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Are contests going to be all about triples?

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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
Last year, you couldn't do much in a contest unless you had a dub under your belt and were confident doing a few in a row.

Now there's tonnes of people doing the triple... will that be a staple contest trick?

Will we then see people going to quad? quint?

How far does this go?

Oct 31 2012 11:03AM
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thedawg
Posts: 730 - Karma: 452
its all gonna come down to what it takes to win. as soon as someone realizes they have no chance of beating henrik/tom without throwing a triple people are gonna start hucking them during slopestyle runs
Oct 31 2012 11:15AM
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kvan
Posts: 3085 - Karma: 1,225
until someone breaks their neck and people finally figure out that aerials are gay
Oct 31 2012 11:20AM
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Stainr
Posts: 1186 - Karma: -1,150
LOL, its all about progression.
Oct 31 2012 11:29AM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5675 - Karma: 4,268
Probably. A few years ago only a few people could do dubs, and now like 15 year old kids can do them. Triples are gonna be a common thing soon.
Oct 31 2012 11:31AM
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tbayskier
Posts: 1138 - Karma: 1,642
I dunno man, I can't really see how pro's find it fun to huck triples on icy jumps at night in January...

Someone is going to get really hurt or die, then maybe people might be like "you know, this is pretty dumb." Probably not though.
Oct 31 2012 11:32AM
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2_fadez
Posts: 7780 - Karma: 4,183
I hope it doesn't turn into gymnastics where its just a bunch of 16 year olds doing as many flips as fast as they can.

What if in 10 years the Chinese start to take over the ski game?
As a result, we must encourage style.
Oct 31 2012 11:39AM
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Good_Deed
Posts: 1260 - Karma: 1,321

It is going to be a retro year switch 1080 for the win.

Oct 31 2012 11:46AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
Yeah, but you can progress style immensely. We haven't progressed style much while we've been focusing so much on moar flips.
Oct 31 2012 11:46AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
I mean, this already happened. That is why classic aerials had so many rules... people died and got paralyzed.
Oct 31 2012 11:46AM
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wiiski
Posts: 23 - Karma: 197
hope not, the judges need to see the variety of grabs, flips, creativity, the skier must be unique in its run of slopestyle
Oct 31 2012 11:56AM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
the same shit every year. oh is it gonna be back to back both way dubs in every contest run? does a bear shit in the woods? of course. people were doing back to back both way switch 10's. The guy that gets back to back both way triples first will win everything.

either that or henrik will figure out nosebutter triples.
Oct 31 2012 11:57AM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,850
I think what will eventually happen is athletes will start to get triples with as much or more style than dubs. Once that happens, triples will completely take over the comp scene.


Then the threads complaining about quads will come.
Oct 31 2012 12:01PM
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DERS.
Posts: 6299 - Karma: 1,293
until anybody figures out how to top henriks nose butter dubs and bio's i dont see how one hucked tripple would even matter.

no progression of style my ass. its just being done by 2-4 ppl and the rest will follow.
Oct 31 2012 12:03PM
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tbayskier
Posts: 1138 - Karma: 1,642
true. Bottom line for the average skier is...who cares. We can have fun and do straight back flips all day.  That's why free skiing is the bomb, there aren't any rules.
Oct 31 2012 12:03PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
Yeah... but when do the threads complaining that all the pros died come?

Oct 31 2012 12:04PM
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tbayskier
Posts: 1138 - Karma: 1,642
already happening. Skiers have a long history of getting hurt and dying, it's a sad part of the sport.  If a major bro pro dies trying a quad it will be a sad day though. 
Oct 31 2012 12:09PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
There has to be a limit to the flips. That is the point... at some point it will reach the limits of the human body.

I predict that this limit is triples. It was the same way for aerials and there is no reason that it would be different this time around.

Oct 31 2012 12:12PM
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tbayskier
Posts: 1138 - Karma: 1,642
I think if someone built a little bit bigger/longer Sammy Carlson Invitational jump, someone could possibly huck like a quadruple flipping triple twisting thing. 

