Right to bear arms?

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@th1337

how do you objectively and fairly determine who is "educated and not a criminal"

it's all or nothing. either people are given access to guns, or they are not. you can't realistically enforce a "you're smart enough to have one, you aren't" type of law.

Dec 14 2012 11:56PM

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Insane

Last time I checked, MURDER by any means (gunshot, stabbing, pillow fight, whatever) was illegal, especially en masse. Therefore, given that the gunman today didn't pay attention to one of the most basic and ubiquitous laws imaginable, no petty law attempting to cut down on the 99% of law abiding gun owners would have prevented today's tragedy, nor would laws preventing guns in schools.

Even if legal gun ownership was made much more difficult, acquisition by illegal means wouldn't be much harder, nor would serious criminals be stopped as they simply don't care.

RIP

Dec 14 2012 11:57PM

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bighomieflock

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This post brings up a valid point. What is the objection against some form of gun detection in the doorway of schools or having at least one trained police officer who knows how to handle a gun fight? Does it just come down to cost?

Dec 14 2012 11:59PM

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Insane

And thats the thing, how would we make it into nothing? how do we keep people from making their own guns, or importing guns from other countries? if it is nothing then there will be no gun registration (since guns are illegal) so we wont know who has any of the guns. How would we stop the cartel and gang fueled violence that comes with another restriction. According to BBC, it is estimated that in the last 6 years over 50000 people have been murdered on account of drug related violence. Think about how those numbers would change if there were a completely new market fueled by all the americans who had their guns taken from them. Think about how many more people would be in jail because of gun possession crimes and how many more gang related murders would happen in our country.

Dec 15 2012 12:04AM

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Insane

the right to bear should not be revoked in light of the recent news. it's a harsh generalization to state otherwise, imo.

if you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have them.

Dec 15 2012 12:04AM

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http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/demay1.html

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Insane

It's about where we draw the line; after all, we could make bulletproof vests compulsory for students of all ages, have bulletproof desks to hide under and deploy a small platoon of 'gunman hunters' at every school on the beat 5 days a week. However, this does not address the causes of mass killings, only the potential outcomes.

Dec 15 2012 12:05AM

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JAHpow

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Crazy Fool

National Sheriff's Association: "There is no valid evidence whatsoever to indicate that depriving law-abiding American citizens of the right to own arms would in any way lessen crime of criminal activity..."

American Federation of Police: "There are many Americans who fear for their lives.They know that often they will have to protect themselves, their own families, and their property. Should these people be disarmed? No, we don't need to disarm our loyal citizens, our friends, and our neighbors. We just need judges with the guts to make the use of a gun in a crime a risk that a few will undertake in the future." Id.

Two Georgia men, attacked by two criminals armed with shotguns, thwarted a criminal attack by turning to his "large magazine" semiautomatic weapon. It was this would-be victim's belief that if he had not had his gun he and his friend would likely be dead today. Bryan Rigsby letter of January 5, 1994. Gary Kleck, Ph.D., The Orange County Register, Sept. 19, 1993.

According to Hamline University School of Law, Professor Joe Olson, "the laws should target those who use firearms to commit crimes, rather than attempting to restrict the sale and possession of guns among law-abiding citizens." Id. at 5A. Professor Olson further stated that, "'All the gun control we have is virtually useless.' You can control me, and it won't do any good.

"Sixty-five million law-abiding gun owners are not the cause of crime, denying them their rights is not the solution." 140 CONG. REC. H3063-05, H3089 (daily ed. May 5, 1994) (statement of Rep. Brewster).

These were just a few excerpts I found.

Just so you know where I stand, and I don't want to argue, I believe less gun control would in turn reduce crime. More law-abiding citizens with firearms in their homes and partaking in carry and conceal would deter criminals from committing crimes since they know they would have a higher chance of dealing with people who are armed. I also believe, like much of what the above article talks about, that tougher justice should be brought to those who partake in gun related crimes, this would also deter gun crime since the criminal would know the penalty is greater.

