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Ski's mounted wrong

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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
So a big retailer and service company in the UK (Snow & Rock) were mounting some rossi FKS bindings I bought from them onto my brand new 181 Rossi S4s

They fucked it up, by very obviously marking them up so the bindings would be mounted backwards, mounting one ski, realising it was wrong, removing the binding, turning the ski around, filling the holes with Ptex and remounting the right way around
I'm furious. The binding isnt even sitting flat or flush on the ski, the heel piece frankly looks treacherous.
I'm going skiing on friday, what can I do

Obviously tomorrow I'm going in there first thing in the morning to get this fuck-up fixed. They have no S4's in stock, I doubt they even have any Scratch in 181. I wounldnt accept them if they did, I bought S4, I want S4. What do I say?


>>> Cliffs - Snow & Rock ruined a brand new ski by mounting backwards, filling in the holes with ptex and mounting the right way again. they didn't tell me when I picked up the skis
Mar 25 2012 4:23PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
1. Post pictures...they might actually be fine to ride (sometimes bindings aren't always exactly flush with the ski...there is a margine of topsheet error that can make it seem like they're not flush).

2. How do you know they mounted them backwards if they didn't tell you...can you actually see the holes? If so, why didn't you say something while you were there with them?

3. 1 mis-mount isn't going to hurt those skis (trust me...I know a kid who slays park HARD on his 11/12 Scratches...one of the skis was mis-mounted twice, he skied them hard, broke everything there is to break on the ski, edges, sidewall, coreshot...but they didn't snap)

4. It's not ptex...it's a plug...a common piece put into a ski to plug a hole after a remount

5. What the hell is the difference between the S4s and the Scratches other than the graphic and name...NOTHING...if they offer you Scratches (which I personally don't think they owe you) you take them and be grateful.
Mar 25 2012 4:48PM
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holytoast
Posts: 683 - Karma: 301
Tell them to learn how to mount some fucking bindings and then blow up the store.
Mar 25 2012 5:00PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
Wow talk about a fuckup! Are S4s even symmetrical? You deserve new skis w/o a doubt! Or a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat in store credit!
Mar 25 2012 5:36PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Boom.
Mar 25 2012 5:46PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
Are you fucking high? I'm not an idiot, and you're being a dick. These people are supposed to be fully qualified to mount a binding SAFELY and correctly.

If they mounted it wrong, they have damaged my property as far as I'm concerned. They fact they didn't tell me is sketchy as hell.
I didn't notice it in store because I was excited to get my new babies home - who else wouldn't be? at the end of the day I shouldn't have to scrutinise their work because they're paid professionals.
I know they did it backwards because of the hole patterns

Thanks for your response, but I think you've missed the point of professionalism and safety here.

Pics later
Mar 25 2012 6:24PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
They're not at all symmetrical! I think I'm owed new skis too, thanks. However, fat store credit would have to mean replacement skis because I don't want to spend another penny there to be honest
Mar 25 2012 6:26PM
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holytoast
Posts: 683 - Karma: 301
your going to have to yell at them. Seriously if people have a job to mount bindings they shouldnt fuck it up. You need your money back.
Mar 25 2012 6:31PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
I never said you're an idiot...and I wasn't meaning to be a dick...but people trying to get a free pair of skis out of a shop because they "messed up my mount" is kind of a pet peeve of mine...it's kind of trying to take advantage of the system.

I understand you're upset, but they did fix the problem...and unless it's still an absurd mount (I don't know, cause I can't see them) they fixed it safely.

Also, when you drop of a pair of skis to be mounted you sign a piece of paper...you should read that paper...it releases the shop and it's employees (i.e. the shop tech) of any injury done to you and any damage done to your equipment...it's a standard release form (something like this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/26076529/Salomon-Ski-Bindings-Regulation scroll down to "page23") So you signed away your right to complain about this when you dropped them off.

