I just got back from Iraq

yeah altaman! i know, we are sooooo few in frnace to think like me. my brothers spend their we to re built old 1942 ford jeeps that mad ethe landing in normandy, i was in normandy in this jeeps for the 60th anniversary and talked to guy who jumped on normandy on the morning of 6 june 1944. full respect. i know what we owe to USA. other french people think we liberated us ourselves. they forgot you. i do not.

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

thanks for your service to the country, i used to be pretty strong gung ho bush, but i dunno now, i really like john wesley clark, and he will most likely be the sec of defense under kerry, but i still like bush better than kerry


KNUCK IF YOU BUCK BOY


CRIME MOB HOE

we appreciate your services but fuck bush





Park Life

whoever compared this war to vietnam is full of shit. there is no draft, all these soldiers have volentarly signed up for the army. And seems to me this soldier isn't as pissed about this war as you are, and he had to go fight in it. I really wish i could vote in what seems the most importnat election ever. my vote would go to bush, so if anyone is undecided please cast my vote thanx.
__________________

some people like their cucumber pickled

''Holy Shit Punk Rider! you are definately an exception to the rule''
God, let's hope so.

Anyways, now we're into particulars. From what I've read, training for Iraqis is progressing considerably more slowly than initially estimated (a lot of the estimates with regard to this war have been, to put it politely, 'optimistic'); despite Bush's insisting that 100,000 are trained, the number is closer to 50,000... and there is some concern among iraqi officials, including Allawi, that the training may be a tad rushed and insufficient. Poor program planning has also been an issue there... I had the opportunity to talk to someone who had attended one of the training sessions, and during a segment devoted to 'domestic disputes and assault', the entire class of Iraqis couldn't stop laughing uproariously. Some of the policies that have been put in place, and Iraqis are being trained to uphold, are fairly impractical given the cultural context (not saying the Iraqis are right, just that it'd be ridiculous to expect their culture to adapt so quickly). There isn't a quick fix there. But as I say, we're arguing specific issues now... this never goes well.

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...

JD: NO ONE LIKES YOU HERE! GET OUT!

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

good lucktrying to convince anyone of that JD...but i've read some of the same things...oh how i wish john mkcain was running for president


-THE LAB-

Let me leave it at this. it's interesting to come home and see how people view whats going on over there. unless you've been there there is no way you can fully understand whats going on. hell, sometimes its hard for me. i beleive that freeing Iraq is an important and neccissary step in the wra on terror. it's great to be back in Utah with the greatest fucking snow on earth!

George Dubya is the man. Go Bush!!

Im responding to Alta only because if i argued with everyone else it would take hours or writing. So this is just in response to Alta's origional message.

First, despite what others will undoubtedly say, I do 'support the troops'. I support them in the way that i think it is important and nessecery for America to have an all volunteer army instead of a drafted one, and that every soldier in our army right now deserves respect from everyone in this country because that soldier is on the front line when our country goes to war and has volunteered to basically sacrifice his life if his/her country requires it. For that reason, i respect and admire every person in the army, whether they realize the y are doing this or not.

However, what I don't support is our decision to risk our soldiers lives. I do think that the war in Iraq was badly planned and truly not part of our war on Terror. Everyone can give thier 'evidence' that Saddam was bad, etc, (which he was, i dont argue that: It was our decision to confront it alone and unilaterally against the UN that I have a problem with). Bush was a slacker when he was on duty, and I dont think he truly understands what lives he endangers when he rushes our soldiers into a (personally motivated) war.

So there it is. I support the troops but not the war. And for everyone that wants to call proponants for peace traitors and terrorists, go to hell, because you're insulting the people that keep your troops from needlessly dying.
=================================
Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
*whispers* 'I love your movies!'
'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

While I admire what you have done very much and the sacrifices you have made.

I do not agree with the descisions your Commander in Cheif has been making, on military matters, and on issues within his own country.



But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!
I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

Breathe and Stop

Ninja Steeze 05

i think you are all misunderstanding me. i am not 'pro' war. i hate war. i do it because i beleive i have a duty to fight for what so many people take for granted. again, bush is not perfect, but he does know exactly what danger he put us soldiers in. and we are all willing to do it.

