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"We need to look at NASA not as a handout, but as an investment."

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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570


Fresh out, NS'ers.

Don't forget to sign the petition as well!
Jun 4 2012 12:14AM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,945
I gotta say, that guy had a pretty inspiring voice.
Jun 4 2012 12:22AM
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JWoods
Posts: 2369 - Karma: 2,635
I haven't watched it yet but I'm assuming that it's Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Jun 4 2012 12:25AM
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iFlip
Posts: 4543 - Karma: 19,132
Good post. It makes me sad that NASA is not what it once was. As a nation we deserve to have NASA as a feather in our cap.
Jun 4 2012 12:32AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
where should we take money from, to give to NASA?

if we take it from defense we risk losing military superiority. not to mention the ability to help our allies deal with their problems.


not to mention, to actually do the Space thing right, it would take a helluva lot more money than even the crunchiest hippy could wring from the defense budget. where is that money gonna come from?
Jun 4 2012 12:33AM
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powderdrunkie
Posts: 2034 - Karma: 976
check this out:

http://mars-one.com/

also, we haven't even explored anywhere near 100% of the earths oceans yet; Though, I find space travel very interesting, I feel it is inevitability unnecessary.
Jun 4 2012 12:35AM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
People never understand how small the budget actually is.

If you ask people they always think it's MUCH higher than it really is. Try it. I did it the other day and it's remarkable how common of a misconception it is.

It's barely a half of a penny on a tax dollar, if you round up. It is .0046 of the national budget. That is so fucking small it's absolutely disgraceful.

They can afford to take a bit from the defense budget. They can afford to take a bit from social security. They can afford to take a bit from foreign aid.

NASA pays itself back as time goes on. Sure, in the short run it may look silly but the innovations and technology that are produced as a result and proliferate society abound. Next time you get up for school or work in the morning, think about it.

You get up and microwave your breakfast - courtesy of NASA. You check your extremely accurate weather forecast (NASA) on your mobile phone (NASA), and then you go on your way to work. You use your GPS (NASA) to find the building where your meeting is, and the reason you don't die on the way to your meeting in the pouring rain is because NASA figured out that grooving the pavement for the shuttle to land was a good idea.

We used to not have to outsource because we were doing and making products so complex that the rest of the world couldn't figure it out, and those days are over now. China is building HUGE dams, while India is building massive skyscrapers and incredible feats of architecture.

What are we doing? Our infrastructure is collapsing. That should worry you.
Jun 4 2012 12:43AM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
Oh god formatting disaster.
Jun 4 2012 12:43AM
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Forkstealer
Posts: 508 - Karma: 16
I just logged in to post exactly this. QFT.
Jun 4 2012 12:48AM
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Pikachu.
Posts: 1290 - Karma: 1,641
I agree
Jun 4 2012 12:50AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
why are you wrong?

this is why: you are looking at the current budget.

let me know what percentage of the budget was put into NASA in the 1950's and 1960's(times when we actually made progress). Now adjust for inflation and reglect on your ignorance. thanks.
Jun 4 2012 12:54AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
so now you are arguing against giving money to NASA? your bipolar post is amusing.
Jun 4 2012 12:56AM
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icon1234
Posts: 3081 - Karma: 1,475
1962 1,257 1.18% 12,221 1963 2,552 2.29% 24,342 1964 4,171 3.52% 33,241 1965 5,092 4.31% 33,514 1966 5,933 4.41% 32,106 1967 5,425 3.45% 29,696 1968 4,722 2.65% 26,139 1969 4,251 2.31% 21,376
3rd column: % of fed budget, 4th column: Adjusted to constant 2007 million dollars.

Not really an economist at all, but I feel like I could live with those numbers and take away from SS or military spending.
Jun 4 2012 1:12AM
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icon1234
Posts: 3081 - Karma: 1,475
Sweet formatting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA.
Jun 4 2012 1:13AM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
(DISCLAIMER! I AM NO EXPERT ON WORLD ECONOMICS!)

