Was Darwin Wrong?

in the bible it says when Jesus is using metaphors and/or parables. But can one of you smart science people tell me how the Law of COnservation of matter fits in? because it seems to me that it contradicts the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe, and no one has addressed it yet. Thanks.
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'how vain is it to sit down and write, when you have not stood up to live'
-Andrew P

I was in the petting zoo, or as I like to call it, the touch me zoo this afternoon. All the animals were retarded. Some lady was breast feeding her baby on a bench nearby, an obvious signal. I sat down uncomfortably close to her and yawned my arm around her shoulder. In her attempt to squirm away, she dropped her baby on the ground. I pretended I was concerned for a second, then I punted it over the fence. She still didn't seem interested in me. Whatever.

Ah... this thread goes to fast! Let me respond to this:

''apparently not ALL concious thought, as I know most of the world believes in a god of some sort, and the more i look around at the world and start to understand it, the more i see the working of God's hand, and the impossibility of a flue creation
-Joe ''

By consciousness I mean something very different than what everybody thinks of as consciousness. Consider the biological imperatives behind all our actions and you see that we are not free, willing creatures, but rather machines controlled by, that is reacting to, external stimuli. By consciousness I mean free and willful thought that transends our ''waking state'', that state of man in which he belives he is conscious but he is really animal. I remind you of course that these ideas are of course not my own, and that the above is a second hand generalization of an of a highly credible philosophic tradition.


In response to another post:

'If the concept of deities is a cerebral creation of man than is not the concept of evolution also a creation of man?'

But of course! The thing is that religion doesn't take the creation of god my man into account, whereas science does so very thouroughly. All physics, chemistry, all hard sciences can proceed without philosophy, but are in the relm of philosphy dealt with as metaphysics. Metaphysics allows us to fashion a worls-view, a physical world-view that allows to act with a sure footing. That is to say that the woirld-view afforded by 'science' is hard to refute because of it obvious utility aparent by it recent creations in the world around us. God didn't build skyscrapers, we did. And it is easily understood, this evolution of human scientific culture that has lead to skyscrapers; it would be ridiculous if someone said that God had built these buildings. This very process of acedemic credibilty also applies too epistemology, that branch of philosphy that deals with the nature of knowledge, our knowledge of knowledge so to speak. Now, as you can imagine, this is a murky area in a rather clear intellectual world. After all all, what can one know for certain about knowledge if one's faculty of knowledge is no longer reliable, is made suspect by the very inquiry? Well, obviously nothing concrete, as in physics, chemistry, or biology, but rather something very tentative, something very fluid, very dynamic, very elusive. And what happens when one begins to see the world with this epistemological view? Well, first of all, everything falls apart, all knowledge disolves and runs between one's fingers, lost. But as time goes one, a new world-view is contructed that is much more epistemologically sound, that is to say, tentative, fluid, dynamic, and elusive, but absolutly bullet-proof. Metaphysics is always refutable by epistemology, but epistemology cannot exist with a metaphysical world. Religion however, deals with none of this in an intellectually satisfying manner. When asked about anything, god becomes the answer, but explanation for God is never available and so the whole system quickly falls under the slightest weight of any need for that intellectual credibility that has brought science to it height. And so the world now takes on the appearence of Plato's cave, with the epistemologically unenlightened (religious and scientific domgatists alike) still convinced that the shadows dancing on the wall befor them is the world, despite the claims of those who have been outside the cave.


''In Plato's Cave we are restrained by what we know and that is based on what we are able to see. Beyond the cave, we know not what awaits, yet we use the cave to describe ourselves and our lives, without acknowledging what lies beyond our vision.''


-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

''in the bible it says when Jesus is using metaphors and/or parables. But can one of you smart science people tell me how the Law of COnservation of matter fits in? because it seems to me that it contradicts the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe, and no one has addressed it yet. Thanks.''

Huh? The Big Bang theory complies fully with the Law of the Conservation of matter.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

but where did all the matter come from in the first place? matter just doesnt appear out of nowhere.