To get into quad quad's it looks like you would have to have a jump like in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=druWqXZnoeU

No patience for embedding, sorry.
Oct 31 2012 12:17PM
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-ShredTheGnar-
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 111
but to starting putting limits on the sport surely takes away the whole aspect of "freeskiing"?
Oct 31 2012 1:05PM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
I dont think competition organizers are going to be building jumps big enough for people to throw quads. at least i hope not.
Oct 31 2012 1:12PM
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d-rok
Posts: 594 - Karma: 113
what's your point? of course if jumps are big enough people are going to start throwing triples in da slopestyle compétition. Unless 130ft quarter pipe jumps become standard in slope comps i doubt we will start seeing quads, but nothing's impossible. And about people getting injured, if you decide to try a trick, it's a risk you're willing to take. Should there be RULES so people can't do certain tricks?

over the last few years what comp skiing lacked was creativity, everyone doing the same trick, dub cork 12 mute, switch dub ten mute/ japan, cork 9 blunt etc etc
although these tricks are still being done, it seems like people are starting to diversify there tricks more which is good
although style is important, it's not cause your doing a double you cant have style, if you look at people who focus on style: ie: b-dog: he's been doing the same tricks on jumps for the past 2-3 years, with a different grab or 2, do we want everybody to start doing the same tricks all the time and trying to make them stylier? imo that's what film segments are for
the only thing i want for the future of freeskiing is people having their own style and doing different tricks, we need more people like vince and charles gagnier, we should definetly not limit the tricks being done whether we are talking about triple flips or one foot grinds.
any progression is good progression
all this being said i think triples are gay and my favourite trick is a zero spin, and comps also suck
Oct 31 2012 1:21PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
@shredthegnar and d-rok -

See... I'm not thinking we should put rules against flipping more. Not at all. I'm saying we need to change our attitudes towards contests before someone else puts rules on us.

It already has happened once. As soon as that triples barrier was crossed in classic aerials, the sport collapsed. People were getting too hurt, mountains didn't want training and contests couldn't get insurance. The sport went into hard regulation because it was forced on them.

The same thing could happen again. However, if we don't want it to go in that direction, we need to really explore style. Just because someone does a dub 12 and grabs doesn't mean a 540 with a super cool axis, insane style and more air than anyone else couldn't beat it.

The mentality that more rotations means the trick is better is the problem.

If you have ever played the game Amped 2, its amazing how well they got the scoring system. You get the most points for rotating smoothly and slowly while consistently holding the grab. Bonus points for a smooth shifty.

That is what we need - a judging and competition structure that properly rewards style, so that you can go to a contest and see tricks in a range from that bad-ass zero all the way up to the trip cork 1900 or whatever its going to be.

If you could win a contest with style - because we as a community philosophically embrace the difficulty behind true style - then you could avoid having rules put down.

I agree with you... this whole doubles/triples/quads/quints/sexts is fucking lame.
Oct 31 2012 1:30PM
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iSmokeweed
Posts: 4793 - Karma: 1,370
at what point did triples become "gay" i rmemeber when sammy threw his and then bobby in msp everyone was all up on that. then suddenly tey were gay
Oct 31 2012 1:34PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,459
The only competitions with a high enough level of competition to warrant triple runs are the xgames, eurox, and dew tour. All four of those courses are built for four different events: women+mens ski and women+mens snowboard. I don't think we'll see the triples until girls pick up the slack so the course will be safe to adjust for triples or separate courses are built.
Oct 31 2012 1:43PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
$10 says triples are everywhere this year.
Oct 31 2012 1:50PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,459
He is my problem with style:


Style is an attempt to handicap tricks to try to say that said trick is better than a harder one. Everyone in every given pro slopestyle has a switch 10. Only one or two guys have a trip 14. Who should be rewarded more, a person who has perfected a trick which everyone has been able to do for last the five years or the trick that only one person can do? I'm not denying that style doesn't exist, but it is art and should take a backseat to technicality.
Oct 31 2012 1:51PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
No it is not an attempt to handicap tricks - it depends on your definition of style.

In my mind, the hardest trick does not always win. Simply awarding who does the harder trick ends up in only one place:

Aerials.

Everyone does the hardest trick possible within physical human limitations, and tries to keep the best 'form' possible. This way, your Degree of Difficulty is what counts the most towards your score.

Style has to be viewed differently. The elegance of motion that you're capable of when rotating slowly is something you can't attain while doing triple flipping quad twisting flips. It also is much harder to maintain that absolute perfection, as holding it through a slow perfect rotation is not easy.

Finally, you can judge anything you want. If you adjusted it that style was more important than DD - you could have people who explore the 0, 180, 540, 720 single flipping axis with immense style and perfection... and who would score well.

I mean seriously, try Amped 2 sometime - they had it perfect with their scoring system.

Look here in this video. The tricks that rotate incredibly smoothly get a huge 'style' bonus down at the bottom. You can hear the sound as the style-o-meter builds, and the tricks that have the most style (not the most rotations) win. You can't get the style with massive rotations either, becuase your'e always having to huck too hard.



Video game got it, hell snowboarding even gets it most of the time... why as skiers can we not grasp the idea of the guy winning without doing the hardest trick?

