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The state of women's skiing

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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
I have an observation, then a question. Why is women's freeskiing where it is? We have recently all seen women who don't train year round do things that would challenge those that do:
https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/720487/ https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/720515/

and i don't understand why women haven't gotten to this point sooner. Female gymnasts and ice skaters can do flips and spins that rival men's freeskiing, so why have women fallen so far behind? Is it a lack of corporate support? Courses designed solely for men (which i saw suggested by Kaya and Sarah in a freekier article)? Or possibly the grim reality that maybe today's top pro's just aren't that good? Im not trying to sound like an asshole, but womens skiing shouldn't be 5-7 years behind men's. Women's aerials aren't. I for one would love to see a point where a setup 360 and a cork 9 didn't win a women's halfpipe run, and a cork 9 wasn't the best trick in a slopestyle run. Thoughts?
Nov 27 2012 6:04AM
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theschneidler
Posts: 2099 - Karma: 355
I think it's because they can win a competition with smaller tricks, much smaller in some cases. If you can win doing something simple, why push yourself to progress with the risk of injury?
Nov 27 2012 7:18AM
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ohboy
Posts: 1177 - Karma: 2,528
That's why they haven't progressed. Because of the big question:

Why push yourself?


Nov 27 2012 7:21AM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
then why didn't men's stay low risk, low reward? Now its obviously too late, but whats keeping women from undergoing that same push that men did?
Nov 27 2012 7:26AM
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FUUUCK
Posts: 18426 - Karma: 4,888
There's more competition for men, plain and simple. No physical aspect of skiing overwhelmingly favours men, it's all psychological.


Women obviously can ski at a level close to, if not equal to the guys, we're starting to see glimpses of it, I know of at least four occasions in the couple years that a girl has thrown some sort of double flip/cork. Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get to the point where women and men are equal until they can compete against each other, but right now the ladies are so far behind that it would just mean the end of women in competitions.

Nov 27 2012 7:27AM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7482 - Karma: 36,051
There are more men in the sport so progression is faster, no not the only reason but definitely contributes.
Nov 27 2012 7:46AM
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midwestpowhunter
Posts: 2198 - Karma: 189
kelly is better than all of the pros competing. sorry to all you 20 somethings.....
Nov 27 2012 8:45AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
do you guys think that progression is purely influenced by the competition scene ?
Nov 27 2012 8:51AM
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Mr.Sloth
Posts: 5091 - Karma: 13,469
Then how can you explain urban? or backcountry?



I think that girls might lack the innate need to one-up each other.
Nov 27 2012 10:12AM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
Women are not dumb. People always seem to forget that but I know very few women who are as reckless and willing to go out and toss their body around as all my friends and I.
Nov 27 2012 10:23AM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
and thats not even just strictly skiing, I mean general recklessness.
Nov 27 2012 10:24AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
so can you only progress/push the limit of your sport by being reckless ?
Nov 27 2012 10:44AM
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NotGhood
Posts: 2809 - Karma: 1,255
Well a triple flip 70 feet in the air flying 100feet at 80mph is pretty reckless is it not? So is dropping off the roof of a building onto a rail.
Nov 27 2012 10:52AM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
No but it pushes progression a lot, especially in the pre airbag, water ramp and trampoline era. I have friends who toss tricks way beyond their "skill level" and bail super hard but this leads them to being able to do that trick more safely in the future.
Nov 27 2012 10:56AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
sure, there's an inherent danger linked to our sport, but i don't think you'd have to be 'reckless', at least not to such an extent that 'recklessness' would be the key difference between women and men that would explain the difference in high level riding ....
Nov 27 2012 11:09AM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
I honestly think that it is. Its the same in any sport, men are straight up more apt to take risks.

You can even see it in everyday life, why is mens driving insurance so much more expensive than womens? Because they take more risks

In our sport taking risks and being "reckless" = progression.
Nov 27 2012 11:16AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
interesting thoughts ....

anyone else want to chime in on this matter ?
maybe one of the pink names ?
Nov 27 2012 11:18AM
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steezerampage
Posts: 2171 - Karma: 214
I would just like to say that I love skiing, I also love women, and I also enjoy watching some of top women skiers out there more then the men, because sometimes its nice to watch a smooth k fed instead of 30,000 switch ups on a rail
Nov 27 2012 11:37AM
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404404
Posts: 11358 - Karma: 21,034
I have some theory's on all of this.

One being that girls skiing together kills progression.

Nov 27 2012 11:50AM
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blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
Here's my post from the other thread that's also beating this dead horse:

Women have proven that they can train their bodies to perform at similar levels to men in many disciplines. Therefore, the boundaries are sociological.