-Joel

'I was in the waiting room of my doctor's office before a physical this morning. There's nothing wrong with me, but healthy people get physicals just-for-the-hey-of-it every couple of days. When they finally mispronounced my name, I got up and walked down a hall with a nurse. After a while, the doctor came in and inspected my holes. He said that I should lose weight and consider stop smoking. I blew smoke in his face and explained that he is a douche bag. We all had a good laugh and he agreed.' -Skydaddy

Way to copy the main topic in the most recent of the National Geographic Magazines.


'Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil..'

forget it, im lazy and didnt read your whole message... my bad


'Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil..'

Ah... this thread goes to fast! Let me respond to this:

''apparently not ALL concious thought, as I know most of the world believes in a god of some sort, and the more i look around at the world and start to understand it, the more i see the working of God's hand, and the impossibility of a flue creation
-Joe''

By consciousness I mean something very different than what everybody thinks of as consciousness. Consider the biological imperatives behind all our actions and you see that we are not free, willing creatures, but rather machines controlled by, that is reacting to, external stimuli. By consciousness I mean free and willful thought that transends our ''waking state'', that state of man in which he belives he is conscious but he is really animal. I remind you of course that these ideas are of course not my own, and that the above is a second hand generalization of an of a highly credible philosophic tradition.


In response to another post:

'If the concept of deities is a cerebral creation of man than is not the concept of evolution also a creation of man?'

But of course! The thing is that religion doesn't take the creation of god my man into account, whereas science does so very thouroughly. All physics, chemistry, all hard sciences can proceed without philosophy, but are in the relm of philosphy dealt with as metaphysics. Metaphysics allows us to fashion a worls-view, a physical world-view that allows to act with a sure footing. That is to say that the woirld-view afforded by 'science' is hard to refute because of it obvious utility aparent by it recent creations in the world around us. God didn't build skyscrapers, we did. And it is easily understood, this evolution of human scientific culture that has lead to skyscrapers; it would be ridiculous if someone said that God had built these buildings. This very process of acedemic credibilty also applies too epistemology, that branch of philosphy that deals with the nature of knowledge, our knowledge of knowledge so to speak. Now, as you can imagine, this is a murky area in a rather clear intellectual world. After all all, what can one know for certain about knowledge if one's faculty of knowledge is no longer reliable, is made suspect by the very inquiry? Well, obviously nothing concrete, as in physics, chemistry, or biology, but rather something very tentative, something very fluid, very dynamic, very elusive. And what happens when one begins to see the world with this epistemological view? Well, first of all, everything falls apart, all knowledge disolves and runs between one's fingers, lost. But as time goes one, a new world-view is contructed that is much more epistemologically sound, that is to say, tentative, fluid, dynamic, and elusive, but absolutly bullet-proof. Metaphysics is always refutable by epistemology, but epistemology cannot exist with a metaphysical world. Religion however, deals with none of this in an intellectually satisfying manner. When asked about anything, god becomes the answer, but explanation for God is never available and so the whole system quickly falls under the slightest weight of any need for that intellectual credibility that has brought science to it height. And so the world now takes on the appearence of Plato's cave, with the epistemologically unenlightened (religious and scientific domgatists alike) still convinced that the shadows dancing on the wall befor them is the world, despite the claims of those who have been outside the cave.


'' Picture men dwelling in a sort of subterranean cavern with a long entrance open to the light on its entire width. Conceive them as having their legs and necks fettered from childhood, so that they remain in the same spot, able to look forward only, and prevented by the fetters from turning their heads. Picture further the light from a fire burning higher up and at a distance behind them, and between the fire and the prisoners and above them a road along which a low wall has been built, as the exhibitors of puppet shows have partitions before the men themselves, above which they show the puppets.
''




-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

''but where did all the matter come from in the first place? matter just doesnt appear out of nowhere.''