George Dubya is the man. Go Bush!!

hey, altaman, i just wanted to say thanks for seving, and i support the troops, but i am not informed enough to know if this is the right thing, and im sure half of the people in this thread are the same way. but again, i appreciate what you and everyone like you has done for us.

'If she floats than she is not
A witch like we had thought'
'Like most babies smell like butter
his smell smelled like no other'
'She'll come back as fire, to burn all the liars,
And leave a blanket of ash on the ground.' - Kurt Cobain

i think kerry and bush are fucking fags and suck at trying to be presidents



-Bon Bons
**Stept Productions**
Enom Headwear.

'got caught with underage drinking and a bong. anyone know what charges i could be facing?' -keukawake
'being a badass, first degree'- Melvs

I can't believe that I just read all that...All I can say is thanks Altaman. Between you and me we've got two votes for Bush...

if bush wasn't president you wouldn't even be fighting a war right now.



-Strode



Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...

^no, he'd be dead in a wasted NY

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

and if you don't think i support the troops, ask my friend tom who is currently recovering from broken ribs and a collapsed lung when the helicopter he was flying in got shot down. He joined the navy to serve his country while paying for his tuition at the same time, and if that fucking moron retard wasn't in office he'd probably be unhurt sitting in my room right now smoking a bowl with me



-Strode



Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...

^while thousends of women would be dying in football stadium in afghanistan, while guys were totured in iraq ... are you selfish? i think you are

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

In fact, everyone who doesn't support the invasion of EVERY dictatorship around the world must be excessively selfish. Hopefully htis Iraq thing ends soon, so we can get on to the next war. US imposed nation building for all!

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...

haha going to iraq makes the US safer?????? you surely mean less safe? as Iraq had no real links with al-qu'ida this war didn't really help stop terrorism, and in goin to Iraq the US has simply created more enemies - look at all the kidnappings etc. And the US has not managed to make Iraq a safer place at all - although i hear their army is getting good at shooting the British.

By the way, occasionally, the Daily Show actually has a useful guest (You know, in between Marissa Tomei and Tom Cruise). Click Here.

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...

^so your strategy is 'let's do nothing and wait for the danger to look like a real army on ships near NY'?
germany didn't attack US but US freed europe.
iraq was givin money to palestinian terrorist. Israel is an allied of the US, zarkaoui is part of al qaeda and is in iraq .. no link???

just a new time for those who didn't understand 'sometimes, to get peace, you have to be brave enough to make war '
Winston Churchill

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

Keep telling yourself Marines are the cure for fuckin cancer buddy, nobody gives 2 squirts of piss if you volunteer to go dodge bullets in some shit infested pisshole corner of the world. Get a fuckin grip.

----------------------
'Dude, check out this nasty gouge.'
'Your mom has a nasty gouge.'

'221 is fucking hilarious'
~221

punk rider, you mean at afghani football games only women attend? that's a pretty sweet ratio if you ask me. but do they cut the opposing team's hands off if they lose?



-Strode



Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...

^i meant women who were publically killed in stadiums for awful reasons (rape, ...)

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

I offically hate JD and no more respect for that mother fucker. I hate em.
---------------------------------------------------------

Team Fresh

punk rider- thousands of people are still dying in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Altaman, go to school in an extremely liberal, anti-Bush environment, but I can honestly tell you that I don't know one person who doesn't support our troops whole-heartedly and want them to come home safe and sound to their family and friends. I respect your sacrifices on all our behalf, and it's good to see you home.

I'm interested to know more about the situation in Iraq. You said earlier that it's a terrorist hotbed there... does this mean that it's not Iraqis fighting against the U.S. occupiers? I was under the impression that most of the anti-U.S. activity was coming from Saddam loyalists and Iraqis pissed off about the U.S. occupation.

I read a very interesting article in the Oregonian the other day about the Army's difficultly in helping rebuild Iraq and protect those Iraqis who are working with our troops to restructure the government and civil society. Did you have any close interactions with Iraqis who see things the same way that we do? The article was great journalism; it was about soldiers building schools and creating town councils, rather than soldiers getting shot at.

Wayne: 'I don't own a gun, let alone many guns that would necessitate the use of a rack. What am I going to do... with a gun rack?'

