultural anomaly, but no argument in favor of capitalism (referring to the downfall of the soviet union)
Dec 24 2012 6:09PM
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ILLinoisance
Posts: 3527 - Karma: 5,398
Paying for school is not even a challenge if you're poor enough. A kid I go to school with gets paid 2k annually to go my school (38k annual tuition) after all the "need based" grants are given to him because his parents are poor.
Dec 24 2012 6:10PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
yeah, i definitely don't think capitalism, the way it is structured now, is working. there are way too many people living in poverty and third-world living conditions to say that capitalism "works." this definitely isn't the best we can do.
Dec 24 2012 6:27PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
so you're friend has to pay 36k instead of 38k? that's not that big of a difference?

and there definitely aren't enough grants/scholarships to go around to all the students in the country/world who need them. for every story like your friend's where the student does get money there are probably a whole lot more where the student doesn't get the money he or she needs.
Dec 24 2012 6:30PM
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ILLinoisance
Posts: 3527 - Karma: 5,398
He gets paid 2k a year to go to school. His grants were not academic based, only need based. He gets 40k in grants annually.
Dec 24 2012 6:42PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
got it. normally when people say they get "paid" they just mean how much they get in grants/scholarships
Dec 24 2012 6:47PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
Are they grants from the school? Or are they grants from the state/federal governments?
Dec 24 2012 9:51PM
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danderson.
Posts: 6560 - Karma: 5,252
.
Dec 24 2012 9:54PM
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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
You don't...
Dec 25 2012 1:28PM
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steezywannabeezy
Posts: 990 - Karma: 690
Quality post. We Just got this universal remote which is supposed to make life easier. Now I can't figure out how to record shows. When we got cars we started spreading out. Cars make things faster, right? Not necessarily. Going to the grocery store 100 years ago was a five minute walk. Now it's a ten minute drive to the Walmart that put the local store out of business.

A further discussion to be had is how technology progression estranges different generations (the digital divide). In the middle ages you used the same hoe your dad used. The enlightenment gave us this inner need to progress. We should think of progression within individual lives--not separate generations.
Dec 25 2012 2:00PM
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cottage_steeze
Posts: 564 - Karma: 58
Less paying jobs do not mean less work. Would you rather be schlepping bags into an airplane everyday working your ass off making a small amount or sitting in a desk answering a phone as CEO of a company. I would say the bag handler is working a lot harder.
Dec 25 2012 2:00PM
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steezywannabeezy
Posts: 990 - Karma: 690
Also, only including well-to-do westernized countries so as to make USA the worst in each category suggests propagandist bias. Throw in Nigeria and North Korea for more reference.
Dec 25 2012 2:02PM
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ILLinoisance
Posts: 3527 - Karma: 5,398
Yes, but the CEO is working smarter. Able-bodied individuals are plentiful in this nation. Intelligent minds are severely lacking.
Dec 25 2012 2:02PM
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ILLinoisance
Posts: 3527 - Karma: 5,398
Combination of all of those.
Dec 25 2012 2:03PM
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InFlames
Posts: 534 - Karma: -25
"What a world to look out on! The frontiers behind which sixty nations, tribes beyond number, and races are now entrenched have vanished; the earth below is as free as the sky above; among the peoples there is no longer any color bar; a common tongue has swept through the earth as in the palmy days of Babel. Tariff walls have been overthrown; there are no passports, no dues, no patriotism, for every living soul is a citizen of the world, free to come and go, free to trade as needs compel or moods suggest. There are no armies, no navies, for there is no longer any warlike spirit in human nature. Only a central airborne police to see that the one universal code of law is observed. There will be no competition, no rivalry, and hence no malice, envy, or evil ambition. Jerusalem shall take her place as the world's capital - a center of power and uplift, in touch with all communities. One state, one government, one law, and one God"

"Universalism as an ideal is as old as - nay, is probably much more ancient than - the Christian ideal. Yet see how different they are in penetrating power. Christianity has a momentum of its own which has carried it over a large part of the earth's surface; Universalism has no drive, no momentum; it is not contagious; it has behind it no missionary enthusiasm. And yet this strange fact remains: Universalism, not as an ideal but as a political practice, has been and is at work in all parts of the earth. Nowhere is Universalism welcomed and encouraged by a people; everywhere governments have forced and are forcing Universalism upon unwilling and resistant subjects. There is something in the Universalist ideal which runs against the grain of human nature. Force and fear are the driving power behind this regional kind of Universalism. Love and brotherhood have had no part in its spread."

Sir Arthur Keith thinks you can go fuck yourself.
Dec 25 2012 2:11PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
seeing how my dad went from having nothing in a tiny rural town to being a doctor, it really only matters how hard you try. this excuse is a weak one at best
Dec 25 2012 2:23PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
first of all, it's not an excuse, it's a fact. social mobility is harder now in the united states than most other modernized first-world countries. and, no offense, but i don't think the one example of your dad working hard and making it is enough to definitively disprove my point; if you didn't know there are over 300 million people in the united states, 1 is an awfully small sample size to draw any conclusions from.

but you won't change your mind, so, you think that 80% of americans are just lazy and sit on their asses all day doing nothing?
Dec 25 2012 3:08PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
here are some sources, sorry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/opinion/brooks-america-is-europe.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-climbin_n_501788.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/03/end_of_the_american_dream_economic_mobility_is_now_greater_in_europe_than_the_united_states_.html

Dec 25 2012 3:11PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
one is also an awfully small sample size to immediately assume that i think 80% of americans just sit on their ass all day, isn't it? many of my friends' parents went from nothing to having it all because they worked their asses off. not saying it's an end-all for the discussion but i have proof right outside my door that if you actually work hard, you can get somewhere. we need to stop complaining so much and go fucking change something.
the difficulty in social mobility is probably because we're too caught up in who each kardashian is fucking and how many followers we have on twitter. no one applies themselves anymore. everyone is a self entitled fucknut that expects to have a college degree and a six figure salary handed to them.
Dec 25 2012 3:20PM
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