India has oil.

China is riding on the debt we owe them.

NASA is what helped transform us into the economic world power we are today, among other things. It was all about proving to the Russians that we were better, but regardless, we have coasted on the innovations of that generation for decades and it's quickly wearing off.

You're aware that the algorithms developed to clear the images from the Hubble telescope when it went up with it's botched optical lens went into machines that can now detect breast cancer much earlier and much more accurately than ever before, right?

My point is this - these advancements are made by people who frankly do not give a shit about the fields their discoveries are implemented in. Physics, chemistry, whatever. They discover these principles and they trickle down to every other aspect of society.

Space is hard, and it's sure as hell dangerous, and it requires you to innovate. You cannot foresee the innovations that issue forth from space exploration, nor can you expect anything other than STEM fields to produce them. NASA is arguably the most inspirational of all of them. How many kids want to be an astronaut when they're little? It inspires kids to pursue these careers, and that is invaluable to us as a society. We're coasting on the achievements of those who were inspired during that decade of exploration.


Jun 4 2012 1:14AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
you honestly think that it would be a good idea to spend 5% of our national budget on NASA? because according to the past, that is about how much you will need to spend now.


so where is that money coming from? without completely fucking over some segment our society?


Click for larger image

so you want to cut defense spending by 20%, and devastate our military and its ability to protect not only our economic investments, but those of our allies. where is the money going to come from?


do you realize all the problems russia has and is facing because they had a miltary similar to ours, and then completely slashed funding?


Jun 4 2012 2:06AM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
Do not put words in my mouth.
Jun 4 2012 2:12AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
so whats your plan?

you have great, idealistic plans to save the world, but they are not practical at all.


the real world sucks. get used to it, you are gonna be in it for a while.
Jun 4 2012 2:41AM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
You have your opinions, and I have mine. I think it's obvious we're going nowhere.

Call it a gentleman's draw for now?

If you wanna PM me and duke it out there, bring it.

Click for larger image
Jun 4 2012 2:47AM
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pbandj
Posts: 5610 - Karma: 28
lol at thinking Russia's economic and social issues are due to a collapse in their military... that's honestly one of the most retarded things i've ever read.
Jun 4 2012 2:47AM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
I think we should fix all the shit going in now before we start throwing money at NASA
Jun 4 2012 2:54AM
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Tikayt
Posts: 1031 - Karma: 1,543
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5G01bB6a8VA/TmZpIwn-QCI/AAAAAAAACXo/JHOKea0Vujs/s1600/discretionary_spending_fy2011.png

That is where you government fails badly, 58% of US's budget goes into military spending and honestly, America's outdoor policy isn't working at all (not talking about economic policy but military).
"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"


Jun 4 2012 3:04AM
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Lolocaust.
Posts: 1716 - Karma: 512
Close minded people like you are whats wrong with us as a whole. Taxes. 1/10 of a penny from every taxpayers dollar. That is fucking nothing. LOL "Military Superiority" compared to North Korea and Iran we are the larest and most powerful. Stop being close minded, wake up. We stopped dreaming.
Jun 4 2012 3:11AM
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pow_pow~
Posts: 1429 - Karma: 1,804
hahah, allies deal with their problems?