Ok, the allusion to the war in Iraq being like the US winning the war in Europe in WWII is total bullshit, dont ever try and pull that again and go read your basic history textbook. Iraq and Germany are not at all similar. Germany was a country where the population backed the leading party because Hitler had taken them out of a depression and had reinstated Germany as a world power afer the sanctions imposed after WWI. When the US entered that war, the outcome was still in question. I think everyone knew who would win when the US went to war with Iraq. Dont try and link the two, it's so stupid I cant believe you're trying to do it.
=================================
Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
*whispers* 'I love your movies!'
'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

^KAMIKAZE:DAMN! how can you say 'AMERICAN OCCUPIERS'!!!!! that's really a shame to me!!! do you think america occupied france in 1944 -45????
say AMERICAN LIBERATORS!!! i really hope you didn't thought what you wrote!

REKKER: sorry if i do feel that a democracy is always right to fight a dictature ...
You american don't know what it is to be occupied coz you never were ... trust me, kurds are the happiest guys on earth now ... thanks to you ? no, thnax to bush

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

I didnt say anything about democracy over dictatorship, you just cant link the two and say that they are alike. Im starting to doubt that you can read, because you sure as hell dont know your modern history and you sure as hell didnt read what i actually wrote.
=================================
Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
*whispers* 'I love your movies!'
'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

Iraq had a nuclear weapons development program, right? So the question is, is there a chance that, when Iraq did obtain a nuclear weapon, they would use it, or give it to a terrorist. And there are terrorists in Iraq, just not osama. In my opinion, america could not take that risk.

rekker: i like the way you want to make people feel your argument can't be discussed! funny way to argue.
nevermind. yeah, a part of the german population was behind adolf, so what? you mean a war is legitimate when the point is to extermine a whole population??? situation are different but wouldn't we link the two??? if chamberlain didn't bent over hitler when he attacked the sudetes, if at that time we fought , maybe WW2 wouldn't have taken such a big level. wanting peace whatever the price, wanting your own comfort is selfish and dumb. forever peace is unreachable unless you have a strong moderate leading country (pax romana??). you got to solve the problems one by one.
so, for you, germans against hitler deserved to be liberated as iraqis against hussein didn't deserve liberty???
i see your point of view ... your a coward selfish man. that's it?

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

Ok, heres my point: You are comparing two completely different models. The comparison you are trying to make is like comparing sex to Bolivia. You just cant compare the two sucsessfully because:
Saddam isn't Hitler.
The US wasnt ASKED to invade Iraq by ANY other countries.
Germany was a WORLD POWER, Iraq was not.
The US never had major PROTESTS when they went to war with Germany.
Germany was occupied by ALLIES after the war, not just US soldiers.
Germany declared war on the US, Iraq never did.
The US president had a FULLY SUPPORTING NATION backing his decision to go to war.


Comparing Germany and Iraq just doesnt work, the only similarity they have is that they are both countries. It pretty much stops at that.
=================================
Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
*whispers* 'I love your movies!'
'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

i don't believe alta went to iraq. and i do believe alta has no idea what he's talking about. just because you're in the army doesn't mean you know whats going on. when is the last time you got a chance to sit down and research on political issues. i respect our troops but sometime they can be real assholes.





---------------------
Good Fun With A Hand Gun.

NO MORE BU** SH**

what hellmut just described is going to war on a whim, which is exactly what bush did.



-Strode



Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...

-Strode



Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...

Ok, i see your point. on that (even if it's not the big point of the problem) here are my remarks:
1 is a president there to do what his country wants or to do what is good for the counrty whatever the population understands or not (at the beginning of the war, you americans were for. nevermind).
2Saddam killed 2,5 million people. it's not as much as hitler, but sorry i have this default: i feel like guys are the same after the first million killed people.
3 Israel and kuwait are safer now, and wanted this war, just like the Kurds (do you remember this people we could in a way compare to jews in germany?).
4 somehow, iraq declared war ten years ago + &0 years breaking UN requirements + 9/11.
5 there are allies there: english, polish, italians, australians are nothing for you?
6 as a part of the muslim ax of evil, iraq is a worldwide power as a safe base for terrorists.