Dec 15 2012 12:08AM

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SnorkBoard

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Loner

Dude have you ever met a rancher? there sure as hell going to know where the safety is.

But anyways you used the same argument in you defense as you did in trying to nullify my statement. I'd much rather have a hand gun then a bat against an armed assailant.

I cant find the exact clip I'm looking for but if you've seen this episode then you probably remember Cartman yelling in the phone about how the guy isn't doing shit mean while some guys in the house raping his mom, its like the same thing obviously I'd want to call the police but wouldn't you want to have something to protect yourself in the mean time?

Dec 15 2012 12:10AM

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Insane

Im not sure why there isnt anything, but it could have to do with not wanting to make school feel more like a prison than it already does. Imagine how kids would be changed if every schoolday for 13 years they had to walk through something like airport security. It would be pretty weird. Cost probably has something to do with it as well, as education in the US is already poorly funded.

Furthermore, if they had to do that for schools, then it could spread to everything else. It would be crazy if everytime you went to the movies or to the mall you walked through something like airport security.

Dec 15 2012 12:10AM

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SnorkBoard

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Loner

sorry

Dec 15 2012 12:11AM

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Insane

This guy nails it.

Dec 15 2012 12:12AM

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SnorkBoard

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Loner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrPhUxCO4rE

k I'm out of here.

Dec 15 2012 12:15AM

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Crazy Fool

The United States has had as many school shootings since May of 2009 as Europe and Canada (combined) have had since 1902.

The simple fact is that the "how often does it really happen?" argument is dead. If you are able to list multiple massacres that occurred through gun violence within the last 6 months, something is wrong with the system.

20 innocent American children are dead tonight because we can't control gun violence. But that's ok, we can just add that number to the heap and move on as we are.

Dec 15 2012 12:19AM

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skisalot111

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Ridiculous

read my post or end the bullshit, this type of stuff will continue to occur if action is not taken, end the politic bullshit what if's. politics in this country are the problem and not the solution either do nothing and this will continue to occur or end the bullshit whining and crying about it ok, this should have never happened in the first place, it did though because are government is blind ok. its as almost if our government wants this to happen, its happened more than enough times before .either do something to fix the problem or do nothing at all and stop complaining, im sorry to be honest but wake up ppl. why is this continuing to occur over and over again and nothing is being done to fix the problem.

what happened in Connecticut is a goddamn joke, ok . school shootings are a thing of the past, it should have never happened in the first place we should have learned from Columbine back in 99, how many goddamn shootings does it take to get bills and legislation passed to protect students. honestly, we have the technology to have some type of gun sensors in schools put in place to alert authorities and protect students. Why don;t schools have security, metal detects, ect. it doesnt matter if the school is in NYC or if its in a small town, these type of shootings happen everywhere. every school should be equipped with security and technology to protect students. first off there are way to many gun laws in the usa as it is, heres an example, if a single person in that movie theater in colorado had a permit to carry a disclosed weapon that clown could have been taken out and possibly nobody would have been harmed. SCHOOL SHOOTING ARE A THING OF THE PAST, WHY ISNT OUR GOVERNMENT DOING ANYTHING TO PROTECT US, HOW MANY GODDAMN SHOOTINGS DOES IT TAKE TO IMPLEMENT SECURITY TO PROTECT US, ITS FUCKING RIDICULOUS. this was 100 percent preventable and it should have never happened why don't people seem to leaner??? why isn't our government doing anything ??? its happened more than enough times for change to be implemented

Dec 15 2012 12:22AM

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scandy101

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Ridiculous

well whatever's wrong it isnt guns. guns and gun laws havent changed much in 100 years, guns havent gotten much more effective at killing in the last 60 years. yet with our gun laws and culture remaining the same for the most part, we have had a huge increase in shootings like this. so something else is obviously wrong. how many school shootings did we have before columbine?