Oct 31 2012 2:04PM
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kvan
Posts: 3085 - Karma: 1,225
I get where you're going with this but ultimately in the comp scene, its more about technicality rather than style which is a bit more opinionated.
Oct 31 2012 2:17PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
Then how can they score style high in a videogame?

I don't think the XBOX has an opinion on what makes a dope cork 7.

There are mechanics to style, you just have to set the rules to match what you want to see. Athletes do contest tricks for money - not for the progression of the sport.

Oct 31 2012 2:23PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,459
It's still a same but different scenario and I don't see us accomplishing anything going back and forth about it.


And to combat your snowboard getting style right... Torstein's "triple cork" which got him a perfect score at the xgames. If there's anything wrong in judging, it's giving perfect scores. Silly marketers trying to boost ratings will fucking over sports.
Oct 31 2012 2:40PM
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kvan
Posts: 3085 - Karma: 1,225
You're comparing a video game to reality... not quite the same thing.


Oct 31 2012 2:40PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
There is a great deal we can gain - we can both learn and push this issue further.

You're right about snowboarding... since the skiers have gone to triples their contests went to shit. I am absolutely forgetting about that fact. :)

Oct 31 2012 2:44PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
Yeah, the video game is able to use math to score style. Of course its not the same thing but look at that video, and look at the score meter.

The video game scores you based on how smooth your finger movements are. You can't say there isn't a correlation for what we're talking about.

The amazing part is a game can only use hard-core physics calculations to score. NOTHING in there is subjective, yet they have a scoring system where style always wins over hucking.

That is just something to ponder when people say the 'hardest trick should always win'.

Oct 31 2012 2:46PM
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Tremblantskier
Posts: 945 - Karma: 5,423
Triples are going to happen in contest runs but the courses are going to have to come along way. I don't think the current X Games course for example is long enough to accommodate the jumps required
Oct 31 2012 2:53PM
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TACO-DOG.exe
Posts: 11988 - Karma: 12,261
there was a contest somewhere where people weren't allowed to do anything over a 720. it turned out really dope.
Oct 31 2012 2:54PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
When I was park staff we ran big air contests like that. You were also scored on variety of tricks within a 1-hour jam.

It was unbelievable to watch.
Oct 31 2012 3:53PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,633
OK, then where does it end? How many flips are people going to be able to put into their tricks before there is a ceiling? Is there a ceiling?

Oct 31 2012 3:54PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
I think you're right on all counts--triples will probably be the ceiling, doing extra flips isn't necessarily harder than odd axis stuff, and there should be a way to score style beyond personal preference.

You've got the industry insider perspective--talk to the people who made Amped 2 and post up on what you find regarding their algorithms.

There are some other messy questions in here though.

Big name events like the X Games are content for broadcasting networks. They exist to make money, not to provide a venue to explore what's possible in the style realm. People watch them because they want to see people risking life and limb and triumphing. Judging standards reward the "hardest" trick not only because it's the current feeling in the ski world, but because that's what people who aren't skiers grasp. To the uninitiated watcher, style may not be something they can even understand, and there's no better proof of that than what happens when they do text voting (dub tens vs. superman double frontflips).

Furthermore, how do we go about changing the attitude within our sport? Do we hit a wall first, head for regulation, and then move in a different direction? The Olympic questions are only going to make this worse, because more energy, time, and attention is being devoted to FIS regulated events that qualify for the big show. FIS is doing a good job of listening to people like the AFP, but it's obvious that they're still getting the basics of judging skiing--trying to shift that to a style based system seems fraught with difficulty.

My personal belief is that the change we want to see will come(if it does) from within the sport--in the shape of non-traditional comp structures, things like the Orage Masters or the Back 9(remember that?). Whether we succeed or fail will be determined by the ability of skiing to muster all the money that's going to be thrown at it to develop these non-traditional comps rather than the big shows that see us as content, not as an end unto ourselves.

Not that I care that much, because skiing is about having fun, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody is the judge of who's having the most fun.
Oct 31 2012 4:19PM
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theTRIBE101
Posts: 1175 - Karma: 856
This. I'm sure competing and getting paid to ski like that is absolutely awesome, but i feel the traveling circus life of you and some buds just chilling and goofing around would be so much fun. I definitely prefer skiing and doing my own thing then worrying about hucking and impressing.
Oct 31 2012 4:24PM
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PULSEofdaNATION
Posts: 426 - Karma: 51
I think that the only way to keep away from triples is to change the formula of the major comps.
Oct 31 2012 4:27PM
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Stumpa
Posts: 250 - Karma: 380
"As soon as that triples barrier was crossed in classic aerials, the sport collapsed. People were getting too hurt, mountains didn't want training and contests couldn't get insurance. The sport went into hard regulation because it was forced on them." D. Bishop

There is no doubt in my mind about the fate of competition FreeSkiing because I've seen it before.  Bishop fairly accurate with the above statement. The Inverted aspect of the sport actually collapsed in America in the days of singles and doubles. People were hucking onto shitty landings and forced freestyle to make Aerial sites to specs.  There used to be jumps at mountains in the 70s with small crappy landigs (sound familiar?), then people were pushing it too hard and people got paralyzed.  The new jump and landing specs became the norm,

Aerial Jump Specs...
(In runs are 20 to 25 degree, 60 to 70 metre long a transition area leading to a flat platform or "table" Landings are a steep 37 ± 1 degree hill of chopped snow.)