We can observe sociological boundaries in sports across more than just gender. Consider football. The NFL is full of black players, yet there have only been a handful of black punters in the history of the game. Can this be explained by African Americans lacking the physical skills required to punt? No. But, their culture accords little to no importance to the position. Or take swimming; the same reasoning applies.

When we look at who practices which sports, and who excels at them, it is almost always a group that has incorporated the activity into their disposition.
Nov 27 2012 12:09PM
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R.Fahey
Posts: 8602 - Karma: 539
I have the same theory. If 5 girls are skiing together, there might be an off chance of one of them doing something new, and something above a 7.
If girls skied with and compared themselves only to the guys, and blocked out what other females were doing, they would progress much faster.

And, I hope no one gives that "Our bodies are different. We're not as strong, We have hips, we get hurt easier, etc." That may contribute to 1% of it, but the other 99% is mental.
The fastest progressing female in skiing is a child with limited muscle (Kelly Sildaru). And, I've seen 10 year old boys that weigh 80 pounds do shit that is years beyond the current progression of female skiing. Most of the top pros are stronger and spend more time in the gym than the majority of the people I know that are good skiers.

Nov 27 2012 12:10PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
At least skiings not surfing. Kind of odd because Krisi Leskinin(I fucking hate her) and Sarah had FHM spreads. I stumbled across this a few weeks ago. Red Bull sends 2 of their girls to panama. Posts 20+ pics, only 1 of a girl standing on a surfboard. I have nothing wrong with hot chicks but it's just like calling porn stars actresses. These girls are supposedly paid becuase they surf good, not because they look good.

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/surfing-girls-carissa-moore-guna-yala-photostory-021243268231147

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/SURFING-GIRLS-CARISSA-MOORE-STEPS-INTO-THE-UNKNOWN,-PART-II-PHOTOSTORY-021243267672829

Anyway, a lot of good questions in this thread. I'll tackle some or all of them later.
Nov 27 2012 12:11PM
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FightClub27
Posts: 486 - Karma: 416
This exactly, if you say that doing a 450 onto a rail isn't reckless I think you're crazy. now obviously there are people that are really good at it and hardly ever mass it up but when you say im going to go off a jump, spin and land on a metal bar, that just seems like a bad idea. why are you nervious or scared before trying a new trick, that is because there is a risk of getting hurt, yet you still go for it and try it, which is a reckless decision and men take more risk and as a result, progress much faster
Nov 27 2012 1:56PM
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katrina
Posts: 2395 - Karma: 15,192
this is so true, girls literally talk each other out of trying things, which is why i stick with my fellas for the most part who tell me to sack up and not be a pussy. but idk i grew up in a family that never stressed sports, they stressed getting an education and finding a husband haha
Nov 27 2012 3:19PM
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KLovelace
Posts: 2118 - Karma: 289
I don't want to get a boo boo, OK?
Nov 27 2012 4:36PM
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ski0
Posts: 2321 - Karma: 5,370
1. The dont have balls. Literally, testosterone makes you take crazy risks to impress girls/peers.

2. The leaders in the sport (Kaya and co.) are currently getting lots of sponsorships, and comp wins without people challenging them, and forcing progression. Whereas on the mens side, its getting super comeitive.


3. Women are progressing, just alot slower. I dont think they are as behind as everyone thinks, its just that men have progressed insanely fast in the past 3-4 years, and women are about to follow. Especially with the olympics coming up, which will progress womens Comp tricks like crazy .
Nov 27 2012 4:48PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
I think this and blindside's post are both two parts of a possible explanation.

It isn't so much about the immediate risk, as it is that there needs to be a few people who push the boundaries of the sport so that everyone else knows that these things are possible. It's not so much that "Jon just invented the kang flip, so now I have to go learn it to be better than/equal to him", it's more like "Oh, this is possible", now I can go learn this too! We saw this with B&E too: suddenly, people started doing a lot more tailpresses and truckslides.
But we don't see that on the women's side, because of what blindside said: the sociological barriers that keep the women who have the mental drive to push the sport off the hill, and doing other sports instead. I think some part of it may be intimidation: that this sport is SO dominated by men in every way--participation, contests, media exposure, etc., that women feel intimidated, exactly how men may feel about ballet or nursing (these may be bad examples).
And this applies to almost all sports, but especially action sports. I think women will get there, but it will take longer. Gymnastics started out as almost all male, but women caught up. I think it's because of men having more of a predisposition to explore the boundaries of what's possible, as well as societal constraints that force women's thinking away from that.
People tend to follow the herd, no what's between their legs.