Yes, they should have told you about it...but they don't necessarily HAVE to...so going in there yelling and bitching isn't going to get you anywhere cause they did everything properly on their end (unless...like I said before...it is still a messed up mount).
Mar 25 2012 7:01PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
you completely missed my point here, I'm not 'trying to take advantage of the system', I'm not out there to get a free pair of ski's - I have brand new skis. They were beautiful and I sought after them for ages. Trust me, my attitude towards money is pretty 'whatever' - I've never tried to take the system for anything. I feel the same way I would if someone smashed the windows on my van or stole my wallet, I'm disappointed, I dont want to take them for a ride.
In my opinion, they should try their damned hardest to find me some more rossi 181 S4 and get them done for me properly. And personally, I dont think thats taking them for a ride, its what they owe me.
your previous point about them being tough as old boots is exactly why I bought them, so I understand why you made it.  But really, I havent used them yet. If I buy brand new I want to ski brand new - not re-drilled.
the fact they were mounted backwards is ridiculous! who does that?! measure twice, cut once. I'm an engineer so I live by that. And for goodness sake, if you make a cock up like that you should come clean straight up, this situation is ten times worse because I found out on my own

here are pics, the gape off the ski is about 3mm. So the mounting screws aren't fully threaded and there will be a considerable moment created from that

Click for larger image
Click for larger image
Click for larger image
Click for larger image
Mar 25 2012 7:27PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
I'm not saying don't take them back...what I'm saying, don't take them back and demand new skis, cause honestly, those are perfectly good skis. The back of the pastic on the heelpiece coming up does nothing to the binding, that piece is just there so the metal bar doesn't slam into your topsheet.

The only thing I feel they did wrong was not tell you about it (and honestly, that's probably because the tech who mounted it wasn't the person you talked to). Should you get some sort of compensation for that...maybe...but I really feel demanding new skis is pretty lame.
Mar 25 2012 7:44PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
Basically, I'm butthurt and tired and feeling like you do when you have an awesome dream about buying something new and exciting and then you wake up and its not there, or like when you find a girl with epic tits but when you take the bra off they flop out like an octopus over the side of a boat but you feel like you need to commit anyway and then you creep out the door when they're asleep feeling dirty and ashamed

Yes mainly they should have told me, but I really need the peace of mind that the bindings aren't going to fail on me. I have two concerns relating to all this: firstly that the ski's will take on water more quickly than usual as they are over-drilled and secondly that water could freeze under the binding and force it out the ski over time. Those are legit fears, level with me. I just want a time machine
Mar 25 2012 7:51PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868

I dunno man... while I can see where you're coming from, I kinda side with the OP here.

Whether or not the extra holes make a big difference, they do make some difference, and that's not something the OP could reasonably have expected when dropping his skis off for a professional mount. It's different when someone gets their skis remounted, you know you're going to come out with some extra holes... but if you'd gone in to get them mounted and they had said sure, but you'll have an extra set of filled holes up the front, you would tell them to get lost.

I once took a pair of skis in to get mounted and by some fluke they had another pair of skis the same as mine but a different length in there at the same time, and our bindings got mixed up and I ended up with some Marker bindings instead of the Looks I expected... the shop then offered:

-Take them as they are, and we'll refund you the difference between the Look and the Marker

-We'll give you a new pair of skis, with the Looks

-We'll remount with the Looks and give you a $100 refund on them, and not charge you for the mount.

I took the last option... I thought the shop handled it very well and went away happy. Personally I think OPs shop should be offering him the second 2 options or similar as well.

Mar 25 2012 7:59PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
Haha, I hear ya...and I've been where you are (which is why I'm trying to be a bit level headed). Take them in next time you get a chance and simply talk with the guys about, be cool, go in with zero expectations, cause honestly you might not get anything, but you might get a couple offers your way too. I know the disappointment, but really, I don't think they're bad (the hole fillings look very well done, I wouldn't worry about water).

Basically, I wanted to try and get you more level headed before storming in there and flipping out on some shop employee...cause (trust me, I know from experience) that rarely works. Now you have all the facts about what you're dealing with, and you can go in there calmly and without expectations. That's why I kept coming back to this thread.
Mar 25 2012 8:11PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,498
To the op; I see why your annoyed, but Bw is correct. That ski is absolutly fine to ski. Its a mistake mistakes happen. Once when I was starting out, I forgot to put a riser on a binding and drilled the screws through the base. It sucks but it happens, luckily for you it wont effect the ski at all. Most of my skis have at least 1 set of holes filled. Finding the best mount point isnt something you get right first time, so I often move my bindings. I have found no problems.

