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Gun Ownership v. Violent Crime, by Harvard

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bigbromskier
Posts: 1175 - Karma: 330
I haven't read the other threads much, but I was referred to this article in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

It is long, but very well written and cited a huge amount of stats, figures, and articles from around the world--their conclusion is that, in the end, there is no correlation between more guns in society creating more violent crime. They admit it themselves that they were surprised to have to report that a greater prevalence of guns, statistically speaking, has very little relation to rates of homicide and other violent crime.

Rather, they suggest that it is the socio-cultural and economic situation of an environment that produces more violent crime. Interestingly enough, they state that areas with greater rates of violent crime indeed have stricter gun control laws, and that such areas have lower quality socio-cultural and economic situations.

Furthermore, while I see guns as solely being necessary for hunting, sport, and armed forces, the study states that states in the US that allow concealed firearms have seen lowered rates of violent crimes as such. This is because the general population is not murderers, and the vast majority of murderers isn't your average person who just snaps all of a sudden and has access to a gun, as per popular belief. Rather, the population of murderers, by and large, has a criminal history, has had multiple run-ins with the law, has social or psychological problems, and/or has been continuously exposed to areas of socio-cultural and economic distress and could probably gain access to a gun no matter the legality of the situation.

Sorry if this has already been pointed out, and I don't want to create more argumentation, but this is a well-researched fact-based report from probably the most highly respected institution in the world. Give it a read or skim through it and maybe it'll change your opinion on gun control laws; it certainly changed mine.
Dec 15 2012 6:41PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,354
I bought one because i wanted one, i dont need any more of a reason than that. Shooting is a hobby for me and my AK adds a new dimension to that. i could use it for home defense but thats what my shotgun is for.

Very few people are killed with assault rifles. If you want to go after any gun go after pistols.

inb4 personal enjoyment isnt a good enough reason to own a death machine. spare me the rhetoric
Dec 15 2012 10:20PM
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RimJobber
Posts: 3313 - Karma: 10,058
Yeah bro, when a guy has the intention of killing you, you should just sit there and die, right? I truly hope nobody is ever put in a situation where using a gun is an option, but it happens all the time. True, guns such as automatics should not be legal, but I sure as hell hope that if someone breaks into a family's house that there is a shotgun or rifle between the attacker and innocent people, such as kids
Dec 15 2012 10:26PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
so you're saying that you're semi automatic weapons is fun and the fun outways the fact that they are used in mass shootings. I understand your pro gun but there needs to be some kind of compromise. when I went to Cambodia I shot a cow with a rocket launcher for 500 dollars was it fun yes I do I think people in America should have rocket launchers to fire for fun No.
Dec 15 2012 10:31PM
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B-runge
Posts: 16558 - Karma: 361
i dont care if guns are legal or not but this is such a fucking bad point, no one gives a shit
Dec 15 2012 10:45PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,354
im not going to use mine to shoot anyone who doesnt deserve to be shot. 99.9% of people who own guns dont commit crimes with them. To further regulate guns is not fair to the rest of us who play by the rules. It sucks when innocent people die...it sucks super hard.

i dont think we should have rocket launchers either
Dec 15 2012 10:49PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
obviously. unfortunately people are even harder to regulate than guns. it's also unfortunate that people often speak before they thing and throw around words like "faggot" and "retard" and making fun of people who are "losers" without giving it a second thought.
Dec 15 2012 11:02PM
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bigbromskier
Posts: 1175 - Karma: 330
Exactly. I know that not all studies' results are to be taken point blank; however, this is very convincing. Obviously it isn't the fact that there are or aren't guns, it's the fact that people are down and out, angry, unhappy, and depressed, the fact that they see other people as being better than them, and for that they feel the need to kill and inflict harm as an outlasting rationalization.

It's sad but true. I've always been scared of guns because of the sheer power they have, especially after shooting them, which can be a damn good time. But there's nothing that further regulation will do to make an impact on tragedies such as in CT--it's nothing like the effect deregulating banks had (another can of worms). like morgan freeman said, and has been true for as long as the media has existed, the sensationalization of these events turns these people into idols for the down and out and oppressed, and boils up such actions.

It's a social issue rather than a criminal one, and it can't be denied that in the age of internet and technology, which enhance the spread of news about such peoples' actions, there has been more and more of these horrible actions.

