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Help Me Not Die: A Noob's Guide to AT/Touring

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seanahue.
Posts: 2142 - Karma: 3,375
What's up NS, used the pathetic excuse for a searchbar and couldn't find a similar thread, sorry if repost... first let me preface with the following:

I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT AT/TOURING, AND ANYONE WHO POSTS IN THIS THREAD WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANYONE'S ACTIONS RELATED TO SAID ADVICE/COMMENTS/OPINIONS



Alright so let's get down to it. These are the fairly obvious things I already know:

1. I need a beacon/shovel/probe

2. I need to take an avalanche certification class to recognize snow stability and how to use beacon/shovel/probe

3. I need AT binders+skins



Feel free to answer/expand with any useful knowledge you think you might have to share, but these are my specific, mostly Salomon Guardian-related questions:

1. If I buy Guardians, are AT boots an absolute necessity? Can I still use SPKs if I'm only planning relatively short, lazy-man tours? I realize I probably sound like an idiot parkrat but there's no way around how happy my feet are in mah SPKs :)

2. Again, I probably sound like a parkrat so if you dont like it... fuck you. I heard that landing switch on Guardian's can make for a bad time, true or false? Do all AT binders have issues riding switch? I want to channel all that is Nimbus into my sidecountry shred, so switch performance is a must.

3. Where in the greater SLC/PC area holds a good on-snow avalanche safety class? When are they available?



Again, any and all advice/recommendatins are welcome, even if unrelated to my specific questions. Thanks NS!
Nov 20 2012 12:19AM
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FJibber
Posts: 1494 - Karma: 1,291
prepare the verdes

Click for larger image
Nov 20 2012 4:33AM
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250r
Posts: 2276 - Karma: 1,013
im just going to say one thing...touring in spks is gunna suck, haha youd probably even save more weight by switching boots than by switching to dynafits
Nov 20 2012 4:49AM
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SFBv420.0
Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,124

safe bc travel, the ability to perform assessments of specific slopes stability, and the knowledge and skill using your compain rescue gear, and what gear is right for you is something that takes years to refine.

Seeing as you are to stupid or lazy to search for commonly discussed questions reguarding AT/Touring guardians and avvy classes in the wasatch and seem real focused on your ability to shred the bc gnar brown eye first, 

I wish you the best of luck in not dieing

if I sound like a custy old turn earner

 fuck you I am

Nov 20 2012 9:05AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627

There's a cult for this now.  (not positive this will be the right link)

https://www.newschoolers.com/culthome/5414/Enjoys:-long-walks-in-the-mountains-

But yeah, that's a lot of info.  As for your specific three questions so far, here's my take. 


1. If I buy Guardians, are AT boots an absolute necessity? Can I still use SPKs if I'm only planning relatively short, lazy-man tours? I realize I probably sound like an idiot parkrat but there's no way around how happy my feet are in mah SPKs :)

--No, you don't NEED At boots, if your feet are good in your alpines and you're short on cash, they'll work in a pinch.  Once you get out though, you're going to want to upgrade.  Trust.  Just keep them buckled down enough to keep your heel in the pocket.  If it's sliding around in the boot, you'll be covered in blisters in an hour.   

2. Again, I probably sound like a parkrat so if you dont like it... fuck you. I heard that landing switch on Guardian's can make for a bad time, true or false? Do all AT binders have issues riding switch? I want to channel all that is Nimbus into my sidecountry shred, so switch performance is a must.

--NO FUCK YOU!  *ahem*  Now...  Back to business.  No, you should be fine landing switch on Guardians, Dukes, etc.  It will of course increase the wear and tear on the binding and may lead to premature breakage, but just go in knowing that they aren't really built to take that.  If you REALLY care about switch performance though, you'll just go MFDs and call it a day IMO.     

3. Where in the greater SLC/PC area holds a good on-snow avalanche safety class? When are they available?

--Look it up.  Literally google Salt Lake City avalanche course, Wasatchavi course, etc. until you find something you like and can make happen.  Especially out there though, this is SO important.  Also realize that no matter what you learn, you still don't know shit. 

I read a quote once that was to the effect of :

"You start off in the mountains with a handful of luck, hopefully you gain a handful of knowledge before the handfull of luck runs out."

And that is very true.  Stoked to hear you want to get out there in the right way, so just keep that up.  Be sure to join up with the AT cult too.  I'm sure discussion will grow, knowledge will be kicked, and stoke will be shared. 