Your best bet is go back in and explain you have relised the ski was mounted backwards and see if they will do anything for you. If you paid for the mount they should refund that, but really they dont have to do any more then that, but hopefully they will.

Next time use ellis brigham not s&n
Mar 25 2012 8:56PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
Playing devils advocate here... imagine if you wanted to move your mount-point by a couple of cm but you found that the holes were too close to the filled in holes from where they mounted the binding backwards... you would be absolutely spewing.
Mar 25 2012 9:08PM
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radish
Posts: 405 - Karma: 351
Mounting fuck ups = new skis. My buddy had a bad mount from a shop and they got him new skis right away. They did not even look that bad.
Mar 25 2012 9:17PM
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Kickerzzz
Posts: 234 - Karma: 62
They fucked up. Period. They owe you.
Mar 26 2012 1:10AM
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scratchskier321
Posts: 2571 - Karma: 1,313
wow they fucked up
Mar 26 2012 1:22AM
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Skiingsnow
Posts: 1567 - Karma: 797
i dont get the arguement against,  they damaged his goods, they give him new goods, what would happen if a store assistant scratched your lens swapping em for you? they would replace it
very similar thing happened to a friend of mine, store re mounted one heel peice without  consulting him and he got new skis for it
Mar 26 2012 1:26AM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
well, yeah there's a S&R here in exeter so I kind of had to take them there, going skiing end of this week so needed it done locally. nearest EB is bristol!

The fact they didn't mention it, like I said before, makes this so much worse - as if they were trying to hide it. A reputable shop shouldn't do that. And in my eyes, that large deflection off the ski is not ok
Mar 26 2012 4:30AM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
You watch your mouth when your talking to the king of gear talk!
Mar 26 2012 10:23AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,498
In genral in the UK your best to try to stick to the larger dome shops or the shops in london. The larger shops are where the best staff work, as they make the most money. Your best bets are, EB Milton keynes, Castleford, Tamworth or Breahead. Or the Covent garden shop is good too. Make it a trip, go to the shop then go for a shred.
Mar 26 2012 12:50PM
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.nasty
Posts: 10581 - Karma: 11,150
yeah with that piece propped up by the plug it could easily keep bending until it wears out and snaps. it wouldn't be a life threatening break but they still owe you new skis.
Mar 26 2012 12:57PM
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Rhys.Peice
Posts: 485 - Karma: 40
a shop mounted my skis wrong so i took them back and they exchanged them with new ones right away
Mar 26 2012 1:21PM
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VD.
Posts: 4054 - Karma: 4,565
(1000th post right here) Thats sucks bro, yeh just take them back and ask for a either a new pair of s4s and if they can't provide that a full refund. The only UK shops I would buy from are freezeproshop and SkiBartlett.
Mar 26 2012 2:31PM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,317
if this is a big box retailer you are probly going to have to yell and scream and have six managers come by and say, oh its no big deal, when they dont even ski. If you are young take a parent. Otherwise take a friend and dress nicely. Positive perception and strength in numbers
Mar 26 2012 3:16PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
ok so the problem is now resolved - thanks for your responses especially to those who tried to level me out, its been pretty stressful so was useful to take a step back and not be hot-headed.

Feedback
I went in to S&R this morning and explained my dismay, emphasising that I wasn't impressed that they didn't tell me right away, phrasing it as "In future, from my point of view, I think the customer would prefer to be told immediately rather than find out on their own".  There was no yelling, I just said I wanted it fixed and that I was upset as they are such a rare ski to find in Europe in 181 at the moment

Response
At this point the technician and I talked through the options of getting the mount correct, as I need the skis for the end of the week. We planned that he could remove the offending binding, flatten the plugs and re-mount in the same holes using epoxy. Obviously he apologised for the lack of communication and reassured me that the fix would be safe and sturdy.  He did this repair while I waited.

