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December, 2024

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Where does the idea of economic rights come from?

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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
Civil rights were created to arrange society so resources were most efficiently allocated and to prevent "self-help" violence. More importantly, civil rights pose no tangible cost to anyone.

But where do economic rights come from? No one is born with an economic right. A human being requires 2000 calories and at least a gallon of fresh water a day just to survive for 1 day. Acquiring those resources is harder than we believe.

How does one resolve the net negative a human has with an economic right? I would contend most in the united states right now are actually completely incapable of acquiring the necessary resources just to survive (much less shelter) were it not for a capable few. If the apocolypse were to happen tomorrow, would you have the motivation to learn the skills necessary to survive?

Do you think that motivation would be stronger or less strong than your current motivation to perform your daily tasks?

Do you currently procrastinate important things in your life?

Do you think that procrastination could exist in a world (say, post-apocalyptic) where you are alone?

Would your current mindset lead to your demise?

This is an indictment on people's motivation not their level of education or something like that.
Sep 17 2012 8:45PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10640 - Karma: 7,553
democracy?
Sep 17 2012 8:47PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
so your version of democracy is some people producing output exceeding their real, tangible cost to the energy-matter pool, to cover for people who produce output below it?

why cant everyone produce output over equal to the calories they consume? in fact the poorest in the country consume the most calories. why is that?
Sep 17 2012 8:51PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10640 - Karma: 7,553
troll?
Sep 17 2012 8:54PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
stirring some real conversation among adolescent teenagers on the internet always comes off as trolling....

oh well i dont care. you guys will get to vote soon (help us god). i dont care what you think of me. but i do feel a moral obligation to impart academia in a take-it-or-leave-it fashion to you. even if it convinces a few to use their free time more wisely, i think its useful.
Sep 17 2012 8:56PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
When humans lived in tribes if a member got injured they were helped by the rest of the tribe given food and they had tribal doctors and stuff. When members became elderly they were helped by the rest of the tribe. its evolution.
Sep 17 2012 8:58PM
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clive_bixby
Posts: 1834 - Karma: 499
what the fuck are you talking about
Sep 17 2012 9:03PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
if 1 got injured, his cost could be spread among the rest of the tribe. when 5% grew elderly, his cost was spread to the other 95% of the tribe.

when we evolved into societies, people developed specialization of labor where some traded skill labor for manual. at the very least, all produced output equal to or greater than their daily bodily consumption of calories (that is, they produced output greater than the calorie cost of procuring the calories for survival)

nevertheless im not targeting the elderly or sick.

im targeting people like you who have computers and access to internet. And yet you will never truly try aim for the stars and perhaps settle on the moon, because you have disdain for what it takes to reach that height. And because you are content with complacency and "sustainability" you will consume more calories than you produce.
Sep 17 2012 9:04PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10640 - Karma: 7,553
no you started talking about calorie count, and then productivity...
Sep 17 2012 9:04PM
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Tree60
Posts: 1438 - Karma: 4,961
So what i think you're implying is that we should all go into communism. Everybody does their fair share and everybody gets what they need to survive. Yes/no?
Sep 17 2012 9:06PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
im prescribing the opposite. im saying we should motivate ourselves to be more self sufficient and stop recognizing an economic right. there is no economic right in reality. there is an irreconcilable reality to human that no system of government can overcome. Therefore, we should stop trying to adjust wealth distribution. We should try to take charge of our own, individual governments ie our lives.
Sep 17 2012 9:12PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
Because i not going to get rich i am a drag on society? news flash every one can't be rich in fact the more people that are rich the more that have to be poor. And for you reasons on why i won't get rich i'll give you 3. 1 i would rather be skiing then strapped to sum job Money is hardly hapines. 2 i probbably don't have the intellegince or talent or luck. 3 even if i did have said luck or talent i feel that over consumption by the rich hurts others (not saying everyone should be economically equal just that greed shouldn't dominate society.)
Sep 17 2012 9:14PM
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Tree60
Posts: 1438 - Karma: 4,961
What about inheritances? People who didn't work their asses off to get money. They just got it. When there is truly a place for every single person in the job market, then we can talk, but right now people litterally cannot get jobs. They try and can't. What about them? let em die? no, we give them the right to live.
Sep 17 2012 9:20PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
pretty much this we are arguing over whether food, water and friends are a right. op thinks not i think. I don't know which is correcect just what i belive.
Sep 17 2012 9:25PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
you are talking about relative wealth. I am talking about tangible wealth. If we all go out and plant potatoes, we will be relatively poor, but tangibly wealthy.