On a lighter note, it's Saturday and hopefully everyone's getting htheir party on! i hope there's a beer or two or ten on the table as with mine
Dec 15 2012 11:23PM
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JAHpow
Posts: 7282 - Karma: 17,176
You are presenting some of the dumbest arguments. I mean rocket launchers? And you bitch about how we aren't giving you an statistics, at least in the other thread, on how less control lessens crime. Did you read the OP? Did you read my post in the other thread with a link I refered you to multiple times? Here it is again since you're obviously incapable of accessing it yourself.
http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/demay1.html
Dec 15 2012 11:33PM
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shibby
Posts: 7088 - Karma: -19
alright, too many retards on this site. i hope when you guys grow up a little you'll learn to empathize with other human beings, stop thinking about yourselves and learn to make sacrifices when shit is fucking going wrong. for now though you "can 'MURICA, gun love, suck mah d all you want" i dont give a fuck. im done arguing about this shit until the next mass shooting happens, so see you fuckin dummies in eta two weeks or so.
Dec 16 2012 12:33AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
so because cars are a convenient mode of transportation, the convenience outweighs the 30,000 deaths per year they cause?

30,000 deaths is 30,000 deaths, doesnt matter what causes it.

I think the government needs to take away anything fast, sharp, not soft, make us wear helmets, and wrist guards, and walk us around on leashes. that way we would save like 100,000 lives per year. do we really NEED to have any sense of responsibility if it means tens of thousands of people will die?

but 4 reelz, guns are just a tool people use like anything else. the 64 million law abiding gun owners dont buy their guns with the intent to go on killing sprees and murder people. just like people dont buy cars planning on driving drunk, spacing out, texting, loosing control of their car and killing pedestrians and the passengers. but fuck ups happen, people make mistakes, have emotions, anger, we are a naturally violent species and just like in every single period in human history, we will hurt and kill each other regardless of what we have to do it with, in this case, cars seem to be the real danger, legally acquired guns actually dont seem all that bad when you look at all the tools and machines we manage to kill each other with.

but guns look scary and are really loud sooooo..... ban em.
Dec 16 2012 12:36AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
willing to make a sacrifice to potentially save lives? stop driving a car.
Dec 16 2012 12:37AM
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JAHpow
Posts: 7282 - Karma: 17,176
Nah, we argue for the rights of those who use guns appropriately.

But yeah I'm sick of arguing too. We can't make all people believe the same thing.

So let's agree to disagree.
Dec 16 2012 12:38AM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
really lets play the cost and benefit game. is the 30,000 deaths worth me and humans having cars yes. you know what would happen if everyone stop driving a car we would not be the people or be able to function how we do today. does the cost of guns out way the benefit of deaths no. do i think we should ban all gun no thats not what im saying, but the laws need to change. i know i said it would take me 3 hours to go through the op post but finding these studys are much harder then i thought and im trying to pack so its going to take until tomorrow.
Dec 16 2012 1:14AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
im just trying to point out that guns, for 99.9% of people are a tool, like anything else, and when used inappropriately, can be dangerous. for the 20% of gun related homocides that are NOT associated with gangs, or career criminals, the number of deaths really isnt that bad. not saying its acceptable that we have a shooting every other day and i do agree that we NEED to find a solution. but i havent heard a good one yet.
Dec 16 2012 1:20AM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11661 - Karma: 24,354
its cute that you dont actually care at all about people being shot to death. Its only when a bunch of people are killed at the same time that you will argue for gun control. You even said so yourself that you will argue at the next mass shooting.

What difference is it to the victim(s) if there are 30 of em or only 1? I mean, you do care about the victims right? its not just an agenda you have right? Dozens of people die everyday from gunshot wounds and you dont give two shits about any of them. Politifact has it at 87 gun deaths per day in the us but you dont give two shits about 99% of those people. If you did you would be here arguing for stricter gun laws everyday. Yet somehow when a bunch of people die all at the same time in the same place you're all up in arms about it. way to show your true colors.

what a peice of shit you must be. I mean seriously. who only cares when multiple people are killed in close proximity to one another?


Dec 16 2012 1:24AM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
besides shooting people/animals, what are guns a tool for? they are dangerous whether used appropriately or inappropriately.
Dec 16 2012 1:39AM
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LIL_WAT
Posts: 1900 - Karma: 475
inb4 Anathema
Dec 16 2012 1:47AM
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blackmamba.
Posts: 969 - Karma: 56
Should guns be banned: no

