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60fps question?

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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
Ok so I just got a t2i, I got it as a b cam for video the biggest thing of why I got it is to shoot 60 frames instead of only 24fps on my d300s.

So Ive noticed that in almost any video out there for skiing everyone seems to slow their footage down just a little bit. But I'm Wondering how they do this because when you convert a video from 60fps to 30fps it becomes very slow. It seems like it is much slower than any of the videos i see where it just looks like they slow it down just a little bit and it doesn't distort the audio or anything like that. So my question is how do you guys slow down your footage just a little bit?

Heres an example of what I'm talking about.

1) these whole videos seem that every shot has been slowed down just a little bit

This one is very slow so it may be conformed to 30fps


2) This one seems to be slowed down VERY LITTLE if at all

Jun 17 2012 12:03PM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
3) this one is in between 1 and 2 (skiing starts at :46)

Jun 17 2012 12:05PM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
and here is mine (ignore the shot of the rail str8 on it is bad and it was shot on the d300s)


why is mine so much slower than the rest and why is the audio so distorted and how can I change the speed to a more intermediate speed
Jun 17 2012 12:07PM
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CrotchKiller
Posts: 9037 - Karma: 6,943
command-J

change speed %

i think thats what you're looking for
Jun 17 2012 12:21PM
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erikK
Posts: 3245 - Karma: 2,328
a lot of people conform all of their 60p footage to 30p so that everything is slow and then they speed up the clips that they want at normal speed. i prefer to just edit everything at 60p and then slow down what i need to, works great in premiere but im not sure about fcp
Jun 17 2012 12:24PM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
yea I'm running premiere and yea that sounds like that would work i just always thought that video was like jpeg pictures in the fact that the more changes and saves you make, the quality would decrease but it sounds like i am wrong. I will give that a try thanks!
Jun 17 2012 12:33PM
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edai
Posts: 4988 - Karma: 4,658
Why would you buy a CANON T2i when you have NIKON D300s?

Now you're going to have to buy seperate lenses for each?
Jun 17 2012 12:34PM
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the.cheat
Posts: 2859 - Karma: 171
yeah i was thinking that, but anyways not to dick ride but i never realized how smooth eheath is with a glidecam till i watched that first edit.
Jun 17 2012 12:43PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
Click for larger image
Jun 17 2012 12:44PM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
It is a little bit counter productive, but i figured that I was good on lenses with my nikon covering focal distance from 17-200 all @ 2.8 and that canon was far in front of nikon video wise. and I didn't want to go with the gh2 because A) i didn't want to jank with adapters on 100% of my lenses (as of with my canon I don't use adapters on anything but my tele) and B) the t2i did enough for me and the gh2 was far out of my realm of knowledge so i would not be using it to its fullest and C) I figured it wouldnt be bad to get a basic lens collection in the 2 big camera companies for the future

as of right now anyway for video I only want a 17-50 (which i have) and a 11-16 for my canon then i can adapt my tele to the canon if I ever need it

so it really isn't a bad deal and it isn't anymore money than I would of if i went the gh2 path

The only bad part is carrying both sets of lenses with me but that is still not bad because I would of bought an 11-16 for the nikon anyway and so I'm only carrying one pair of copies which is that i have a 17-50 in both mounts
Jun 17 2012 12:59PM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
and this. I have only bought 1 lens for the canon and i can always buy my future lenses in the the nikon mount and use them on both my cameras i haven't done anything yet so I will have time to consider the options
Jun 17 2012 1:03PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,945
Shoot your regular speed stuff in 24p, the stuff you want slightly slower in 30p, and the really slow stuff in 60p. In post, use a 24p timeline; leave 24p as realtime, slow down the 30p footage to 80% (30 x 0.8 = 24) and slow down the 60p footage to 40% (same idea as before).

Voila.

That what you were looking for?
Jun 17 2012 6:24PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,089
I shoot everything 60p, edit in a 60p timeline and export 24p or 30p. I slow down shots in final cut, i dont conform.
Jun 18 2012 3:39AM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
when you export as 24p or 30p does it automatically slow the footage down? how would that be different from just changing the frame rate like you do in go pro cineform when you change the 60p to 23.98
Jun 18 2012 10:35AM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
because when you conform, it plays all of the frames back, but at 24p instead of 60p. when you just export at 24p, it chooses 24 out of every 60 frames to display, so it stays at the same speed.
Jun 18 2012 11:43AM
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B.Taillefer
Posts: 420 - Karma: 321
Would that decrease the quality at all? Because if it is only picking 24 out of every 60 frames to display where do those other 36 frames go? It seems like some information would be lost doing that
Jun 18 2012 2:10PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
some frames are chosen, others are left behind. imagine it this way:

this is your 60p video. every 'l' represents a frame

lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll but when you export to 24, it pulls out certain frames:
l l l l l l l l l l


that's not exact at all, but you get the idea. systems use specific patterns to do this in the best way possible. now of course your video won't look as smooth as it did at 60p, but that's fine. frankly, i hate the way 60 looks when it's played at 60. 24p is a more cinematic frame rate, and it's what we're used to seeing in movies, which is why i prefer seeing edits that are exported at 24p.


if you're worried about quality being degraded, just check out eheath's edits and i'm sure you will see that it looks completely fine.