Thanks to blindisde and Link for giving me this inspiration.
Nov 27 2012 5:06PM
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uberalles
Posts: 52 - Karma: 46
The situation is that sports like gymnastics and figure skating have governing organizations that provide funding, coaching and guidelines. They are "organized sports", therefore, if you join gymnastics or figure skating you get practice time and a coach.This has gone on for decades. They are sports where a Mom or Dad can drop their kid off a couple times a week, or they can get as involved as they want to be.

The freeski industry, has not really had governing bodies until recently. Therefore, there has been no government support, coaching, guidelines, or promotion until recently. The majority of skiers become skiers because their family skis, it's generally not a sport where kids can be dropped off and picked up later. There is not a lot of public transport to the ski hills either. Therefore, the access (not to mention cost) to skiing is much more difficult that to the traditional sports.

When girls are little, the majority of kids who they are surrounded by are in dance, skating, gymnastics, soccer and now "cheer". The skiing population is extremely small in comparison to these other sports. Therefore, there are less coaches, clubs and team for skier girls to get involved with. You need to think, if I had a daughter and I don't know how to hit a rail, do I just drop her off in the park and hope for the best? Or how do I go about getting my little girl training? It's not that simple yet.

The ski industry has not really supported women's freeskiing either. Brands cut women's ski lines, cut marketing, cut budgets, and cut female athletes because they "don't help sell skis".

In the big scheme of things "Freeskiing" is still a new sport, it's going to take a while for organizations to evolve. Perhaps Sochi 2014 will shed some light on the sport for the mainstream audience. Bottom line is that we all need to promote the sport and get more girls into it.
Nov 27 2012 5:24PM
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ALaw
Posts: 2616 - Karma: 1,552
Who says you need a coach or an organized program to progress?
Nov 27 2012 5:29PM
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uberalles
Posts: 52 - Karma: 46
You definitely don't need it, but it does help some athletes.
Being part of a crew or team can give you more confidence and increase progression. That's why there are such things as "team training camps".


Nov 27 2012 5:34PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Supply and demand? The companies can create demand but demand makes a lot more sense when the consumer creates it.

Why is it the industries job to support women? Does the industry exist to support men? No, the industry exists to supports skiers. It's a fact that the industry is mostly men so does it seem weird that they get more attention? Why should the industry use a disproportionate amount of resources to support a less important faction?

Nov 27 2012 5:47PM
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Ski_The_E
Posts: 1036 - Karma: 944
Not to mention the never ending urge to one up your friends...
Nov 27 2012 5:47PM
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katrina
Posts: 2395 - Karma: 15,192
lol who cares, im stoked someone just did a dub 12 but that isnt going to sell some random becky skis. skiing is skiing, if us girls can figure out how to suck less as a whole this would be a non issue
Nov 27 2012 5:51PM
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Miomo
Posts: 4302 - Karma: 14,133
Seems pretty spot on. To add to it, it's almost like asking "what happened first?" If the first few people of a certain group add emphasis to a certain skill or asset, then their kids will grow up putting emphasis on it because their fathers or mothers did. Now skiing originated as a mode of transportation for the men to go hunting or whatever, while the women stayed home. This era is detached from more modern times, however it does support what blindside is saying.
Nov 27 2012 6:04PM
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uberalles
Posts: 52 - Karma: 46
It's not the industries "job" to support women, but if you want to sell product to women it's a benefit to engage them also. It's a benefit to help grow a sport that you are selling product for. The ski industry exists to sell product #1, however, one of the main issues in the ski industry is that the "new participant" category is not growing. If the ski industry (brands, resorts, retailers) could help increase this category it would help everyone.

Women are ready to buy, however, many ski marketers find it difficult to capture women, therefore, a lot of them don't even try to. However, you would be surprised that a lot of ski brands, especially outerwear brands sell more women's clothing than mens. Why is this? Women don't read as many ski magazines etc, they simply just shop more, and touch things, and try things on in the store. Retail draws them in, not the marketing from the ski brands.

So why aren't brands supporting the athletes and sport as much on the female side? Some brands just don't know how engage the female skiers, retail does.

There is not one solution for growing women's freeskiing. Support and promotion needs to come from all the key stakeholders. It took a long time to happen for snowboarding and it will take a long time for freeskiing.





Nov 27 2012 6:13PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Agreed on the first 2.
Nov 27 2012 6:18PM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
I see where your going, but this argument applies to sons too. its just as expensive, they are pushed to play other easier to access sports (football, basketball, lacrosse, hockey, track, baseball), most adults don't really support their sons learning to freeski either. Not to say parents don't support women and men freeskiers after they get into the sport, but i was never pushed as a child to go try to hit rails or jumps. it was go try soccer, go play football. And it seems the reason corporations don't really support women's freeskiing is due to how boring it is to watch. Not to be rude, but its sucks watching winter x when 8/10 girls bale on anything over a 7, and the winning run is whoever stomps a 9.