Dec 15 2012 12:33AM

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Addict

Most retarded thing I've ever read. Fuck your freedom.... How many people were killed with handguns this year in the UK... 8. How many in the US-nearly 11000... Stick your freedom up your cunt. Right to bear arms? Fuck off.

Dec 15 2012 12:38AM

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@th1337

no, not really. i'd rather flee than engage in a gunfight where i hope i win.

guns dont guarantee safety. avoiding them does. we can't avoid guns in society today because they're everyone. take them away and the only guns you have to worry about are the ones obtained illegally, which is much better than what we have to worry about right now.

Dec 15 2012 12:41AM

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Crazy Fool

enough that the wikipedia article for school shootings in the US is broken up by the decade, whereas Europe has 1 subsection for the entire continent.

Dec 15 2012 12:45AM

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61 mass shootings since columbine... Great record... Like no other country on earth. I live in Texas as well..So I get the whole gun argument but This is just getting fucking stupid now... Seriously America-what you gonna do to stop some angry, overly emotional (most Americans) kid from gunning down (insert large popular public place here) just because he has some irrelevant grudge...

Let me guess-firearm industry is huge-nobody is Gonna take that down. I almost expect at least 5 mass shooting incidents a year now in the USA... Should that be normal? How can you live like that?

Dec 15 2012 12:47AM

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Insane

Honestly, Id be more scared if the only guns were in the hands of criminals. We wouldnt know the criminals have them, and like I said earlier a black market for guns will cause much more violence that we need to be worried about. Drugs kill people just like guns, and we are way more scared of drugs when mexican cartels and gangs are wrecking shit than we would be if they were legal (and killing people that way).

Dec 15 2012 12:47AM

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Insane

Well if you're that dogmatic and passionate about living in a police state, go for it.

Who cares about civil liberties anyway, right?

While we are 'fucking' with freedom, I reckon we should ban cars too, seeing as 32,367 people died from their use in 2011 alone. After all, we can just use public transport.

Dec 15 2012 12:48AM

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@th1337

i like that point.

but hey, why would we want to be like them! they're all liberal dbags drowning in taxes from the social programs, bla bla blaa, MURICA!!

or maybe, they have it right and we're afraid to admit it?

Dec 15 2012 12:48AM

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Crazy Fool

stop the comparisons to the drug war.

Here's the difference...you can smuggle drugs in a whole variety of ways. Some you can even grow right in your own house.

A gun is not a drug. Reduce the number of guns, and they're harder to acquire. You cannot smuggle that many as easily, you cannot grow them. Once they go away, they go away for good.

I'm not pro-banning all guns. I just think they should be ridiculously hard to acquire.

fewer guns means fewer guns for everybody.

Dec 15 2012 12:51AM

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@th1337

what are you scared of? what do criminals give a fuck about you?

you have ways to protect yourself that dont require guns, and you're probably going to bring more harm to yourself with one, as most people would.

i dont even know what youre saying about drugs and shit. so ill just politely nod my head and move along.

Dec 15 2012 12:51AM

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andrewblackie

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Loner

Why is it that almost every other developed country has proper gun regulation apart from the US? The statistics do the talking - America has more shootings per capita then any other developed country, you cannot argue that they don't correlate.

I wish Americans would wake up, THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO BEAR ARMS, this is not the 1800s any more, come and join the rest of us in the real world. The people suggesting that arming yourself is the solution to preventing these tragedies should be ashamed of their ignorance.

Dec 15 2012 12:53AM

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Lol. Typical American respone-no compromise, no middle ground.... Just like your politics... Relating traffic deaths to pre medicated mass gun homicide is magic... Gold star for you... You special Special boy. Keep sniffing your glue. I'm sure the guy that killed all those kids today was grateful for the opportunity his civil liberties gave him. You tit.

