Peaceful Parenting

First of all- as someone stated later in this thread, you should not compare children with women and minorities. Children should not have the same rights as adults.

Second of all- kids need to learn to respect their parents. When they step out of line, parents need to take measures to ensure that children know what acceptable behavoir is and what isn't.

Based on how you responded to Rachy, I can see that you lack respect. You don't say things like that about other people's parents- you just don't. What gives you the right to judge the methods of others? You don't have children, and you haven't walked in their shoes.

Additionally, you apparently don't even think it's acceptable to threaten children with withholding toys. What forms of discipline do you support?  Now parents can’t even take away their children’s privileges? Children are not entitled to TV, video games, toys, allowances, etc. These are privileges that should be earned.

You have yet to suggest what you think should be used in lieu of threats or spanking.   The video posted of the child hitting his mother is a good example of what children can be like when you don’t establish yourself as the alpha. The child feels like he should have the same rights as his mother. She allows him to take the dominant, alpha role. This child has not been given boundaries. If my child slapped me, I’d clean his clock, and trust me- he wouldn’t do it again.

And no, this wouldn’t be hypocritical, because parents have the right to discipline their children. Children do not have the right to discipline their parents.

'Don't touch the fire" we consider this an affordable bad decision so to speak. We told you, you burned your finger. The consequence is the burn and they learn from this. This makes their action the bad guy, not you yelling at them or spanking them which I believe teaches them don't do it or Daddy gets mad. We do use increased levels of punishment if she "tests the water, time out, toy jail, no story time etc... This has worked for us so far.

By no means am I saying we have parenting all figured out, we are just trying to teach her values at a young age. Hopefully this sticks with her as she gets older and begins to make more choices on her own.

You have a 2.5 year old girl. It sounds like your parenting methods are working for you. However, not every parent deals with the same situations. Take some of the children on doctor Phil that have rage tantrums and threaten their mothers and siblings with knives. You might still say that you would never spank your child, and that could be true- but do you really feel that you have the right to look down on and judge parents who are in these situations? Not every child is the same, and some parents have more difficult children to deal with than others.

I'm not a parent but my brother is a sociopath and I've seen first-hand parents trying to raise a child that they themselves are scared of. He's 30 now and it is still an everyday struggle.  This story belongs in an entirely different thread, though.

As far as the studies go-- you can google "studies against spanking" or you can google "studies for spanking." I see studies that show spanked children have lower IQs-- I also see studies that show spanked children have higher IQs and are more likely to succeed. You can find arguments in both directions. And to reiterate what everyone else has said, there's a big difference between spanking and beating.

I don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all to parenting. I think there are children that have been spanked, that could probably have benefited more from a different approach. I also think there are children that weren't spanked, that could have benefited from being spanked.

Completely agree.

Side Note - Just found out this afternoon we have a boy on the way so I'm pretty pumped right now!

I never did say whether I was for or against spanking. I'm for allowing parents to choose for themselves.

You say I'm on the wrong side, but I never did pick a side- whether or not I spank my own children is something I will decide when I become a parent.  Until then, I haven't been there, so I cannot say what I would do.  However, I don't judge other parents for their methods. 

and- nature vs nurture is an argument that continues to be scientifically debated.

like I said- you can find scientific evidence in either direction. What I have found, though, is that everything I can find online does differentiate physical abuse from spanking. You do not. And no, I did not search far and wide for this article-- it came up on the top of google. Are you going to reply with some reason that this scientific study is BS and any that you link are the only ones with any real merit?

Clinical Child and Family Psychology

(1), 1-37. http://www.springerlink.com/content/k0x4468k255187qg/

This is the most current and up-to-date review of the scientific studies on child outcomes ofnonphysical punishment in one study. See the full meta-analysis or its executive summary above

corporal punishment. This is the only scientific review that

a. compares the child outcomes of corporal punishment vs. alternative disciplinary tactics

that parents could use instead,

b. distinguishes among the outcomes of four types of corporal punishment (overly severe,

predominant usage, customary spanking, and conditional spanking [which is optimal]), or

c. corrects for pre-existing differences in outcomes, by comparing outcomes of corporal

punishment with alternative disciplinary tactics.