To answer your question: it came from the last Last universe (the Universe is continually expanding and contracting)
To refute your question: Scientists don't how or why, or what the ''Universe'' really is, and they can't know. They can speculate, but it is impossible to proceed futher, the Universe is just too big and we are just too mortal to make the observations necessary to flesh out our theories. However, the question of the Universe has been answered much better than the question of God. And don't even get me started on epistemology again.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

tak, if you believe in past universes, i ask my question all over again, because that doesnt answer it at all. the matter from the past universe must also have been created at some point.
and if you believe in a past universe, that is absolute blind faith. just like faith in god. so therefore the big bang takes just as much faith as believing in god...check that, even more.



-Joel

'I was in the waiting room of my doctor's office before a physical this morning. There's nothing wrong with me, but healthy people get physicals just-for-the-hey-of-it every couple of days. When they finally mispronounced my name, I got up and walked down a hall with a nurse. After a while, the doctor came in and inspected my holes. He said that I should lose weight and consider stop smoking. I blew smoke in his face and explained that he is a douche bag. We all had a good laugh and he agreed.' -Skydaddy

science at the highest level explains that the original matter for the universe WAS CREATED. I have taken university level courses on geologic time, and the profs, and everyone worldwide say that the original matter was created. That gives 100% proof of God, even in the purest science realms.

my question to creatonists, why did god create the universe? And why does god allow people to starve and get raped and for horrible things like that to happen. You say you see 'god's work' all the time, but really, those ghood things are necessary to counter the evil things that happen.

I don't belive in blind universes, the current scientific model of the universe supports it.

And 'where did the universe come from?' is just as unanswerable and irrelivant a question as asking where God came from.

I can answer both questions with an epistemological answer, but the physics of both is simply too fantasic to be of any relevance. I can also support why they're irrelevant, and why a scientific answer is more credible than a religious answer.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

Skibum, read the bible if you want those answers.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

someone tell me what god is? I want a physical and material explanation.

I think my questions can be answered without having to read the bible. And from what I have read, i didn't find any answers

Ok, according to the religious world-view, God exists. That's it, that's their answer. Credible scientific process came after religion and is of no concern to it. So, that's it. If you believe in God, you don't need in scientific proof. If you believe in science, you don't need ''God's'' blessing. It's that simple.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

^agreed 2 entirely diffrent realms
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'No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride . . . and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well . . . maybe chalk it off to forced consciousness expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.' HST

not true. creationists are all about science...



-Joel

'I was in the waiting room of my doctor's office before a physical this morning. There's nothing wrong with me, but healthy people get physicals just-for-the-hey-of-it every couple of days. When they finally mispronounced my name, I got up and walked down a hall with a nurse. After a while, the doctor came in and inspected my holes. He said that I should lose weight and consider stop smoking. I blew smoke in his face and explained that he is a douche bag. We all had a good laugh and he agreed.' -Skydaddy

skibum, don't be such a lazy ass, and read the bible, obviously what you have read does not give you enough information. why does god let bad things happen? it goes back to one of the simplest stories in the bible with adam and the tempting snake, basic stuff. once evil was in the world, and occuring rampid, that is why jesus came and performed crazy miracles, and was killed, and because of that, sins can be forgiven. god is graceful. What is god, you want a material answer, god cannot be explained by a material answer, it actually involves some intellectual thought.

the universe is currently expanding as can be seen from phase shifts in the light of stars, however it is not contracting, i have no idea where you got that idea from. No one at a professional level at a university teaches contracting universe. SCIENCE PROVES GOD, despite what you think tak. Sciences explains, as i have said a lot, that the universe was created, for shits sake, does that not mean anything to you? Scientists with no religious affiliation say it was created by a being (God).

But of course, at one point we come to the question; who cares who's right? Well, obviously science (try building a skyscraper with rightous living and prayer alone) is right, but it really doesn't matter. Both world-views exist and can both can be adopted when needed. There is no need to know ''The Ulitimate Truth'', as there is no such thing and it's search is but the foley of the uneducated or unenlightened. Take what you need from each and live. It's that simple.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

''not true. creationists are all about science...''