So, even if my point is not to prove absolute similarity, i just think war in europe was good, and that war in iraq is good. so, now that i fucked up your arguments (even if it's absolutely useless in this debate), i'd like to know what do YOU propose to face terrorism and dictature all over the world you smart guy?

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

'Iraq had a nuclear weapons development program, right? So the question is, is there a chance that, when Iraq did obtain a nuclear weapon, they would use it, or give it to a terrorist.'

IRAQ HAD NO WMDS. The US has nuclear weapons - could it use them against countries like Iraq? Although unlikely this is possible - so this justifies the invasion of the US by Iraq?

Also, there are terrorists in the US, in Britain in almost every country - so we should invade all of them according to your logic.

To the punk-rider who said Germany didn't attack US but US freed Europe. First of all don't get me started on the US winning the war - although the US was a great help it did NOT win the war alone, and it did not participate in the whole war. Germany may not have attacked the US but it did invade a whole lot of countries because it 'needed living-space (lebensraum)'. Now these countries had close ties with countries such as the UK and US - thus justifying military action by these powers. Now Iraq did not invade anyone. If there was internal human rights abuse etc. that could have been used as a reason for action, but not by one country whose president uses any excuse to finish his daddy's war - it would have to have involved international peacekeeping forces or the like.

Imposing your “Liberation� on another country can be viewed very differently by the population of that country – you become the invader and occupier. The US (and UK) have no right to dictate moral values to the world and invade countries with no reason.

The point is that Saddam killed over 3,000 of his own people, he used gas against his own people, he threatened his people with nuclear weapons (and it worked to keep rebellions down), he uprised against the government was stopped and arrested, he once again uprised against the government and successfully obtained leadership.

He scared his people with nuclear weapons, weither he had them or not. The tactic worked so he tried it against us. That son of a bitch got put into his place. The point isnt weither or not they have weapons of mass destruction, the point is that he threated the world and made it as if they had these weapons to scare the world. He messed with the UN but some of the UN are pussies so it took us to take out the trash.

Fuck you guys if you think the whole war is bull shit. Fuck you guys if you think that putting soldiers over there is not right, we want people in the world to have the same rights we do. Saddam was a dictator, he was a baby hitler and becoming worse and worse. Fuck you guys that dont support the troops, i want to see your ass trying to fight for your country, proudly. But when you find out half your country doesnt support it, it sucks.

---------------------------------------------------------

Team Fresh

DON'T FORGET POLAND!!



-Strode



Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...

IT'S INCREDIBLE HOW SELFISH AND COWARD PACIFISTS YOU ARE!!! A REASON TO ATTACK IRAQ?

IT WAS A DICTATURE! IT MEANS DEAD PEOPLE, SCARED PEOPLE IN AND OUT THE COUNTRY ...

CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT IT IS TO LIVE IN SUCH A PLACE YOU HAPPY GUYS???
I TELL YOU: YOU DO NOT LIVE!!!!!!

GO AND WATCH A MOVIE MADE BY A KURD SECRETLY IN IRAQ ONE YEAR BEFORE THE WAR THAT WAS PRESENTED IN FRANCE BY THIS KURD WANTING THIS LIBERATION WAR: YOU WOULD SEE SCARED PEOPLE, YOU WOULD SEE A MAN COMIN BACK FROM JAIL WHERE THEY CUT HIS HEARS ONLY BECOZ HE WAS KURD, ...
CAN IMAGINE WHAT IT IS???

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

all right I will not allow myself to criticize the troops' efforts, and please do not consider the fact that I am French to make me an 'anti-Bush' person. But I think that voting Bush and making him win would be the spark that would ignite the world. Bush and its system recruit you Marines and Gis by promising you tons of crap (I will mention that they always recruit in the working class too) and making you think war is fun. You have seen it for yourself, it is not. They are trying to engage people that they think will have no future other than in the military so that rich people like Bush himself and his surroundings don't risk theirs.
Now, vote Bush and that would mean turning America against the world. And not all people engaged in the army vote for Bush I met a guy last spring break I dunno if hes still alive but we were in an airport and he told me that he thought Bush was a Motherfucker.
Anyways I respect everybodys opininons so please don't insult me because of mine.