Nov 20 2012 9:12AM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5983 - Karma: 3,596
I don't believe that mfds are any better than guardians or dukes for landing switch. Why would they be? Although I have heard that switch on dukes is bad, i've never actually seen any facts.

As for AT boots. I tour every other day of the year in Langes that have no tour mode. I have for 6 years. Don't stress about AT boots unless you are switching priority to the up or have money to blow and fit well into an AT boot. Yes, it makes it easier. Is it hard with out them? No.
Nov 20 2012 9:54AM
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STAUSS
Posts: 8232 - Karma: 3,311
are you in school in salt lake?  both westminster and the U provide avi courses.  if you're not going for huge hikes and are just trying to play mini golf in grizzly or hit jumps you could also look into trekkers. 
Nov 20 2012 9:58AM
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Vinci
Posts: 701 - Karma: 1,472
You might want to get used at getting yelled at for no reason. People usually touring just do that because you're not old enough, not experienced enough and you probably don't wear 80's outerwear anymore...

Seriously though, you need some buddies to trust. Classes are a good start but to be honest, estimating stability is nothing you'll learn in a couple of days. I'd advice you to get some books and start reading. There are certain methods to calculate risks based on a couple of simple factors (fall, amount of snowfall, ...). One is called 3x3 for example. If I would know the english book names I'd tell you, but I'm not even sure if there is a translated version right now? Anyhow, using one (or maybe even more) of those methods on a regular base and comparing those with your buddies, you can get used to judge faces pretty fast.
Nov 20 2012 10:07AM
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seanahue.
Posts: 2142 - Karma: 3,375
too many awesome responses to quote at once so I'll just start with thanks and +k to everyone in here, especially huck_norris and even you SFB; fuck you, but thank you, snarky ol' bastard)...

follow-up to my question about avi classes: I am not in college anymore (unfortunately) so university based classes aren't a possibility... though I realize that other options are plentiful, that's kind of the problem. I made this thread on mobile and don't have full internets at the casa yet, so it's hard to tell which classes are going to encompass the firsthand, on-snow experience that I'm going to need. I was hoping someone might be able to narrow the search and give me a recommendation based on good personal experience, i.e. you learned a shitload with person/company 'x' in avi class 'y'... If this question is too specific it's all good, I've already learned a bunch from this thread and will continue to do so!

Thanks again NS!
Nov 20 2012 10:54AM
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Treestman
Posts: 3049 - Karma: 300
go to TGR. NS is a bunch of jibbing kiddies.

Beware, you may be called a "jong" on the tgr forum, and get toyed around with, but there is valuable information on what features are setup at mt snow, what the lastest fashion trend is, are 167 skies the right size for me, and who is the steeziest.
Nov 20 2012 10:54AM
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seanahue.
Posts: 2142 - Karma: 3,375
i can't read on tgr for more than a minute without feeling like my eyeballs are being shot with lasers... you're right about it having some valuable info, but fuck that place, there's plenty of crusty assholes like sfb who have accounts with both anyway ;)
Nov 20 2012 11:02AM
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Skillz
Posts: 945 - Karma: 50
Everyone's answers for 2-3 are good, but let me provide a bit more depth to question #1:

Guardians do not have a sliding afd in the toe like barons/dukes/alpine bindings, and thus Salomon does not recommend using a touring boot with them. (AT soles + fixed afd = possible release issues). In fact, Guardians were made to be used with alpine boots.

This isn't to say that you couldn't use an alpine touring boot with the Guardian, they does fit but Salomon won't indemnify it.
Nov 20 2012 12:37PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627

I did not know this.  I guess they took that out to lower the stack height?  That's pretty stupid IMO.  Basically makes using 75% of AT boots a bad idea. 

Jesus that's stupid. 

Nov 20 2012 12:40PM
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Skillz
Posts: 945 - Karma: 50
They made Guardians for the inbounds skier that goes on smaller sidecountry tours and such...not the dynafit 7 day hiker. And you can still use a cochise or other "hybrid boot" I suppose...

It's all very confusing, and some standardization is in order for the entire industry, imo.
Nov 20 2012 12:48PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627

Yeah, burl it up, market it to everyone as THE premier touring/AT binding and don't include the ONE THING that will make it safer to use desirable equipment with it.  Classic Salomon.  What the fuck. 