Right, that science that affirms their beliefs.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

tak, that is your response, you ask questions, get answers you don't like, then say, we'll just forget about it.

this is a purpose to life for some people unfortunately for many they consider themselves a fluke of nature, a fluke like 2 heads on a cat is fluke. that sucks to have no reason of existance.

''SCIENCE PROVES GOD, despite what you think tak. Sciences explains, as i have said a lot, that the universe was created, for shits sake, does that not mean anything to you? Scientists with no religious affiliation say it was created by a being (God).''

Oh yeah, what scientists? Can you get some exerpts about the matter or is here-say good enough?

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

I don't remember asking any question, I do have purpose in life, and I do live moral life. I just happen to be agnostic, and that only strengthens my moralitly.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

I don't remember asking any questions, I do have purpose in life, and I do live a moral life. I just happen to be an agnostic, and that only strengthens my moralitly.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

You want names of scientists in geological time who teach that the very start of the universe 'was created' ok: stuart sutherland, paul smith, Note: As i am aware, they are not christians, thus, they don't believe in god, but what they do say 'the original nucleus that resulted in the production of our universe, was created.'


look up in peer -reviewed journals 'big bang, creation, orginal nucleus of big bang' but if you do not know how to access professional peer-reviewed journals, don't bother. Anyone can write a non-peer-reviewed article and get it printed, but in the professional world, the peer-reviewed articles are the only ones taken seriously.

''...was created.''

Do they specify by what or who?

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

come on now tak. by a creator...hence creation...



-Joel

'I was in the waiting room of my doctor's office before a physical this morning. There's nothing wrong with me, but healthy people get physicals just-for-the-hey-of-it every couple of days. When they finally mispronounced my name, I got up and walked down a hall with a nurse. After a while, the doctor came in and inspected my holes. He said that I should lose weight and consider stop smoking. I blew smoke in his face and explained that he is a douche bag. We all had a good laugh and he agreed.' -Skydaddy

i give you scientist names and what they teach, and explain that because they are not christians they will not teach it was created by god, although, they may personally believe it. i personally believe god created it, and if you don't believe god did then you would rather have your faith of existance in pure nothingnes.

So a scientist says something was created and a religious person says that it was therefore created by God. That doesn't mean it was created by God, but it doesn't mean it wasn't, so it's unconclusive. It doesn't matter what the scientists personally belived created it, it they do credit God with its creation in their work, then God has nothing to do with their theories and God cannot therefore be said to have created the Universe based on the afor-mentioned scientists' work alone.

And frankly, does it matter who created the universe if we're all going to agree on scientifically agreed theories of astro-physics? If both side agree on the Big Bang, then where's fighting over a claim of something that is unknown and irrelevant.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

I give you an illustration of epistemological ignorance facing a world that does not accept ''because'' as a credible answer in a long tradition of acedemic process.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

I give you an illustration of epistemological ignorance facing a world that does not accept ''because'' as a credible answer in a long tradition of acedemic process.




-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

have faith in god or have faith in nothing, hmmm tough question.

tak, a side question: do you believe in jesus?

Or have no faith at all. Who says you need ''Faith'' to live a righteous, enlightened life? I'd rather live an existenially authentic life.

And yes, I do belive that Jesus did exist, but I don't believe that he is the son of God.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

who was jesus?? and i would was wondering a couple questions about his life:

-how did he rise from the dead, and is body leave the tomb, but not the cloths, after he was laid to rest?
-how did he feed thousands of people with one fish and loaf of bread
-how did he make blind or mute people see perfectly and speak, respectively?

was he just some sort of miracle man with powers unheard of in the human race?

-how was jesus conceived without sex?

Just because it's written in the bible doesn't mean its true, eh?

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

^Jesus was God's son, which means he was equal to God in all respects. and a part of God, (a brain bender, i know) (not some randomly powerful person) and the answer to your questions is that an all powerful God can do anything, so a small thing as feeding people, or healing them is no problem for him.

his virgin birth was given as a sign that this was infact the Messiah promised to Eve.