1. the fact you would rather be skiing than strapped to "sum job" shows me you have decided a life of unwealthiness. Why the fuck would I, a person who is busting his ass to reach the top tax bracket, want to pay extra taxes to help people like you?

2. you do have the intelligence, talent, but probably not luck. intelligence and talent are both skills that you can develop with practice. Good news for you most things in the real world that pay do not require any physical skills, only mental ones which can always be improved (barring severe damage)

3. Consumption by the rich is super beneficial to others. Some people want to work towards their talents and most talents would not have uses were it not for demand. that type of demand is only created by wealthy buying shit they dont need. Otherwise, we would all be working even more soul crushing jobs producing only things people need.

How on earth does consumption by the rich hurt others??? think about when a rich person buys 1 rolex. think about how many different people go into that. Or 1 mercedes benz? You create specialization when u buy 1 luxury product and the aggregate effect is creating not only a lot of jobs, but interesting, desireable jobs.
Sep 17 2012 9:26PM
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NotGhood
Posts: 2809 - Karma: 1,255
I think you're a communist...
Sep 17 2012 9:27PM
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extravert
Posts: 1113 - Karma: 3,192
what?
Sep 17 2012 9:29PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
That is a tiny, tiny, tiny minority.

And inheritance is no where near as beneficial as you think. You think people like romney paid their way into Harvard? Is that a joke? People who dont try to apply to harvard have no idea what it takes and develop these ideas that you need privilege to get in. That is total fucking bullshit and creates a vicious cycle where people dont even try because they think you need X dollars. The opposite is true.

Right now people aren't trying hard enough to make themselves hireable. Im not even talking about the super poor. Im talking about college educated people making choices such as that AC3 guy (is? will be?) deciding he would rather be skiing than stuck in "sum job". such a mindset makes me puke.


my point is, i would say the majority of people who feel victimized at any level have every means to improve their lives. They just lead shit lifestyles. We can all take action to make our production and lives just a little better and the aggregate effect would be huge.
Sep 17 2012 9:30PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
On your first point i'm not saying i want to rely on society i can work a minimum wage job or do what it takes to sustaine myself but i have no further oblagation. i was referring to the people who don't have the capabilty to help them selves. And on your third point so a rich guy buys a huge ass diamond that really benifits the kid in the Serra Leone with one arm.
Sep 17 2012 9:31PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
i could not be farther from communism...
Sep 17 2012 9:32PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
He is actually the complete oposite but thanks for your 2 cents.
Sep 17 2012 9:33PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
^
Sep 17 2012 9:34PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
how do you have no further obligation than working a minimum wage job???? If you make below 80k single you will only have to pay 25% income tax. I busted my fucking ass in law school and will make over 170k and pay 33%. why THE FUCK should i pay 8% more than you on nearly double the money (assuming u ever make 80k/year) because you chose to ski instead of bust ass????

you represent the majority of the victimized "middle class". You want to have your cake and eat it too.

Who doesnt have the capability to help themselves?? Literally only the handicapped.

Ok when a rich person buys an illegal blood diamond it benefits the kid from sierra leone. But more commonly rich people are buying allen edmonds shoes (wholly made in the USA), or bespoke suits (the product of individual tailors wholly made in the USA). In fact poor people buying cheaper products send money to china. Rich people buy things made in the USA or UK. Why? because its more expensive, better made, and its a status symbol frankly.
Sep 17 2012 9:36PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
Enlightenment writing and British and American common law indicates that it in your described situation, there would be no such thing as morals, and thus it would be indifferent to kill another person for food to survive another week. Morals are a human invention and in your situation, we would be degraded to animals. Animals kill each other in competition to survive.