Should there be stricter regulation: yes

Will it be easy to enforce change: no

Should people be able to own semi-autos: doubtful

Will people willingly give up their semi-autos: unlikely

Can and should everyone shut the fuck up: without question
Dec 16 2012 3:19AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
shooting targets or animals, that is what i use my guns for, they are in no way intended for harming people. criminals use them to shoot people. they arent dangerous when used appropriately, id be willing to be there is a much lower percentage of deadly gun accidents than car accidents.
Dec 16 2012 1:07PM
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manutdsaol
Posts: 906 - Karma: 56
To me it just seems crazy that anyone can walk up and buy a gun, and then they are allowed to carry it around concealed among other people. They are forcing you to put your life in the hands of anyone that wants a gun.
Dec 16 2012 1:18PM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
no not anyone can just conceal a weapon, you have to get a concealed carry permit. care to tell me how many legal concealed carry permit holders commit murder people with their concealed weapon?
Dec 16 2012 1:27PM
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Mr.Sloth
Posts: 5091 - Karma: 13,469
Lets all go back to using muskets
Dec 16 2012 1:30PM
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JAHpow
Posts: 7282 - Karma: 17,176
Idk where you heard that but it is illegal to carry a concealed firearm without a permit.
Dec 16 2012 2:07PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
....in every state besides illinois, which coincidentally is in that guys icon.
Dec 16 2012 2:10PM
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manutdsaol
Posts: 906 - Karma: 56
Nope, it actually got approved a few days ago.
Dec 16 2012 8:09PM
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manutdsaol
Posts: 906 - Karma: 56
Wait it is legal? I was under the impression that it was completely illegal to carry a concealed weapon in Illinois until a few days ago.
Dec 16 2012 8:12PM
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JAHpow
Posts: 7282 - Karma: 17,176
Idk the exact laws for illinois but in most states a person can carry a concealed firearm with a carry and conceal permit. This permit requires an application approved by the sheriff, a lengthy class, and several hundred dollars in application and class fees, not to mention te cost of the handgun.
Dec 16 2012 8:16PM
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Barefootin_Fiend
Posts: 7618 - Karma: 4,727
basically, there is no concealed carry in Illinois yet. the supreme court just recently struck down the illinois law that prohibits concealed carry, but legislation is not in place yet to define the rules, etc. for how concealed carry in Illinois is going to work. it will likely be quite some time still before I can holster my firearm and go to the store without the fear of being arrested.
Dec 16 2012 8:33PM
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Dustin.
Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704
Well I live in a low income area of Texas right next to the border at the moment (only a few more months, thank God), and even considering how easy it is to legally purchase guns I can still attest that it is EXTREMELY easy to purchase them illegally.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just reading. I just thought that this perspective might help discuss that point.
Dec 16 2012 8:47PM
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Barefootin_Fiend
Posts: 7618 - Karma: 4,727
it's not just Texas. I can also easily acquire them. No, not as easy as weed, but still could have one within a few days with no serial number if I desired. but I'm also not a 16 year old kid...
Dec 16 2012 10:08PM
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JaayLaay
Posts: 939 - Karma: 89

didnt read every post in the thread so if i point out something thats already been pointed out, dont get pissed:

Many of these posts about tightening or loosening gun control are missing the point. We are treating the symptom and not the illness. Both sides have valid arguments. Strict gun control can lead to oppression of the people, and their inability to protect themselves against their oppressors. Mexico is a shining example. No gun control can lead to attainment of guns by those with a proven inability ...
to handle them. Thus leading to the potential for a chaotic disregard for another s life. However, neither of these really address the situation. As a society we now glorify those that create these crimes. According to a forensic psychiatrist, in order to not further propagate such tragedies "don't start a story with sirens blaring", "don't have photographs of the killer", "don't make this 24/7 coverage", "do everything you can, not to make the body count the lead story". By doing this, we are essentially turning this person into a form of antihero, giving other troubled minds a justification to carry out their own ill conceived acts. This is why things like this usually happen in groups. Let us not forget the shootings that just occurred in Portland....As a society we are not becoming more disturbed and more violent, we just televise it more. Mass murders and atrocities have been going on for centuries. They have always happened, and always will. There will always be bad apples. We should worry more about destroying evil and not creating it.

Dec 16 2012 10:30PM
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LIL_WAT
Posts: 1900 - Karma: 475
Very good points.
Dec 17 2012 1:42AM
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Nadia.
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 1,104
There are crazy, fucked up depressed people all over the world. Gun control has and is working better than in the US in countries like Canada, UK, Australia, Switzerland, Japan etc.

How Gun Control is working in Japan:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

Something to consider.

"The United States has about five percent of the total world population but residents of the United States own about 42 percent of all the world's civilian-owned firearms. The homicide rate by firearm is 200 to 800 percent higher in the US than in other advanced countries such as England, France, Australia, and Japan where firearms are more tightly controlled by law"

Just some food for thought.




Dec 17 2012 2:02AM
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C-Burg
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 130
Sorry but call me "redneck, republican, ignorant.. etc" I own guns, that I have responsibly locked up when not in use, but I prefer to be protected from situations that deem necessary. This issue includes gun control but highly transcends gun control.