Dec 15 2012 12:53AM

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Insane

Im scared of more violence and death in the world. Its not fun stuff. The logic about the drugs thing is pretty simple. There is a tremendous amount of crime (most crime actually) because drugs are illegal (in case you havent noticed Mexico and gang issues). If we were to make guns illegal, the same people killing over drugs would have another thing to kill over, which would be gun trafficking because its something else that people in the US cant get legally. The amount of violence that would come from this would be huge, while the criminals who were planning to kill could still get there guns.

I found someone else with the same idea: http://www.gazette.com/articles/control-142358-gun-war.html

Dec 15 2012 12:59AM

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@th1337

yep, and ill take my chances with the criminal masterminds with ties to the black market or whatever you're all proposing as a supposedly easy way of acquiring weapons.. or even leave them to those police guys or whatever theyre called.

if you feel unsafe, get an alarm, or move.

if you think shooting guns is cool, go do something else to be cool.

life goes on without guns, especially for the people who would otherwise be dead thanks to the danger of incorrect use and escalation in violence that's so common today.

you don't need a gun, you want one because you're a fucking pussy.

i'm done posting about this shit.

Dec 15 2012 12:59AM

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Insane

First of all, nobody ever gave him a civil liberty to murder; civil liberties are predicated on the idea of leaving other people to enjoy their rights, the most important one being the right to LIFE. (Well done buddy!)

By the way, I'm not American whatsoever so you're completely wrong once again, mate. However, I do like how you blindly made an assumption without checking into it. Do you apply your lack of research and logic to all aspects of your life, or just NS?

I'll leave the name-calling to you, it's not really my thing...

Dec 15 2012 1:02AM

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theabortionator

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Play Ball

Why do I have to not do drugs because somebody od, why do I have to not have a gun because somebody got shot.

It's not one size fits all.

Why not make a curfew of 10 pm for everyone. If people were inside by then maybe they wouldn't be getting robbed, raped and killed in the middle of the night.

I mean fuck, why not right?

Cars are dangerous as fuck, look how many idiots are whipping around in those things, lets ban that shit to. Cars kill a fuck ton of people.

Look at all the fat people, lets ban fast food because it leads to obesity and ban it.

Fuck people who drive safely, fuck people who eat responsibly, lets just ban everything that could possibly harm somebody. Wouldn't the world be great then?

Dec 15 2012 1:05AM

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JAHpow

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Crazy Fool

....yeah...I'm just going to repost this....

Dec 15 2012 1:07AM

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Insane

"Im scared of more violence and death in the world. Its not fun stuff. The logic about the drugs thing is pretty simple. There is a tremendous amount of crime (most crime actually) because drugs are illegal (in case you havent noticed Mexico and gang issues). If we were to make guns illegal, the same people killing over drugs would have another thing to kill over, which would be gun trafficking because its something else that people in the US cant get legally. The amount of violence that would come from this would be huge, while the criminals who were planning to kill could still get there guns.

I found someone else with the same idea: http://www.gazette.com/articles/control-142358-gun-war.htm/articles/control-142358-gun-war.html "

To continue with that, I have no worries about my personal safety and I never said I did. In fact, I live in Canada and I could care less about the "rights" to have a gun. If you believe that getting rid of guns will lessen violence you're an idiot.

Dec 15 2012 1:09AM

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You argument about cars warranted such a response-that really was terrible. Come back when you have a more intelligent rebuttal. You seem to be defending a gun culture in America... A country I live in.... And i am sick of hearing stupid rationales like yours for unmitigated access to high power fire arms. If youre British... You should be ashamed... Especially after 1996's horrors. What logic is required when 20 kids are dead exactly? I'm older than you, have personal connections to dunblane... Anyone remotely defending this shit or the right to bear arms will get shit from me. Deal with it.

Dec 15 2012 1:17AM

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Crazy Fool

who gives a shit if gun dealers kill other gun dealers.