Compensation
As I waited for the mount to be fixed up an employee and I talked it out and I just highlighted their communication lapse (both with me and between the technician and sales from whom I collected the skis).  She asked me if I needed anything (anything at all, wink wink. joke) but I replied I had the gear I needed but was she offering a discount/store credit. She offered to give me a refund for the bindings and I accepted.

Obviously the ski isn't perfect like I (and anyone) would want, but they have done their best to reduce the sting and that's what I value.

Hopefully this can serve as a case study for anyone else finding themself in the same situation who cares to use the search bar!
Thanks again
Mar 26 2012 4:03PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,498
Thats awsome man, I m glad you got somthing back.

You went about it just the right way, calmly talking to them, and as you were cool, they were cool.
Mar 26 2012 6:21PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
I hope the tech didnt just toss epoxy in the old holes after flattening the plugs. Those FKSs which are already known for ripping out due the the narrow mounting pattern, are going to be much more apt to rip out. If you are using the same holes, heelicoils would have been the best path for remounting in the same holes.
Mar 26 2012 6:36PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
Ummmm, f*ck that's exactly what he did.

I guess the plan now is ski them hard next week and see what happens, if they rip out should I just fix them myself with heelicoils or go back in?
Things never used to be this hard to get right, I swear
Mar 26 2012 6:48PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
As long as they weren't animals then the threads in the core should still be mint. Also FKS mounting pattern isn't really that narrow, not sure where that idea came from...
Mar 26 2012 6:50PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
Except for the fact that I highly doubt the threads lined up perfectly when they were going in, taking away valuable grib and bite that the screws need to hold on. A normal rec ski or a groomer cruiser, sure do it that way. When you are talking a park/pipe/pow ski, why risk it? Helicoils is something you would have the shop put in unless you have a a bunch of them laying around.

And I know in the shop that I worked in for 6 years, FKSs were hands down the bindings we saw with rip outs. Saw this on Park skis, Pow skis and on race skis. Its the ski material more than anything, but they do have a narrower heel pattern than say a jester or STH 16.
Mar 26 2012 6:56PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868

True, I suppose it depends if they seated the thread properly first... I was always taught the method mechanics use, where you turn the screw anticlockwise until it 'drops' into the top of the thread so you never crossthread. If they crossthreaded it then yeah, there's going to be a pretty good chance of them ripping out.

And I think FKS ripping out is more to do with the type of people who ride them than the bindings themselves, although thats just my take on it.

Mar 26 2012 7:01PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
if my DINs are low enough will that help? I'll just leave them on 8 or 9, suuuurely the standard hole pattern has been designed to survive the force of an ejection at 14
Mar 26 2012 7:04PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
I feel ya, when we mounted, we did the same thing with the counterclockwise half turn. I only brought that up because well if they fucked up the mount this bad the first two/three times, I wouldnt be surprised at all it they whored out the original holes.
Mar 26 2012 7:05PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,498
you will be fine. I had 1 set of bindings for 3 pairs of skis last season, so I was constantly taking the bindings off and putting them back in the same holes. Im still riding 2 pairs of those skis this season and have had no problems at all. As long as the tech did not really mess up the job you will be fine.
Mar 26 2012 7:14PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868

You make a very, very good point...

More power to you OP! As long as you came out happy and the skis hold up then all's well that ends well.

Mar 26 2012 7:52PM
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.nasty
Posts: 10581 - Karma: 11,150
well sure it's going to rip out because of the hole pattern but the screws being screwed into a brand new core twice isn't going to make much difference, at least not enough of one to be making him worry about it. If they're gonna rip out, they're gonna rip out...
Mar 26 2012 9:11PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
I can't be bothered drawing a diagram but if you think about what happens if you start the thread at a different point on the hole... basically you end up with a whole lot less thickness holding the screw in, it's like screwing into plywood with every second layer removed.
Mar 26 2012 9:48PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
THIS!
Mar 26 2012 10:33PM
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Mr_Bump
Posts: 689 - Karma: 427
....... ok thanks everyone I think that'll do now please
Mar 26 2012 10:44PM
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