BUM: Banned Ugly Moron

'so, now that i fucked up your arguments (even if it's absolutely useless in this debate), i'd like to know what do YOU propose to face terrorism and dictature all over the world you smart guy?'

'1 is a president there to do what his country wants or to do what is good for the counrty whatever the population understands or not (at the beginning of the war, you americans were for. nevermind).'

What the fuck are you on? I watched and participated in Anti-war protests before we went to war with Iraq. These protests were held in every major city in the US, the largest having voer than a million demonstrators. You might not have noticed since you live in Europe, but you should have noticed the protests over there, where the Anti-war feeling was much stronger and the protests larger porportionally to the population. For example, Rome had one that had over a million people involved.

'4 somehow, iraq declared war ten years ago + &0 years breaking UN requirements + 9/11.'

May I remind you that STILL:

The US has found NO LINKS BETWEEN IRAQ AND AL QAEDA.


Relating to this, heres an interesting tidbit from PIPA:

'... 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission.'

PIPA Website


Also, another interesting part from the report:

'... 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program.'

And tas for this:
'5 there are allies there: english, polish, italians, australians are nothing for you?'

Our allies are dropping out. England is the only real contributor, everyone knows that. We never had any real allies to start with; notice that France, Germany, Russia and many other nations with influence and power kept thier hands clean of this mess.


'6 as a part of the muslim ax of evil, iraq is a worldwide power as a safe base for terrorists.'

If you seriously believe that Musliums are the axis of evil, way to religiously profile. Yes the 9/11 terrorists were Muslium, yes Osama bin Laden is Muslium, and of course, using your logic, Muslium countries are out to get us. Yeah, I know you dont mean that by what you said, but still, the 'Axis of Evil' that Bush described included North Korea, which has WMD's, Hates the US and has a significant backer for world power: China. Why havent we done anything about them?


Lastly, as for a plan to get out of Iraq, I truly dont know anything that would assuredly work. Iraq is so fucked up now because of what the combined efforts of Bush and Saddam have caused that the country might never be stable, no matter how many soldiers we place there. I would rather have a president who can realize that it is a mess rather than a president who refuses to admit his mistakes.
=================================
Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
*whispers* 'I love your movies!'
'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

bush did what he thought was right and thats as much as you can ask from any president
GMM_Represent

^1, 4, 6 ... some numbers are missing no? nevermind.
my point: did iraq provoked war against kuwait and break UN law that could be sentenced by 'the worse means'? yes.
my point: who cares about al qaeda??? i take muslim terrorism as a whole. when you die in the subway, in building, in a hotel, in a bus, in USA, israel, bali, ... linked to bin laden or not, its the same cause. by terrorists i mean all the fuckers killin for their god that doesn't even exist! it's proven that hussein gave money to the families of the dead palestinian terrorist. was there a link between irak and terorism? YES! ask israeli children who died because of this money.
about WMD: i never thought he had some, and i do not care. as i already said: cambodia: 4 million people dead? it's a mass destruction? made by kalachnikovs. rwanda: 1 million dead people: WMD? swords. the WMD is not defined in itself but by its use.
about Korea: so now you mean Bush should declare war simultenaously to all dictature? the idea is good but at the same time quite difficult!

So what we should do? do nothing and hope no one will attack your towers like france does?


last but not least: if oil is the reason for the war: so what? it's not good to try to get free from saudi arabia control over us? it is not good to give less money to this towel head king financing terrorism? i think it is

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!

punk is dead
_________________________
'You're from Ontario, and you're an idiot, meaning that your opinion can pretty much automatically be dismissed worthless. Yes, I can back that up, I used to live there. Moving to BC really opened up my eyes to what skiing is really about. HINT: Skiing isn't about tiny verticals, shit talking, and private clubs galore. Get the fuck out of Glen Eden and Craigleith or Caledon, and get real.'-what jib this thinks of me

Ok, this argument is just getting circular and less fact based, so I'm just going to say this:

War isnt the only answer to conflict; its just the easiest answer.


=================================
Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
*whispers* 'I love your movies!'
'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

^that's all i ask for!!! please, all you anti war: tell me how to end up with terrorism and dictature. i swear if you got a good possible solution i'll turn anti war

*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
DEATH TO SNOWBOARD-ERS!!
VOTE BUSH!!