PM for any questions
-Joe
______________________________________
'Really, I gotta say that I'm glad you exist, 'cause if there wasn't there'd be noone to make fun of and diss.'

Solider in the NS ARMY
Rollers of NS unite!!!
603 for life
I'm conservative, just so you all know.

Member Number: 5172

Golden Wheel Chair Award 2004-09-21

aggro_sk8, i know who jesus is in my terms and yours,

TAk, because you believe in jesus I want to know who he was in your understanding, and what his life was about

aside: have you ever read biography?

He was a righteous leader who inspired others to live a righteous life.

I don't believe a well contructed morality needs a God.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

what do you believed happened to him after he died? was his body stolen out of the tomb?

have you ever read a biography? did you believe it?

I believe somebody wrote a story and alot of people have taken that story to be true. I find much more evidence of the fictionality of the story of his resurrection (that is, an epistemological tradition supported by philosophic history), then evidence supporting the story of his resurrection (that is, a fictional story taken as true for the purposes of moral enlightenment).

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

actually, because its written in the bible does mean its true to christians. If whats written in the bible isnt true then the whole part about how everything was created might could possible not be true either... and if thats the case why are we arguing over lies?
-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
--->CCR*
'Humanity needs to stop having relations with it's mother' -a freind on Oedipus Rex.

I really don't know.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

the thing with the bible, more than any other book, it is written by many, many authors, and every author (writing at a different time and situation), all invlove the same theme and ideas throughout the entire bible. there is so much in common, from such a diverse group of sources. When people prophecy in written record about certain things with ridiculously specific details that will happen in a certain time in the future, then that actual thing happens just as prophecied, that is no fluke. such things occur often in the bible, with each involving a common god. One person did not write the bible. (catholics are different b/c 'the church' writes its own interpretation)

Right, but the main drive in theology is living a righteous life, not learning about the state of the external world. I have no qualms with religion when it come to morality. But when it comes to metaphysics, I don't believe religion has ever had any place there.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state

absolute truth in the bible reeeeally needs to be taken lightly.
__________________
You know the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

once back when i was a fetus i was aborted. it didn't hurt at all, but i was also high on life at the time. - thisangelicrage
its not rape....its surprise sex. you wake up and SURPRISE you had sex with me haha - huckster989
liberals think killing babies can be both fun and profitable, while conservatives think killing foreigners can be both fun and profitable - ice-is-scary

technically science wouldnt either, considering that science is involved with that which can be proved, metaphysics by deffinition is merely the educated speculation of that which can never be proved by science
-Joe
______________________________________
'Really, I gotta say that I'm glad you exist, 'cause if there wasn't there'd be noone to make fun of and diss.'

Solider in the NS ARMY
Rollers of NS unite!!!
603 for life
I'm conservative, just so you all know.

Member Number: 5172

Golden Wheel Chair Award 2004-09-21

exactly, metaphysics being tht which science is yet to discover... im butting in here thoguh arent i
__________________
You know the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

once back when i was a fetus i was aborted. it didn't hurt at all, but i was also high on life at the time. - thisangelicrage
its not rape....its surprise sex. you wake up and SURPRISE you had sex with me haha - huckster989
liberals think killing babies can be both fun and profitable, while conservatives think killing foreigners can be both fun and profitable - ice-is-scary

Why do people keep asking for proof? You know neither side can proove anything. If they could there would be no point to debating this. 1 side would be obviously correct. With current knowledge, it really just boils down to what/who you want to believe in.



-----------------
Go to www.tbirdfilms.com to download
'Dead on Arrival' ;[FREE]

No, it's all good Crystal.

Aggro: Right, but the meatphysical sciences are given credibility by their harmonious relationship with the epistemological sciences. According to epistemology, nothing can be proven, remember? Only taken as usefull and acted upon as true, despite any uncertainty.

-TAK, PPPhd

''Fuck gorilla; it's all about the penguin steeze.''
-Sdot, in reference to Tanner Hall's rather questionable atire and mental state