and you wont have superiority for much longer
Jun 4 2012 8:28AM
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1337
Posts: 31054 - Karma: 29,232
lol at the guy saying 20% out of the defense department budget. The percentages at a high point were less than 5% of the nations budget when we put a man on the moon. If they get a half percent now, taking 4.5% MAX and giving it to them from defense isn't going to end the world.
Jun 4 2012 9:00AM
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CheddarJack
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 7,380
I'm watching Apollo 13 in physics right now. Just thought I'd share
Jun 4 2012 9:11AM
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Flying~Squirrel
Posts: 6494 - Karma: 192
cut the nuclear weapons program? annual spending on nuclear weapon development: 50 billion dollars. annual budget for nasa: 14 billion dollars. why are we spending so much money on the one weapon we absolutely never, ever want to use, plan to use, or have anyone else use? its pathetic; were scared of ourselves, were scared of other humans, and were too immature to solve it peacefully. so at the expense of becoming a more intelligent species focused on invention and discovery, we are building blockades and trying to bulk up. its a relapse of evolution. the one thing that makes humans HUMAN is our thirst for knowledge, but thats been smothered by the fear of our brothers and sister.
Jun 4 2012 9:43AM
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Flying~Squirrel
Posts: 6494 - Karma: 192
think about it like this: weve used he same telescope for 22 years, the same shuttles for 35 years, and havent even made an effort to send a man past earths orbit in 45 years. so besides one new under powered telescope and handful of satellites, NASA has been unable to do anything in decades. im going to go out on a limb and guess that the military has been able to afford developing a couple new weapons since the 1980s. hell, we cant even go 6 months without demanding a new iphone, but no one gives a damn about nasa. its been covered in dust and put on a shelf. 14 billion dollars.... think about how tiny that is.
Jun 4 2012 9:52AM
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Poems
Posts: 1041 - Karma: 3
Jesus you are dumb. If we become the most accustomed to space and make lots of technological advanced, we won't have to worry as much about military. If people fuck with us we can threaten with long range ballistic missiles
Jun 4 2012 9:56AM
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Mr.LemonPie
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 1,625
Take 5% from each of medicaid, social security, defense department, and discretionary, and you have about 5% of the total budget for nasa.
Jun 4 2012 10:00AM
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Flying~Squirrel
Posts: 6494 - Karma: 192
5% of just medicare would triple nasas budget
Jun 4 2012 10:02AM
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navierSTOKED
Posts: 858 - Karma: 33
Keep your military 'superiority'. I've
Jun 4 2012 10:02AM
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Flying~Squirrel
Posts: 6494 - Karma: 192
actually it would double it. i got my stat wrong and the current budget for NASA is ~18 billion.
Jun 4 2012 10:03AM
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navierSTOKED
Posts: 858 - Karma: 33
got a poster of a Saturn v on my wall and it says USA on it. 15-20 years from now it might say DEU.. Or even worse..CHI
Jun 4 2012 10:04AM
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BravoWhiskey5280
Posts: 4020 - Karma: 520
It is sad, but NASA too needs to get their spending priorities straight because they are spending money in the wrong place like in the exploration of Mars. The Planetary Science budget allocates the majority of its fund to Mars exploration which is something they have done for the past couple of decades. NASA needs to forget about Mars when it comes to planetary science an set their sights on the outer planets of the solar system. NASA's number one objective when it comes to solar system exploration is the search for extra-terrestrial life, if you don't believe me then go look at their four main goals with mars and how all four goals tie into the search for extraterrestrial life. Mars is a planetary wasteland compared to other celestial bodies in our solar system yet NASA is continually spending the majority of their planetary science budget on the exploration of Mars. We need to start sending more missions to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn because these bodies have so much more of a chance in holding potential extra-terrestrial life, yet we have only sent three missions to these bodies (one of which, Juno, is on its way to Jupiter as we speak) and the science we have got from them is mind blowing. So until NASA gets their priorities straight, I fully support the budget cuts. If they decide to get their priorities straight then I think that they should get a bigger budget.
Jun 4 2012 10:13AM
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Flying~Squirrel
Posts: 6494 - Karma: 192
if we are to travel a long distance to another planet, dont you think its a good idea to start with something small and close to home? going to another planet, or the moon of another planet, is wildly complicated. the farther away from earth you go, the more difficult navigation gets, the longer the comms. delay gets, and the more time there is for something to go wrong and get fixed. taking baby steps is key and mars is just that.
Jun 4 2012 10:20AM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
NASA needs a clearly defined mission statement that gets attention. The biggest problem I see them having is simply a lack of direction.