The outcomes of corporal punishment compared unfavorably with alternatives only when used

too severely or as the primary disciplinary method. The optimal usage, called conditional

spanking, led to better child outcomes than 10 of 13 disciplinary tactics, generally with 2- to 6-

year-old children. This shows that the optimal use of nonabusive spanking is to enforce milder

disciplinary tactics when children are defiant. Only one alternative (Roberts’ room time out) has

been shown to reduce defiance in pre-delinquents as effectively as conditional spanking, and that

alternative would also be banned by some extreme anti-spanking laws that ban all use of force to

correct children’s behavior. Such extreme bans would thereby prohibit some of the most

effective psychological treatments for young pre-delinquent children and for physical child

abusers (e.g., Parent-Child Interaction Therapy). The review also found that the outcomes of

customary spanking did not compare either favorably or unfavorably with any alternative

disciplinary tactic, except that customary spanking reduced substance abuse more than

for more details.

3. Larzelere, R. E. (2000). Child outcomes of non-abusive and customary physical punishment

by parents: An updated literature review.

more here: http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/nztabconts.47.pdf

you originally said your statistic was from the 90's and then said my 2007 source was dated? You posted nospank.net and then tell me that my study is biased?

Anyway- it doesn't really matter what I post. You said my source was "not BS" but then pretty much called it BS in the rest of your post.

Yes, but you originally used the statistic as relevant to an argument about hitting/spanking today/now. I'm assuming your original post wasn't referring to 1985. I understand that you later admitted your statistic was wrong/dated, but not until you were called out. Although 2007 was 5 years ago, I'm not sure much has changed in the way that "hitting" or spanking a child affects them. Has technology or any other advances between 2007 and 2012 changed the way spanking affects children? You say there has been study after study between 2007 and now that discredit the one from 2007. Please post them.

Additionally, we are not debating on equal terms. As long as you don't differentiate between hitting/physical abuse and spanking, and you lump them together as spanking, then we are not on the same page. The reason I posted that study is because it breaks down corporal punishment and acknowledges that some forms are harmful, but it also differentiates between different forms of spanking and child abuse. From what I've seen in this thread- you do not. From what I've gathered (and correct me if I'm wrong) you consider all forms of spanking/hitting/beating in the same category? If this is the case, we are not debating on like-terms and continuing would be futile.

If the studies that you reference-- the "study after study" proving my source from 2007 invalid, break down corporal punishment and differentiate between spanking and hitting, then I'd love to see the sources. However--if you/your studies don't acknowledge a difference, than our studies/arguments are not apples to apples.

Well, if you had posted an up-to-date stat, it would have given your argument (at least at first glance) more creditability, as it would have (at least at first glance) implied that many have changed their stance.

You say "a field" as if five years makes an equal difference in any field-- it doesn't. I don't doubt that five years can make a difference in regards to studies on corporal punishment, however, my educational background is not in this field, so I don't know the difference five years can make in a study related to corporal punishment (2007-2012). My question was genuine. Please inform me- I don't doubt that you have read more on this subject than me, in fact- I can guarantee it.

I am not trying to waste anyone's time, but I would be interested in reading some credible studies on how spanking-- as defined under conditional spanking in the article I referenced-- is harmful to the development of children and how it relates to substance abuse, IQ and criminality.

This thread is three pages, but I have only seen you post one source. If you really want to get your message across, post more sources--do so in a manner that isn't arrogant and condescending, and show some respect in regards to other posters' parents. They took their time to post their experiences and opinions in your thread- don't call their parents failures, wretched, or anything along those lines- it's really not in your place, regardless of how you genuinely feel about them.