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Lionel Messi, the greatest ever?

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jibopoly23
Posts: 151 - Karma: 185
Messi has just broke Mullers record of scoring 85 goals on one calender year, by scoring 2 goals in the first 30 minutes against Betis. This will inevitably lead to talk about him being the greatest football player ever. I've never seen anyone better (not seen enough footage of Maradona, Eusbaeo, Best, Pele, and Cruyff play. Only clips). Zidane's the only modern day player that i can think of who is close to him.

I know there is a good amount of "soccer" fans on newschoolers, who will have an opinion on this.

Dec 9 2012 4:16PM
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will_powder
Posts: 3194 - Karma: 5,445
How bout Henry in his gunner days?
Dec 9 2012 4:18PM
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Rafiki
Posts: 3858 - Karma: 2,251
i thought david beckham was already known as the best around, no?
Dec 9 2012 4:20PM
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TooTanked
Posts: 171 - Karma: 9
. Legend
Dec 9 2012 4:21PM
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Lucas
Posts: 4881 - Karma: 1,575
Balotelli.
Dec 9 2012 4:25PM
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Big.Bird
Posts: 563 - Karma: 180
.
Dec 9 2012 4:26PM
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HWW
Posts: 3084 - Karma: 3,436
lol
Dec 9 2012 4:27PM
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Bumblesteeze
Posts: 3092 - Karma: 748
I don't think he's the greatest ever since he hasn't won anything on the international stage.
Dec 9 2012 4:29PM
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Lucas
Posts: 4881 - Karma: 1,575
Thats like saying if pele was from (insert country that never does good internationally) he would be considered worse then he his.
Dec 9 2012 4:32PM
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jibopoly23
Posts: 151 - Karma: 185
Henry and Beckham were both very good, but none of them have really ever been considered the best in the world at anytime. Even when Henry was in his prime, Ronaldinho was probably better.
Fair point about on an international stage, but the Champions League has probably surpassed the World cup in terms of Quality. But yeah he doesn't seem to be as good with Argentina, still has a decent goal scoring record but.
Dec 9 2012 4:35PM
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Bumblesteeze
Posts: 3092 - Karma: 748
I just think if you're considered to be the greatest, you need to be able to lead your team to the world cup.
How bad can Argentina be? They're usually a good team.

Dec 9 2012 4:37PM
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maximiliaan
Posts: 7711 - Karma: 2,857
maradona, cruijff, etc... its pretty damn hard to compare them with messi if you look at the field, shoes, balls (soccerballs), etc it all changed alot.
Dec 9 2012 4:38PM
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jibopoly23
Posts: 151 - Karma: 185
Good Point it's pretty much impossible to compare players from different eras, but it will inevitably happen. Cruyff said this about him, "He's incomaprable. He's in a different league."
Dec 9 2012 4:47PM
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jibopoly23
Posts: 151 - Karma: 185
sorry for dub post, but just found this on BBC sport.
  • Most goals in a calendar year - 86
  • Most goals in a season: 68
  • Most goals in a European Cup season: 14 (jointly with José Altafini)
  • Most goals in a La Liga season: 50
  • Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8
  • Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 (with Gerd Mueller)
  • Most goals in a single European Cup game: 5
  • Most goals scored in Spanish Super Cup: 10
  • Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 10
  • Most goals in Club World Cup: 4 (held jointly with Denilson)
  • Barcelona's top goalscorer in all official competitions: 281
  • Barcelona's record goalscorer in Champions League: 56
  • Most La Liga hat-tricks: 15
Dec 9 2012 4:54PM
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Leafs2323
Posts: 355 - Karma: 195
Pele or Ronaldhino. they were better then Messi is but Messi is one of the best pur strikers to ever play the game
Dec 9 2012 5:01PM
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RedEyeTheJedi
Posts: 443 - Karma: 30
Henry will always be one of my favorite players. I remember back in 4th 5th grade all my friends were into soccer and Arsenal was the team. Then I went to france in 06 and experienced what it is like to be in a country that loves soccer When France won the semi final it was crazy. Henry was one of the best players soccer has had. He also isn't and idiot pussy like Christiano.