If you want nasa to succeed, the first thing they need is a goal like they had in the 60s. Then they need an army of PR people. NASA gets into space on publicity. Back in the 60s and 70s they were terrible at that. The only thing that makes people pay attention to nasa and spaceflight is a crash or emergency because we've become too good at it that it's become routine. That needs to change, but it's difficult because the people can't see what goes on 10 minutes after they launch.


The biggest problem of course remains the budget, and this is where things get complex. Budgets are usually based on past endeavors, an estimation of how much something should cost. We don't have this experience with spaceflight. It costs what it costs...we have no idea what that number is.


I love NASA and spaceflight, I think the moon landings are the greatest achievement in human history...but I just don't see where they can get the money. They need a massive shakedown and overhaul.
Jun 4 2012 11:11AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10627 - Karma: 7,423
i just want to get back to the moon...
Jun 4 2012 11:31AM
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BravoWhiskey5280
Posts: 4020 - Karma: 520
The fact of the matter though is that NASA has sent 32 missions to Mars! We pretty much know almost EVERYTHING there is to now about Mars which is that it is a geologically dead planet with almost no atmosphere. Thats pretty much it. I can almost guarantee that there is no life on Mars. They may have been small biological organisms on it in the past, put everything on that planet is dead now. The moons of Saturn and Jupiter though present a real possibility of actually supporting potential extra-terrestrial life right now though! We know this because of the geological composition of these moons have elements such as oxygen, methane (biological waste product), nitrogen and so on. Saturn's moon Titan is so phenomenal because it is the only moon in our solar system that has an actual, thick atmosphere and is though to be very similar to what Earth was like billions of years ago at or before the beginning of life here on Earth. If we went there then we could learn an insane amount of information about not only our solar system, but ourselves as well.

You do make a good point that it is more costly to go there, the space craft Cassini currently orbiting Saturn is the most expensive space craft in history, but at the same time it has sent back an extraordinary amount of information regarding or solar system that we had not known about before the mission. My personal belief is that NASA should be COMPLETELY done with investing in Mars because of the insane amounts of information we already know about the planet. Honestly, how much more is there to know about the planet? I want NASA to invest the majority of their money into what is the unknown because the unknown is the ultimate when it comes to exploration, regardless of wether it be here on Earth, in our Solar System, in our galaxy, or beyond.
Jun 4 2012 11:37AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
so in this thread, people dont understand

1- what MAD is
2- how dangerous space travel is eg. 7.5% fatality rate...
3- how expensive space travel is
4- how much the rest of the world has caught up to the US in weapons technology
5- how bad the economy(US and especially World) is
6- how powerful special intersts are
7- how to do simple math
8- any world history from 10-30 years ago
9- how far away from legit space travel we actually are
10- how a governmental budget works
11- how important our allies are to us economically, and strategically


We need to start an international space agency, and pool resources to get the most out of the program. anything else, will not bring the results that you and i desire. But, this wont happen for another 50-100 years.



Jun 5 2012 2:09AM
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navierSTOKED
Posts: 858 - Karma: 33
I'm pretty sure all those things, and more applied in the 50's/60's.. You're right.  It doesn't make much sense to fund a massive space program right now, but it never will.  Every now and then you just have to pull the trigger and suck it up.  as some guy once said, "we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."
Jun 5 2012 2:20AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
uh, the reason the space program was started, and continued was for military supremecy. only in its later stages did it actually start being used for scientific exploration...which we then saw as fairly unproductive, inefficient, and cut funding.


and FWIW JFK was an awful president. seriously, look up what he did, and how many things he fucked up...and fucked.