Nov 20 2012 12:51PM
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Skillz
Posts: 945 - Karma: 50
Forgot to mention that the toe height remains adjustable, and I am sure lots of people use A/T boots with them...but Salomon won't be liable if something does go wrong.
Nov 20 2012 12:51PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627

That's probably why they did it, seeing as how they got their assholes fisted sideways in their last foray into AT equipment when their bubble gum tech inserts let go on the 1st gen Quest boot.   

That does make sense though.  I can't think of any other reason you wouldn't want to include a floating AFD.  The toe height helps a little, but it is far from ideal in using AT boots with vibram.

0/10, Sally.   

Nov 20 2012 12:56PM
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seanahue.
Posts: 2142 - Karma: 3,375
bump for more info... anyone out there had a 'phantom tele' experience with their guardians? i keep hearing there's a high probability it will happen, but have yet to see any facts... is it related to issues with the fixed afd mentioned above or something else?
Nov 27 2012 6:21PM
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razors-chaz
Posts: 2255 - Karma: 1,250
every time i've seen anything asked or said about the possibility of it becoming intermittantly tele ive had the same response, "the heel holding mechanism works in a way that the hold strength increases as the ski is flexed" how this works nobody has clearly eplained or if this even applies to worn out mechanisms becoming phantom tele
Nov 27 2012 6:35PM
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Sklar
Posts: 8864 - Karma: 31,612
because none of the responses have been at all helpful in this thread, and TGR knows all...

...NOT.
ns can be a fine source of info, there is just as much BS on the TGR forums



All of the stuff above looks like good info.
I'd recommend starting off minimally for gear, that way you can start to learn about the BC, and see if it's for you, and not have to drop a shitload of money on it.
just get avi gear, skins, and maybe even just trekkers for starters.
You don't need AT boots, they can be nice, but you'll be fine without them.


Once you have:
Beacon
Shovel
Probe
Skins
AT bindings (or mfd's or trekkers)
you will be able to start, an avalanche class is a good place to start, they are offed all over the place. Findings some good touring partners to show you the ropes and help you learn is an awesome idea.
Avalanche education never ends, so do think you'll take avi 1 and be an expert, that being said, it's a good step to start
Nov 27 2012 6:44PM
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razors-chaz
Posts: 2255 - Karma: 1,250
obviously its definitely not the same as going on a course but i felt this online course from the canadian avalanche association was some good introductory reading for avalanche basics and reading terrain http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/online-course
Nov 27 2012 7:03PM
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250r
Posts: 2276 - Karma: 1,013
this book is really good, its an enjoyable read that puts everything into understandable terms instead of reading like a text book as most avy books are



http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844
Nov 27 2012 7:12PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,011
to be fair, I'm pretty sure it's an Atomic binding, not Salomon. Or is it the other way around? One's blue and ones yellow, that much I do know.

The Guardian/Tracker is probably the dumbest binding in the market right now. It's heavier than the Duke and it's not really compatible with AT boots. Combine that with Salomon's "AT" Boot which isn't compatible with tech bindings and you got yourself a whole lot of head scratching going on from this guy.



On a slightly related topic, I've got 3 years+ on Dukes with no real issues with landing switch. Hell, I've skied on them in the park and they've been "ok", sure, I broke them once in the park, but it had nothing to do with landing switch. I've actually broken the Duke three times, all different ways from different situations.
Nov 27 2012 7:43PM
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razors-chaz
Posts: 2255 - Karma: 1,250
its supposedly a equal and joined colab, yellow-atomic blue- salomon. should be no price difference as there is no difference in the bindings just colours.
ive asked onenerdykid (the atomic boots guy) a bunch of stuff in the duke epf vs the guardian thread in gear talk and i'm waiting on a reply about the lack of sliding afd and the reason for lack of compatibility with AT boots. also waiting on a reply about how the heel locking mechanism gets stronger as the ski flexes as all i can see is a wall of text and a half hour long video on the salomon website and nothing easy to read/watch or technical, just marketing bumf, as per usual from salomon.
Nov 27 2012 8:06PM
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snakerton
Posts: 2434 - Karma: 1,977
For shovel, beacon and probe I use BCA. Its light, durable and not super expensive

Get your avalance level 1 and go with someone who knows what theyre doing

I use black diamond skins for my 4frnts and k2 skins for my hellbents. both work well

Either guardians/trackers or dukes will be fine

You can tour in pretty much any boot. An AT boot will be more comfortable but it doesnt make much difference. Just dont use a 140 flex racing boot haha


Nov 27 2012 8:32PM
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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
Here are all the classes available this winter.