Jun 18 2012 3:00PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
that didnt really work. the top and bottom row of bars are supposed to be the same length (meaning the clip length stays the same), but the bottom row has fewer bars that more spaced out (fewer frames)
Jun 18 2012 3:01PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Remind me why you do this again? Final Cut is notoriously bad at processing motion/frame rates. So much that Apple said "fuck it, let's make a dedicated program for frame rates."
Jun 18 2012 3:14PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,089
Because I like being able to choose my speed more accurately vs having an already slowed down shot and having to speed it up (which imo looks weird sometimes). Ive slowed clips from 40%-90% and the only issue ive had is going to 24p, recently i tried slowing down shots to 40% in my time line, export full quality 60 and they look great then when i export it to 24 they get fucked up. This is why i've been exporting 30 recently and it has sovled the problem for now.

Since im getting just as good results as I might get conforming (which with my 1080p60 shots gets annoying because i have to export another clip and then put it through cinematools. Also, my cinema tools doesnt even work, so another lazy reason why i have been using it.
Jun 18 2012 4:15PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
I'm not sure I understand.

In my mind, the only acceptable frame rates are the ones the camera shoots natively, as using a percentage-based system doesn't add up mathematically (aside from values that replicate conforming to standard frame rates) and creates motion problems.

If you're using Cinema Tools, why would you export two copies of a clip? If you shot 60p, it's going to look like ass unless it's conformed to 24fps (or 30fps to some). Even then, you could always keep your backup copy of that clip in .mts form and only have the one, conformed and transcoded version.
Jun 18 2012 4:54PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,089
It has something to do with the prores 422 LT clip created by clipwrap, FCP like it but cinema tools doesn't. This problem is unknown and possibly just a small software problem between clipwrap and cinematools. So i have to run it through mpeg streamclip and create a new clip to use in cinema tools. which is nice cause then i have 60p and conformed 24p but i didnt like that work flow at all and my cinematools stopped working. I like what I do now and it works quite well.
Jun 18 2012 5:02PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,499
If your using Premiere then after effects will be your friend for this. Your best bet may be to do a basic edit to work out timings, then when you know which shots you want slowed, open a dynamic link to after effects, or just the the clip into after effects. Just remember if you render out of premiere to use a lossless file type so you dont lose quality. Then you can use the time remap function. This allows you to keyframe your clip slowing down, then speeding back up. It usually looks better to go from real speed to slow, then just have a slowed clip.

Once you have the timing worked out, take that clip back to premiere, again either with the dynamic link or a lossless file. This is the best workflow I have found as after effects gives much more control then any editing program.

Generally only shoot a higher frame rate if you plan to slow it down. Conforming footage later usually gives a jumpy feel as random frames are missed out. Also filming at higher frame rates will change the motion blur so some shots may look weirdly sharp in conparision to the regular footage.

This is just my workflow and Im sure others have differnt possibly better, but this works well for me, in my work.
Jun 18 2012 10:24PM
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SSteezle
Posts: 9297 - Karma: 7,706
threads to hear about some other's workflows. kinda surprised people edit in a 60fps timeline
Jun 18 2012 11:00PM
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NJurkiewicz
Posts: 1597 - Karma: 697
threads

Jun 19 2012 11:11PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,089
I used to edit 30p/24p when i had an hvx because FCP had this handy little plugin/tool that conformed you DVCPROHD files (only theses file types aka p2) right in FCP and created the file and everything and it took 5 secs to have a conformed clip. I miss that a lot and is one of the main reasons i edit 60 now, its so much easier.
Jun 20 2012 4:14AM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
Didn't fell this was big enough to make a whole new thread and I figured it matches this thread so Im pretty new to anything Slow motion and Im wondering how they make their shots this slow @ 60fps? Anytime I slow mine down less than 24fps equivalent it looks a lot faster then this... (Im talking about the first bike shots) Ive heard of "twixtor" but Im wondering how you do it
Jun 30 2012 7:47PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,089
seeing how there isn't any warping, they were probably using a high speed camera like a phantom.
Jun 30 2012 8:05PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
There is some warping, it's just hidden pretty well. looks like twixtor to me
Jun 30 2012 9:36PM
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BolderPro
Posts: 767 - Karma: 426
Yea I'm not absolutely sure of it but I thought I saw something about this video were they said that it was shot on a 7d, But I could be wrong
Jun 30 2012 11:16PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,089
word i only watched a short amount if it but ya def twixtor just done well
Jul 1 2012 12:26AM
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mBall
Posts: 1690 - Karma: 2,827
threads.
Jul 1 2012 2:00AM
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NPF
Posts: 5152 - Karma: 12,116
.
Jul 1 2012 3:32AM
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J-Sway
Posts: 685 - Karma: 111
Again, threads
Jul 5 2012 11:43AM
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juicedrummer11
Posts: 1960 - Karma: 1,331
lately i have found myself editing in a 60fps timeline in FCP if i know im using quite a bit of real time shots to go with the slow mo. ive been getting pretty decent results with that so far but we'll see when i export to 24 frames. i slow all my 60fps footage to 40% tho so it should come out fine
Jul 5 2012 1:04PM
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