Jun 5 2012 2:34AM
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pbandj
Posts: 5610 - Karma: 28
1- Mutually assured destruction... basically russia launches nukes, we respond by launching nukes. world ends
2- I highly doubt there is a single astronaut who doesn't understand the risks and dangers of space travel and still proceeds with doing so... The rewards outweigh the risks so to speak.
3- 450 million dollars per shuttle launch... or...0.0001% of our yearly federal budget... the cost of three f-22's or the salary of 8,333 army soldiers.
4- Ehhhh.... with the exception of a few countries (mostly U.S. allies as it were) most countries aren't even close to the weapons technology that the u.s. possesses. Not a single one is even close to the might of the u.s. military
5- The government still is taking in more money in taxes than it was 10 years ago... when we still had a space program
6- Not really sure what you're referring to.
7- 4 + 4 = potato
8- You mean the collapse of the soviet union?
9- How are we supposed to get there without investing in our current means of space travel and developing it from there.... would we have massive air transit if the wright brothers didn't develop their flyer at a great personal cost years ago? Or if the government didn't spend gobs of money reining jet propulsion?
10- Basically a bunch of idiots yell at each other until they come to some agreement
11- again I don't quite understand what the point of this is... but i didn't read the entire thread either
Jun 5 2012 3:42AM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
obama cut NASA's budget. you mad, liberals?
Jun 5 2012 9:43AM
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Billups
Posts: 3960 - Karma: 329
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/12/06/hey-brother-can-you-spare-a-hubble-dod-sure-have-two/258061/

This makes me kind of sad.
Jun 5 2012 9:44AM
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Flying~Squirrel
Posts: 6494 - Karma: 192
so just because something isnt easy, we shouldnt even try it.



k.
Jun 5 2012 9:47AM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
maybe nasa could bring everyone on earth together with the goal of exploring space, through that satisfaction of working together, instead of against each other would there need to be war ?
Jun 5 2012 10:36AM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24725 - Karma: 29,944
needs more Morgan Freeman.


But really. It's true. Instead of spending money towards the Defense (err.. offense) department, we could take a solid chunk out of that, and throw it at NASA - the technological advances in energy that would come from it is worth it alone.
Jun 5 2012 10:40AM
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doitbig
Posts: 4818 - Karma: 315

The anwser lies.....

.........THROUGH THE WORMHOLE

Jun 5 2012 11:15AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
1- MAD is the only reason life still populates the earth
2- astronauts dont mind the danger, but the public sure doesnt like it when they die...and public sentiment is largely responsible for funding.
3- the shuttles were reusable, and only travel a very short ways. you forgot to take into account how much money was spent getting to the point of building the shuttles.
4- when a country develops nukes, they have become a serious threat to us and the rest of the world. simple as that. And once china gets there Navy up to par, they will be on our, and Russias level for sure.
5- so you are a rich kid from the suburbs who hasnt really felt the brunt of the worldwide economic collapse of the past 4 years?
6- dont remember what was said
7- wrong. 4+4= Potahto
8- what did shuttle missions accomplish in the past 30 years?
9- It will take waaaaaaaaaaaaay more resources than just the USA's to make space travel a reality.
10- fucking nailed it. good luck convincing them.
11- being the alpha country in the world for the past 60 years has made a lot of friends and enemies...and even more countries that tolerate us because we have the military power to influence political, and foreign policy everywhere on the globe. if we stop helping our allies militarily they will hate us, and the countries that already hate us, will continue to hate us.
Jun 5 2012 6:08PM
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pbandj
Posts: 5610 - Karma: 28
these are the only 2 post i don't necessarily agree with.

in regard to "rogue" states developing nuclear weapons

Most of these countries are too fucking broke to even develop ICBM's I mean look at North Korea, recently attempted a missile launch only to have it fail about 300 miles from the launch pad.... seriously not too concerned about them at this point.... china developing as a sea power... meh... china is fucking themselves in their own ass at the moment and just haven't felt the repercussions yet.... in 50 years, everyone will be pushing hand carts around china again, and worrying about the Mongolians.


and no i'm not some rich kid from the suburbs.... while my parents are well off, i wouldn't consider them "rich". they also taught me how to regulate my money and invest intelligently. So maybe they are "rich" in a sense of knowledge, but not monetarily. And no, I haven't felt the brunt of the economic collapse of the last four years, not due to my parents bank account but rather my own ambition.
Jun 5 2012 7:00PM
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