When you buy a BMW or 3 2000 square foot houses you are paying someone to design the bmw, someone to finance the bmw, someone to build the bmw, someone to market the bmw, and someone to sell the bmw. when you buy the house you are paying someone for a fancier rifigerator, a pool, artisan countertop, integrated electrician, "green energy", etc. The more luxurious the purchases the greater the specialization of labor. The greater the specialization of labor, the greater the progress of technological advances.

And the answer to my original question is: we can get an economic right and reconcile our energy cost to the earth by inventing an energy source that exceeds demand. And we do that through techonological advance. And we get there through specialization of labor.
Sep 17 2012 9:41PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
ok i thought you were a lassez faire guy opposite of communist. but the whole "i have an obligation to society thing" is statest or "big brother" just without the econmics of a communist. and no i do not represent the victimized middle class because i myself am not victimized i chose not to try to get rich and to ski i could start trying if i wanted to but it's my choice however there are people in the world and even in this country who don't have a choice they are stuck in a life of shit because of rich elitists.
Sep 17 2012 9:42PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
u need that much water to breathe. You need oxygen. Oxygen comes from plants. Plants consume freshwater.
Sep 17 2012 9:43PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
no. what im saying is. I fully respect your choice to ski and not work. But if you do, you better not demand one bit of a progressive tax rate.


Im saying you cant have your cake and eat it too.

Im also demonstrating a point. Everyone who think they are stuck in life is not stuck in life. they are just pussys/lazy like you (save a very small percent). And I'm sick of them demanding taxes from people like me because somewhere along the line they made a choice similar to yours to "not get rich" or not get stuck in "sum job"
Sep 17 2012 9:45PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
Once again i'm not talking about myself i'm saying the people who bust their ass 60 hours a week for a minimium wage job so there kids have food on the table shouldn't be lefted to die.
Sep 17 2012 9:48PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
they bust their ass 60 hours a week for a minimum wage job because people are more risk adverse than a truly rational actor should be. in other words he is not willing to break out of his comfort zone by applying for a stafford or graduate PLUS loan (which nearly anyone can do, and which will more than cover the cost of supporting a family while in school), study hard enough (literally any healthy person can do this without the aid of kaplan) to score high on an entrance exam, applying to school to earn a graduate degree, and then make 5 times what they made before.

Sep 17 2012 9:53PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
thats bullshit 90% of the people if born into a shit situation (that the government made through drug wars jim crow and the law sistem) won't be able to do what you are saying society holds them back maybe a very small percentage of society can cudos to them that should be admired however the fact of the matter is that rich people are not "superior" to every one else most of the time its just luck. If einstien was born as a kid from the dem republic of the congo there wouldn't be a theroy of reletivity.
Sep 17 2012 9:58PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
how the f is one going to be able to get in to stanford when they had to drop out of hs at 16 to support their brothers and mom who has a crack addiction (that the us government gave to them) not to mention the shit public school in poor communities
Sep 17 2012 10:03PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
your hypotheticle situation is better than mine but same point. This guy is an ass hole.
Sep 17 2012 10:07PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
why would they have to drop out? He didnt need to drop out the previous 16 years of his life, why now? why did he not apply for a student loan (which he will pay back with 6% interest?) A story like that will greatly increase your chance of getting into stanford anyway.


My point is not directed at ppl like that. 90% of our country is not like that. 90% of our country are like you.

When you can work, and assuming you can make 80k, i will be paying 56k in income tax while you pay 20k. Why the fuck would i owe that much more? Averaged out, i will literally be giving you 18k PER YEAR.