Dec 9 2012 5:02PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
funny because messi isn't a pure striker. he's nowhere close.

hopefully you're just trolling.
Dec 9 2012 5:24PM
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Leafs2323
Posts: 355 - Karma: 195
Well considering I dislike Messi a lot...... you can imagine
Dec 9 2012 5:36PM
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*Dos*Planker*
Posts: 2983 - Karma: 168
Five words: Chuck Norris
Dec 9 2012 5:38PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
i suppose he embarrassed your team a few too many times for your liking?
Dec 9 2012 5:49PM
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DIX~
Posts: 4695 - Karma: 6,502
tom walish
Dec 9 2012 5:51PM
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coolflash8
Posts: 3171 - Karma: 2,048
i fucking love balo, but messi is on another level
Dec 9 2012 5:52PM
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trilliam
Posts: 157 - Karma: 46
lol not even close.
Dec 9 2012 5:55PM
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Leafs2323
Posts: 355 - Karma: 195
nah man, my team is Liverpool. not a huge La Liga fan unless it is a Barca vs Real game. just not a huge fan of him at all. and being a Liverpool fan has its own embarresment this season
Dec 9 2012 6:04PM
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jibopoly23
Posts: 151 - Karma: 185
Exactly. Which probably makes the record more remarkable, as he isn't just a goal scorer or a classic "number 9" (not talking about his shirt number).
Dec 9 2012 6:09PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
but why do you dislike hims severely? there is a difference between not being a fan of someone and disliking them.
Dec 9 2012 6:10PM
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Leafs2323
Posts: 355 - Karma: 195
Idk man. just one of those people that I do not like
Dec 9 2012 6:14PM
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Laurent.
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 25,313
Zlatan coming in!

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Dec 9 2012 6:14PM
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LoathesRaisins
Posts: 3612 - Karma: 4,735
Pele
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Dec 9 2012 6:18PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
yeah. success breeds jealousy, as they say. must be tough to watch messi play so well when liverpool, and the epl, are sucking so hard.
Dec 9 2012 6:19PM
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Leafs2323
Posts: 355 - Karma: 195
trust me you don't got to tell me hahah
Dec 9 2012 6:20PM
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Lucas
Posts: 4881 - Karma: 1,575
Your an ass, you act like theres never been a person you just don't like... That being said I fucking love messi.
Dec 9 2012 6:24PM
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Leafs2323
Posts: 355 - Karma: 195
This.......
Dec 9 2012 6:25PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
honestly, no, i generally don't dislike people for no real reason. and besides, i'm just messing around.
Dec 9 2012 6:29PM
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Rafiki
Posts: 3858 - Karma: 2,251
lol at you taking that post seriously
Dec 9 2012 6:44PM
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TheBlueMtSkier
Posts: 909 - Karma: 42
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Dec 9 2012 6:46PM
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Lucas
Posts: 4881 - Karma: 1,575
"generally" That means you have before and probably will again, it just doesn't happen very often. Also, I didn't mean for no reason at all I just meant for maybe a small detail that shouldn't bother you but does.
Dec 9 2012 6:46PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
"generally" as in i can't think of a time that i have disliked someone, especially someone i've never met, for no significant reason. but you're right, i misspoke. but like i said, i was kidding around. relax, man.
Dec 9 2012 7:12PM
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trilliam
Posts: 157 - Karma: 46
Dec 9 2012 7:12PM
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Bluenose
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Dec 9 2012 7:24PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7472 - Karma: 11,421
How can you forget less known legends such as Di Stefano and Puskas? They were incredible, but it was post-WWII/Intro Cold War and everyone seems to neglect them?

Also, in my opinion, Zidane>Messi. That man could make anyone better. Messi is surrounded with talent such as Xavi, Villa, Iniesta, etc. Messi may get the goals, but without Xavi or Iniesta, the cogs dont run quite as cleanly. Just look at his international form. Anyone who thinks Argentina is a bad National team needs to get their head examined. Higuain,Messi, Zabaletta, COlocinni, Aguero, Mascherano, etc.


Dec 9 2012 7:24PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
who is forgetting them?

messi makes players better, too. and that's such a weak argument, saying messi wouldn't be where he is now without his teammates. you can say that for literally anyone, it's a team sport. where would france have been in 1998 without their defense? they almost surely wouldn't have won the world cup. their defense in that tournament was far more impressive than their offense. and dont try and tell me that juventus, and real madrid didn't have talent. hell, with real madrid zidane was surrounded by ronaldo, figo, beckham, raul, roberto carlos etc. and they certainly weren't a great team.
Dec 9 2012 7:33PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7472 - Karma: 11,421
Im not arguing theyre better than Messi, but people often forget them when considering what they did in their time.