Dec 15 2012 1:18AM

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Insane

Only way to stop obesity is by BANNING SPOONS!!! smh

There certainly have to be more hurdles regarding the fashion in which gun owners obtain/retain their right to bear, but removing them all together doesn't make sense to me. These psycho killers aren't fair representation of gun owners, but does prove that whatever system is currently in place, might not be working up to snuff.

Dec 15 2012 1:19AM

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Insane

horrendous grammar on my part

Dec 15 2012 1:21AM

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Crazy Fool

ok

Dec 15 2012 1:21AM

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Insane

Maybe the US shouldnt, but it seems to care about the warfare happening in Mexico and gang killings in states. Thats why most of the people in jail are drug dealers killing or selling to other people in the drug business.

More people breaking the law is also more the US has to spend on taxes for enforcement and keeping people in prison.

Dec 15 2012 1:26AM

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Insane

i think there's more to it than that (i.e., culture, standard of living, environment).

Dec 15 2012 1:27AM

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Crazy Fool

nope

Dec 15 2012 1:28AM

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Insane

For starters, if I lived in Hawaii, chances are I would be preoccupied with stuff other than violence.

Dec 15 2012 1:34AM

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Insane

No, I'm not British either.

As for the gun 'culture', that is not something I necessarily support because I view that as the problem as opposed to the right to bear arms. They are two different things.

Regarding car deaths, I was merely expanding on your (il)logic that goes something like DEATHS??=BAN!! If this is not correct, then I would love to hear a response that doesn't include the statistic comparing gun deaths in the UK to the US, seeing as you have now decided you don't like death statistics (unless of course, they support YOUR argument).

My rationale is in no way stupid. I suggest you gain a better understanding ( or any understanding for that matter) about natural rights, especially that of self defense, since you clearly have very little concept of their importance.

You ask what 'logic is required' ; logic at this time is as important as ever. Banning something of significance for millions of people because of one crackpot is neither fair nor logical. (You specified this one incident)

If you have an emotional response to this topic then there is no point furthering this discussion; having an in-built bias is never going to help a logical debate progress.

Dec 15 2012 1:36AM

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Crazy Fool

what about nyc

Dec 15 2012 1:36AM

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XtRemE11

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No Life

funny, i was just talking to a friend who moved here from the UK 2 years ago, started out in Atlanta, then here, he was saying how amazed he was and still is at the little crime we have. he had forgotten to lock his car the night before and said how in pretty much any part of the UK if you did that your car would be stolen. and saying how much more positive and friendly we are here. yet, we kill each other a lot more. kinda strange how that is..

Dec 15 2012 1:40AM

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JAHpow

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Crazy Fool

umm, ok. What are the actual gun death rates then?

Also, and I know you're going to think this is a stupid excuse, but this is coming from msnbc, probably the most liberal news source in America and they get their sources from liberal organizations and what not. Same goes for FOX and their conservative sources, so that's why I don't really trust the media anymore.

I'll trust police organizations on this subject though, as I believe they have the experience, research, and facts to be able to address this delicate subject intelligently. This is why I used, for my main two excerpts, quotes from police organizations in my first post.

Dec 15 2012 1:46AM

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Crazy Fool

it's definitely like that in the UK. They steal everything and the people in general hate each other. They have crime, but it's of a completely different and incomparable nature.

personally I would rather have my car be stolen than got shot while working or something to that effect.

Dec 15 2012 1:51AM

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Insane

Theyve got dem knives: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/nyregion/28knives.html?_r=0

I like this line "It was possible, but hard to document, Mr. Browne said, that measures like undercover gun-trafficking investigations and interrogations, in which people arrested for lower level crimes are asked to provide information on gun cases, had led to the rise in knife killings and the drop in gun slayings."

Dec 15 2012 1:53AM

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Crazy Fool

Dec 15 2012 1:54AM

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