I was a hot dogging old school upright aerialist.  I wasn't even allowed to flip in the US until we got these hills and proper insurance.  The insurance game changed and Terrain Parks made an appearance.  In fact we couldn't do upright Aerials on a sanctioned jump site with out adherence to Upright Specs which were similar without the chop.  Anyway, by the time I landed a double, guys were rocking Triple Twisting Triples.  So most of the freestyle SKIERS said goodbye to Aerials and the gymnasts took over.

But, this whole thing boils down to JUDGING.  The guy who hucks difficulty with reasonable style usually wins.  So, get ready cuz the Triples are here already.  Personally, I'll say no one gives a fuck about aerials any more because no one can relate to a Quad or Quint Twisting Triple.  So, now this cool hybrid of Hot Dogging called freeriding is going down the same road.  What ever.

Geoff Stump...  1981 US National Aerial Champion... ha ha ha... funny but true.
Oct 31 2012 4:28PM
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PULSEofdaNATION
Posts: 426 - Karma: 51
^have a style run that counts for half the score and a tech run that counts for half. Just like how they did it at London freeze. Would really up the ante in the competition scene and force pros to really broaden their horizons or else they won't have a chance to win. Maybe give BDog and some others a better chance at winning(Or Atleast Making the finals
Oct 31 2012 4:30PM
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Stumpa
Posts: 250 - Karma: 380
That is a great idea that has failed miserably for as long as I've been involved with judged contests.  The problem is that the Judges seem to always factor in difficulty even when they are not supposed to.  But, it may be the best formula and best shot at getting STYLE back into the equation.
Oct 31 2012 4:41PM
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caddyshack
Posts: 706 - Karma: 192
until physics cathes up with us
Oct 31 2012 4:49PM
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Juicy-J
Posts: 1901 - Karma: 1,765
honestly, somebody who does not know the sport is going to enjoy a triple more than they would enjoy a cork 3 or some other stylish trick. for instance, in the olympics, im afraid this will be the case.
Oct 31 2012 5:07PM
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Billiards.
Posts: 6853 - Karma: 816
No one has mentioned the fact that people are only going to triple if jumps are big enough for triples. X gams couldn't figure out how to make their big air jump big enough for triples, so how are they going to put up more than one tripleable jump in a slope course. All 4 dub 12's in a row will win this year.
Oct 31 2012 5:11PM
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midwestpowhunter
Posts: 2198 - Karma: 189
i believe that the reason that the mentality of more is better in competition has been the common theme is because up until this point there was room for progression in the number of flips and spins you could do. after tripps i think the only way the sport can safely progress is one of two ways...make the runs bigger and with more hits to allow for a way for riders to get totally creative. No two runs would be the same. or start allotting points for style, which is such a subjective method (spins and flips are not), I think they should award pts for style but it will come with a LOT of issues in standardizing the scoring process
Oct 31 2012 5:53PM
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freeski1620
Posts: 5670 - Karma: 1,718
you know most of the time when people go trip these days its on a jump built special for that.

That being said I don't think any of the contests we see will build a jump in a course thats big enough to trip. I can guarantee you you will not see one that big at Dew tour.

Last year at X games they said that jump for big air was big enough to trip. It wasn't.

Bottom line to me is that I don't trips will become a stock trick like a dub 12 has for the comp jock crew. its just not feasible. if it were chuck buck would be doing it in every comp already. Bob is probably the best at trips at this point and I don't think you're gonna see him throwing it in a comp run anytime soon.
Oct 31 2012 6:16PM
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[J_Gasper]
Posts: 2983 - Karma: 1,594
I haven't read the whole thread, but if someone is gonna throw a quad, its gonna be bobby on a redbull sponsered 130+ foot jump.
Oct 31 2012 6:26PM
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ILLinoisance
Posts: 3527 - Karma: 5,398
what comes after triples you ask? Well, let's see. There are singles, doubles, triples, then home runs. What is a home run? i don't know, and really no one knows, for that matter. All I know is Tommy Wetnaps will throw it and it will be glorious.
Oct 31 2012 6:29PM
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