Dec 17 2012 2:13AM
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andrew.ski
Posts: 368 - Karma: 69
ok well i personally feel this thread got off track when we started getting into my uncle vs your uncle stuff. Anyways I thought that this would be relevant to the OP

http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/halt-the-massacre-of-innocent-children-by-ending-prohibition-on-self-defense-in

Thats basically the liberatarians party take on gun violence lately, and their opinion on why we should allow more gun ownership

interesting read.
Dec 17 2012 2:25AM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
wow, you fucking suck dude.
Dec 17 2012 2:58AM
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stickski
Posts: 1938 - Karma: 1,529
someone didn't read op's link..
Dec 17 2012 5:22AM
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jeR.
Posts: 1325 - Karma: 58
i think the pro-gun self defense argument is total bs, but i'm not a supporter of second amendment rights so im bound to think like that i guess. i just dont think the average civilian has it in him to actually use the gun well when shit is going down, not all americans are trained soldiers used to that kind of shit. anyways though id be hesitant to say ban guns altogether, because, as the drug war has clearly shown, that if the demand for a product/service is there, it will be provided regardless of legality. if americans want guns, they will get them even if they were made illegal. maybe the same argument about drugs applies, even though they are obviously different products. keeping guns legal may make it easier for the gov't to legislate and control them, rather than opening up an even larger black market. however for this to work, the penalties need to be steep and enforcement needs to be strict.... much much more than it already is
Dec 17 2012 10:40AM
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Barf.
Posts: 1188 - Karma: 123
Anyone who thinks guns are only evil killing tools should read some of these stories...

Dec 17 2012 10:59AM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423

somebody's too smart for harvard!

Dec 17 2012 2:14PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
I didnt need to read that whole thing to understand this but it was still a good educational read. People kill people not guns..
Dec 17 2012 2:48PM
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pDails
Posts: 1238 - Karma: 75
This shit is so stupid its silly.

I can't handle the number of people responding to this shit who have no clue of their local guns laws.

Not saying your wrong, but there is lack of education. The majority of people against firearms (that I have encountered) have never even held a gun, let alone fired one. They lack basic knowledge of firearm capabilities and functions and therefore lump them all together. I've seen several status' and other bullshit saying things like "I can't fathom how someone can just buy an automatic weapon. We need more gun control...blah blah blah."

Go take a gun safety class, and read through local and federal laws before you try to tell me anything about gun reform.
Dec 17 2012 3:13PM
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RimJobber
Posts: 3313 - Karma: 10,058
Just to let you know, most guns are semi-auto. Pretty much all clip fed guns, rifles and handguns. Nobody would be willing to give up semi-autos.
Dec 17 2012 3:53PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
I wouldn't go as far as to say MOST, many hunting guns are not semi auto.......But, with that said, it really doesn't matter much as I could shoot a pump or lever action almost as fast as a semi auto anyway so it's kind of pointless to outlaw semi auto.
Dec 17 2012 4:34PM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
Bro, go to Chicago.
Dec 17 2012 4:45PM
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steezywannabeezy
Posts: 990 - Karma: 690
Quoting op (on mobile) "no correlation between more guns in a society creating more violent crime." this is the same conclusion that Michael Moore came to in his 2002/3 film "Bowling for Columbine." he examined Canada, which has way more guns per capita at 7 mil for 10 mil homes. This is because of their hunting industry. Also, he shows that Canadian youths play as many violent video games, watch as many violent movies, etc. as Americans. The problem isn't so much desensitization as it is our nation's historic response to fear. If you are familiar with the movie, refer to the 3-minute cartoon about midway in the movie, satirically summarizing American history. Our response to fear is shooting people. Pilgrims come over and are afraid of Indians. Plantation owners are afraid slaves will revolt. Yankees are afraid plantation owners will succeed. World wars. 9/11. So forth. Moore went to residential areas in Ontario and opened a bunch of people's unlocked front doors. As a nation, we know we are on top, and feel like we have a target on our backs. Somehow this insecurity applies to everyday affairs with normal citizens. The then-prez of the NRA (total asshole, can't remember his name) said the reason was because of our ethnic diversity. Fucking racist. The case study, Canada had basically the same percentage of non-white residents, at about 12 percent. Yes, I think the entertainment industry is poisoning minds with violence, but I don't think that's the main problem. The top two causes are national insecurity and easy-access (gun shows, Walmart, etc.) to firearms. And of course there is the argument that the second amendment was originally purposed for national security, but became outdated and distorted into personal/family security. But Americans have sanctified that document to the point where changing it would be comparable to taking Jesus out of the bible. Yay America.
Dec 17 2012 5:25PM
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steezywannabeezy
Posts: 990 - Karma: 690
Oh, yeah. I highly recommend that movie, even though I'm not Moore's biggest fan. He got K-Mart to stop selling ammunition, so good for him.
Dec 17 2012 5:27PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,885
Because that's all it takes to make your argument valid!
Dec 17 2012 5:33PM
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scrambledeggs
Posts: 380 - Karma: -1,291
second fucking amendment
May 4 2013 10:48PM
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