Nov 27 2012 9:20PM
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liftedresearcher
Posts: 1140 - Karma: 1,775
touring for more than a couple hours in regular ski boots sucks. once you try AT boots for the first time, youll never wanna tour in normal boots ever again. thats just me though.






Nov 27 2012 10:02PM
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Treestman
Posts: 3049 - Karma: 300
do not get diamar/fritschis. many issues
Dec 2 2012 7:32PM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 3,909
I do the BC thing different.

Its called rally the mountain sled with buddy to aspect I want to ski. Then ski. Then get picked up at bottom, and repeat process.

If I don't do that. I bootpack.

Again, I do shit different.

I don't use a beacon. I should, but they are only as good as the people you are with. I ski where it is safe. It avy danger is high or even close to high, I ski mellow shit in safe spots.

I have no problem skiing pow on 30 degree safe aspects. I would rather do that then die or kill others.

Make friends. More the better. Doing shit alone sucks.


Dec 2 2012 7:41PM
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Big_Willy
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 6
Staying alive in avalanche terrain is a great book with loads of great information. This book really breaks down principles that are key to being safe (very dry though).

As many have said, touring boots are not a necessity. I would not get touring boots unless you plan on touring most of the time. I tour in Langes and they are fine.

Please, take it slow at first, there is a lot to learn. Start on flatter terrain, pay attention, make observations.

I've had both G3 and Black Diamond skins, IMO G3's suck.


Dec 2 2012 8:42PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,011
this is a good example of someone that will eventually die in an avalanche and give us a bad name in the media.

don't be a statistic, get a beacon. If not for you, do it for your mom.
Dec 3 2012 10:59AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
Yeah dying alone is gay, I like to sit 20 friend sat the bottom of a 30-degree aspect so when it slides because you have no idea what you're even looking at, you can have some company while locked in frozen, wet cement.  Be sure to bring a pack of cards, it's gonna be a long thaw down there before they find you via Recco. 
Dec 3 2012 11:07AM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 3,909
I ski alone most of the time so a beacon really does no good...

But I really should get one and I will get around to it at some point.
Dec 3 2012 5:12PM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 3,909
I have no idea what you are trying to say or get at. But you don't make sense.
Dec 3 2012 5:14PM
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mammspowskrHMD
Posts: 148 - Karma: 18
I really am speechless if you think this is somehow acceptable.
Dec 3 2012 5:36PM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 3,909
It's called being smart. Sure, you are going to say I am a dumbass for just going out alone anyway. But if you are smart about what you do, you stay alive. Am I going out high marking bowls and dropping cornices at high danger times. No.

If I am out there alone, I am usually touring around on my sled, or hiking low degree zones on safe days.

There are a lot more people out touring and sledding and skiing alone then people think. NS is not really up on this stuff, and I am sure most people who go out in the BC do it a few times a year. I ski 100+ days a year, half of those are in the BC.

All the gear in the world does not save anyone. Don't put yourself in the situation to use it. Be safe, be smart, you stay alive.
Dec 3 2012 5:45PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,011
I know what you're saying. I go into the backcountry by myself more than a handful of times a year. I used to be all "no, you can't", but after spending enough time out there and seeing all the old dudes doing it I just said "fuck it" one day and started. I mean, it's all very dependant on the situations (obviously nothing is black and white), but my previous statement still stands - get a damn avi beacon. There are a lot of situations where if shit does go wrong and you don't have a beacon, you, your friend, or some stranger below you just died. Again - what would your mom think if she found out.
Dec 3 2012 6:11PM
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heFF
Posts: 5786 - Karma: 4,456
avy class
Dec 3 2012 11:55PM
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Pudge
Posts: 3718 - Karma: 3,117
Would a 2 flex for Seth's be a somewhat viable and cost efficient substitute for AT boots?
Dec 17 2012 12:42PM
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Sklar
Posts: 8864 - Karma: 31,612
AT boots aren't just soft boots, a walk mod gives you a far greater range of motion, too.
So I'd say no, then you would just have a soft boot that would suck on the way down and the way up.
Alpine boots aren't THAT bad for tours, but if you're going to be doing a lot of touring and longer tours I'd say go for AT boots
Dec 17 2012 12:51PM
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Nakas
Posts: 248 - Karma: 252
Don't get mfds if you want to land switch. the switch in the back releases if you land switch with any speed. Cast bindings are looking good if they ever come out. http://www.facebook.com/CASTtouring?fref=ts
Dec 17 2012 12:54PM
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