Look at Messi's international play compared to his club play. Far from stellar IMO when you want to label him as the greatest ever. Compare him to Zidane, Pele, heck, even Beckham in international play, and his stats do not compare. My argument is that he is a much better player due to Xavi, Iniesta, and the talent supplied to him. Compared to Zidane at the age of 34, who led his team to the WC finals, Messi has not done anything on the international stage. You want to talk about the greatest ever, look at BOTH areas of play. You want to know why I included Puskas as one of the greatest? (Copied from Wikipedia)
He scored 84 goals in 85 international matches for Hungary,[4] and 514 goals in 529 matches in the Hungarian and Spanish leagues.[4] He became Olympic champion in 1952 and was a World Cup finalist in 1954. He won three European Cups (1959, 1960, 1966), 10 national championships (5Hungarian & 5 Spanish Primera División) and 8 top individual scoring honors

This is an incredible standard. How many people know of a great player from Hungary? You cannot say Messi is the greatest until he shows up on the international stage. Till then, he should not be labeled the greatest ever.
Dec 9 2012 7:45PM
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.Roockley.
Posts: 3864 - Karma: 4,078
it took muller 60 games to get 85 goals, he has a better goals per game ratio than messi

still, messi is unreal
Dec 9 2012 7:47PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
again, who is forgetting them? and i'm not saying messi is the best player ever. he's only 25, lets let him finish his career before we decide.

hahahaha beckham better than messi in international play? what has england done since '66? i like beckham just fine, but yikes. you're right, messi hasn't won anything at international level yet. he's still young, though, and has been playing much, much better with them recently. just because he didn't score at the world cup in 2010 doesn't mean he wasn't by far argentina's best player, which he was, and if maradona had any idea how to coach they wouldn't have been run over by the germans. but you're right, people will always hold it against him if he doesn't win a world cup or come close to it

i know who puskas is, i don't know why you keep assuming i don't.

where would barca have been last year without messi's 50 goals and 15 assists in la liga?
Dec 9 2012 8:04PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
true, but, if you're bringing that up, muller did score 12 goals in a tournament that was only played that year that was thrown together in place of the olympics
Dec 9 2012 8:06PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,297
Ronaldo (Brazil)
Rondaldhino
Pele
Maradona

All come to mind before messi

Dec 9 2012 8:07PM
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uosdwiSrjewoH
Posts: 4220 - Karma: 122
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Dec 9 2012 8:09PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7472 - Karma: 11,421
I am not saying you dont know, but I am assuming that the majority of people who read my posts in this thread do not know. If anyone argrees with my ideas they can piggyback off them with the supplied information. Just trying to keep a conversation going with that argument. I know you havent argued Messi is the greatest, but I am trying to counter why he shouldnt be considered one of the greatest...yet.

I am saying Beckham has done more than Messi in international play. He has taken his team past the first round in every competition (I think?) and supplied goals and assists. Messi, on the other hand, has lacked the cutting edge we see in club play. Im not arguing that Beckham is a better PLAYER than Messi, but he has done more than Messi on the international level. He has performed while Messi has not. Yes, Messi is young, but I think people calling him the greatest ever is very premature. Once he wins/performs on the international stage, he can be considered one of the greatest ever.

Take Messi out of the equation for Barca and they still would have been in the top 3 in the league. I honestly think the creative genius of Xavi and Iniesta is severely underestimated by the majority of fans (and this is coming from a Real Madrid fan). They may not have won the league (Real Madrid was on an entirely different level), but they still would not have struggled.




Dec 9 2012 8:13PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
like i said, even though messi didn't score he was still by far argentina's best player at wc 2010, but i guess you're right, beckham has been a rare light for the very dense darkness that is england.

look at this. http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431 last year, without messi, barca would have fallen to 6th place instead of second, so, yes, they would have struggled. and iniesta is my favorite player in the world so don't think i'm just underestimating him and xavi.
Dec 9 2012 8:28PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7472 - Karma: 11,421
Personally, I find it hard to argue that one player affects the outcome of an entire season by looking at stats.

Think about it this way

Player A is Messi
Player B is X

Messi may be there to score a goal that player X would not be. But without Messi, how would that goal have formed? Player X also may score a goal that Messi missed/may not have set up. Its too strong a variable to account for, as it is with any player. You have to take in account that entire games may be played differently without a certain player.

Dec 9 2012 8:38PM
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