TO make my question more clear, Why aren't women interested in competitive or cinematographic freeskiing? the doors wide open! Any girl who loves freeskiing, which do exist, could learn 5's and 7's and make it to the x-games. thats not as easy as i make it sound, but think if that's all it took for males to make it to the highest level? What is driving the progression away from women's freesking?
Nov 27 2012 6:39PM
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katrina
Posts: 2395 - Karma: 15,192
well we are... theres just other stuff going on too. a lot of us are in school or have jobs or want to ave families or have knees that work past the age of 30.. its an expensive sport so it requires a lot of sacrifice that maybe women arent as willing to make as men?

idk i still think this is dumb, people dont care about womens skiing because its boring as fuck and there is no money in it
Nov 27 2012 6:50PM
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RockNRollNghtClb
Posts: 2013 - Karma: 2,509
shutup bitch you suck
Nov 27 2012 6:59PM
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katrina
Posts: 2395 - Karma: 15,192
dont be so hostile lol
Nov 27 2012 7:00PM
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katrina
Posts: 2395 - Karma: 15,192
now you i like
Nov 27 2012 7:22PM
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will_powder
Posts: 3194 - Karma: 5,445
Would it help if separate courses were built for women and men at Dew Tour and X Games? I seem to remember some stats that said women would feel better about trying some new stuff on smaller jumps...

Like the Nine Queens jump, everyone bitched about the size and then new tricks were landed...
Nov 27 2012 8:15PM
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jameskiy
Posts: 396 - Karma: 3
someone post that video of that girl skiier who was awesome
Nov 27 2012 9:54PM
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CasualAlex
Posts: 17 - Karma: 12
A little of topic, and while all make astute points.One aspect that has been mentioned is figure skating. A few years ago. Probably around the Torino olympics, there was an article in Popular Science (I believe. Can't find it off hand), describing why men can do 4 twists on figure skates, while women were still unable. The answer they found was believe it or not, wasn't ability, but boobs. Their boobs redirected the air flow too great for them to be able to perform it. Now this is a non-issue in skiing with baggy clothes, but there are physical boundaries that haven't been passed in some aspects of male v. female sports.
Nov 27 2012 10:04PM
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Rachy
Posts: 4355 - Karma: 2,761
Anyone who says women are equals in gymnastics is WRONG.

Men can throw triples, women cant. Layouts are more difficult than flips.

But lets look at something here... there are exponentially more females in gymnastics then men. It is significantly more difficult for women to become professionals. Also, men are able to stay in the sport longer than females. Here's a great article on it.



So let's quit using gymnastics as proof women can be as good as men, cause guess what Men's skills are harder!


Hardest Women's skills

Piked Arablian Double Front
Three and half Twist
Double Layout
Double Back with Double Twist
Double Layout with one Twist

Hardest Men's skills

Front Layout with Triple Twist
Triple Twisting Double Back
Triple Back (aka "the Liukin", named after Nastia's dad)
Double Layout In, Pike Out
Double Twisting Double Layout
Quad Twist
Layed Out Arabian Double
Piked Double Arabian with full Twist
Nov 28 2012 4:47AM
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blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
You're smarter than these straw-man arguments. Without a proper sociological conceptualization -which I outlined above- this 'debate' will just go in circles.
Nov 28 2012 10:42AM
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GIF
Posts: 468 - Karma: 1,279
Testosterone
Sep 26 2013 11:33PM
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MaryO
Posts: 2583 - Karma: 5,996
I agree with this. Boys don't let the potential consequences of injury or crashing stop them from trying a trick. And maybe since the males brain doesn't fully mature until they're like 21, they act, or "go ham" without thinking of the possible risks and outcomes. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

Sep 27 2013 12:20AM
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Byron_tha_gr8
Posts: 4573 - Karma: 14,299
maryo just said go ham
Sep 27 2013 12:24AM
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Maruchan
Posts: 206 - Karma: 1,582
Skiing should never be a competition of "how little can I do to win?" Skiing should be a personal competition of how good you ca make yourself. That may not mean hucking as fast as you can, that may mean just throwing the steaziest cork 9s in the game, but progress yourself. Don't just make your goal to be the best by doing the least you can.
Sep 27 2013 1:16AM
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skiierman
Posts: 28699 - Karma: -5,563
Guys, guys, settle down. Now for the more important matter...



WHERE'S MY SAMMICH?!
Sep 27 2013 9:32AM
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