Do oyu think I should be giving a honda civic every single year?
Sep 17 2012 10:08PM
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Tree60
Posts: 1438 - Karma: 4,961
No. just because 90% of our country isn't like that doesn't mean we shouldn't support that 10 percent. also, try to even come close to supporting a family at age 16 without dropping out of school. literally impossible.
Sep 17 2012 10:10PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
you are honestly stupid your not giving that money to "me" your giving it to the government. you pay higher taxes because you can afford to. a person below the povety line does not because they would die.
Sep 17 2012 10:13PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
again i have to explain the transitive property?

my god... here it goes again:

80k x .25 = 20k. 170k x .33 = 56k. 56k-20k= 36k. No matter what between you and me (assuming you will make 80k) we have a difference of 36k between our total of 76k paid to the government. It requires that we both pay 76k no matter how u look at it. Therefore, i am covering 18k of your share. Even if the money goes to a poor person, the government seems to require 76k from the two of us to pay them, yet i am paying 36k more than you. Therefore, i am giving you 18k to give to poor people.
Sep 17 2012 10:27PM
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Tree60
Posts: 1438 - Karma: 4,961
Alright, finally figured out what you are saying. You are using the "I built this so i should reap from it, and nobody else should" argument. Untrue, unless you plan on not using public transport, roads and things that the rest of america helped provide for you. You need to do you part to help the rest of america, because they helped you.
Sep 17 2012 10:30PM
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cubber
Posts: 1933 - Karma: 638
I've thought about this countless times. what would you do?
run to a grocery, to get food?
run to a nursery, to grow food?
run to some weapons shop, to arm/defend yourself, steal food, or hunt for food?

personally, i think there'd be so much panic immediately that there would be murders all over for a while, then things would cool down and there'd be gangs of bandits for me to sneak up on and steal their shit

hopefully i'll be as good as my imagination and i'll be invisible. can't touch me
Sep 17 2012 10:33PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
not at all what im saying. Im saying just because you choose not to use public transport, roads, and things that the rest of america helped provide for ME, doesn't mean you dont get to pay less for it. Because the only reason you get that choice is because america has sufficiently secured itself to create both leisure time to pursue other interests as well as the robustness of its democracy to let you freely choose your destiny.


I am not saying i shouldn't pay taxes or we should pay the same taxes. Im saying we should pay the same rate on taxes and for you to quit bitching. I dont even care about the taxes. I just care about your bitching. bitching is negative and defeatist. The reason you have something to bitch about is because you bitch. If you spent less time bitching and more time taking steps to imrpove your life on a daily basis, you would contribute to an aggregate effect that would ACTUALLY bring people out of poverty.
Sep 17 2012 10:36PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
useless?

When hurrican isaac hits and the federal govt needs money who are they gonna look to for money? You? you make nothing. What use are you giving to the world? roller blading?
Sep 17 2012 10:49PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
fuck you its every ones right to pursue happinies
Sep 17 2012 10:50PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 52004 - Karma: 166,752
If you had to work but could pretty much get by without working and still eat fine, or literally had to work to grow food or starve, well It's pretty obvious that the second would leave you more motivated.

Sep 17 2012 10:51PM
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cubber
Posts: 1933 - Karma: 638
Click for larger image
Sep 17 2012 10:52PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
youre right. i dont care about the tax rate. i have no opinion on it. whatever the finance specialists decides is the best system is good for me. they went to school for finance, i didnt, and im smart enough to defer to them.


but the rhetoric is unbelievable. is negative and defeatist. my comments on tax was simply to illuminate the actual injustice that someone who chooses to say, rollerbalde, gets to pay 1/3 the tax i pay when i am here working 14 hours/ day and took on big risks with my life.
Sep 17 2012 11:03PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
youre contridictiong your self this whole thread is about how you feel the government shouldn't support the less fortunate not tax rates.
Sep 17 2012 11:06PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
I never said the government should not support the less fortunate.

What im really saying is. you are not "less fortunate" and therefore the government should not support people like you. What im also saying is you are representative of the vast majority. You think you are less fortunate because of some graph and how much your parents made, but really it is because you made choices. You can change those choices but you choose not to. Thus no money can change your situation. Even if i give you more money, you will not be any more productive. It will be a sunk investment. Because you will still be skiing. So why should i be covering your tax burden? You chose to ski all the time, the govt should take the same from me and you from a normative standpoint.


Sometimes this is feasible, sometimes it is not. it is for the finance guys to determine. Not me. Most of all, not you.
Sep 17 2012 11:09PM
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Ac31stuff
Posts: 557 - Karma: 10
From an Economic stand point if you taxed the midlle class 35% the economy would be fucked in the current system.
Sep 17 2012 11:15PM
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