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Beacon, probe, shovel, avalung....airbag?

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Mstchief
Posts: 751 - Karma: 524
This most recent avalanche in Steven Pass got me thinking. Elyse Saugstad the fourth skier caught in the slide, survived. At least according to her because of the air bag she deployed. Now as I recall there has been at least one other survival this year because of an airbag. It seems that the airbag is going to become part of the standard back country must have equipment. The problem? 650 minimum for one of these packs. With that plus all the other equipment you need for back country you are looking at least 2 Gs worth of stuff.

I think the question that we need to start asking "is it worth it". As both a pass holder (Brighton, what!) and a backcountry skier, it is a constant battle as to which one I would rather do on a powder day. But with the price of safety in the backcountry becoming increasingly expensive it is harder to justify skinning it up.

So my NS friends what do you think?

P.S. Keep in mind after 4 wonderful ski filled years of college at Westminster and 3 post college ski bumming years after I have finally been forced into the "real world" and the consequences that come with it...... real job and weekend warrior. I know it sucks but for the 12 people on this site that can relate lets hear it.
Feb 20 2012 1:12AM
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Fucktown
Posts: 474 - Karma: 22
The price for the same level of safety is the same or less than it has been in the past... You just have options to provide yourself with a greater level of safety when it comes to gear choices now. The most important tool out there is still your head... all of the gadgets in the world don't help when 10 tons of chunder balls are pulverizing your body into pudding
Feb 20 2012 1:14AM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100
I'm thinking about getting a real job too. smh. I think my life is worth the 650 dollar price tag.
Feb 20 2012 1:16AM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100
Good thread by the way. I recently spoke with a rep from the ABS pack company. He was telling me their survival rate is 98% in avalanches. It just seems kinda stupid not to have one.
Feb 20 2012 1:17AM
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steezenskis
Posts: 1044 - Karma: 31
would you pay 650 to not die?
Feb 20 2012 1:18AM
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Capernicus
Posts: 382 - Karma: 218
Great topic. My question with the airbag is what if you are unable to deploy it? Like how quickly can you inflate it?

The best safety device will always be good decision making.
Feb 20 2012 1:31AM
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PON3
Posts: 3817 - Karma: 783
I think $650 is a decent price for a life if you ask me.
Feb 20 2012 1:36AM
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VD.
Posts: 4054 - Karma: 4,565
How much is your life worth is the question youve got to ask yourself
Feb 20 2012 1:36AM
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kstanz
Posts: 3058 - Karma: 477
I wouldn't say 98%. Although I don't know a lot about them, I have defiantly heard of many people having them and still dieing, every avalanche is different and they could easily get shredded up in certain situations. I still think they would help, just that he was bs'ing you a bit... obviously cause hes a rep too... but having the essential gear and knowing how to use it first would help a lot more.
Feb 20 2012 1:40AM
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ChasingFlakes
Posts: 822 - Karma: 1,544
Its only getting more expensive because theres more offered. In the good ole day you had a probe shovel and an avy cord ( a length of rope you let drag behind you in hopes it was at the top and you could be found). Yes its expensive, not you don't need all the gear. its a choice an easy one in my mind but still its a choice. its all about the risk and how much of it are you willing to your self in? Some stick with beacon shovel probe others and making air bag mods with avalungs.
Feb 20 2012 1:41AM
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Che~
Posts: 2108 - Karma: 296
An airbag is never going to replace common sense and smart choices. Take classes, know how to use your gear and do stability tests, and a airbag will hopefully never be needed. Personally, I think that an airbag gives people a false sense of security. Look at the guy who died in Telluride last week. Deployed his ABS, but it got shredded in the trees and he died. They dont always save you
Feb 20 2012 1:49AM
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currentwestman
Posts: 3292 - Karma: 330
i still think knowledge and experience trump everything. if youre smart and maybe a little conservative, triggering something fatal should very rarely happen. like theres always a chance but its slim.

if you wanna buy an airbag go for it. maybe youre high risk...maybe youre a pussy idk. but the idea is to not get buried to begin with. i wouldnt put airbags in the same category as beacon/probe/shovel though
Feb 20 2012 1:51AM
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skier_boy26
Posts: 11295 - Karma: 502
hopefully you have the quick reaction to pull the trigger if shit does pop. I could imagine a really powerful avalanche, one that more or less blindsides with tremendous force, could render the skier unable to pull that trigger. But it is quick. Once that disk in punched, that sucker fills up in like 2-3 seconds.


Backcountry skiing doesn't have any requisites or dues, like joining a club or something of the like. Your investment in the equipment can be a reflection on the value you place on your safety, but ultimately none of it is required.

Is it brutal that, when all said and done, you could be looking at over $2000 in safety gear alone, and still have a whole ski setup suitable for backcountry to invest in, in addition to course fees and other stuff so you may make better decisions? Yes, that is a steep price. In the end, I think most (hopefully all) would agree that the money is worth the potential of saving your life, or the lives of others, in the event you need it. I know you are more or less wondering if backcountry skiing is worth it, due to the cost and the risk associated with it, and not whether or not an airbag pack itself is worth its price.


Having skied the backcountry with the same guys that perished today, I know the joy that you can get out there, and why they were out there in the first place. Tragedies, such as the one today in Washington, are tough to bear, but in the end the cost is worth it. I'll be getting an RAS pack here soon. I hope I never actually have to use it, but if I do, I sincerely hope that I, and the others I am with, can ski another day and revel in the backcountry's majesty.
Feb 20 2012 1:55AM
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no_steeze
Posts: 23992 - Karma: 4,274
airbags bring you to the surface of an avalanche. they don't protect you from trees, rocks, and other terrain traps. is it safer to have an airbag? sure, you won't be buried as long and there's less of a chance of being crushed by the weight of the debris, more likely to just break some bones or have more minor injuries if you're in a wet slab, but do you have a 98% chance of surviving an avalanche? absolutely not. the skier in telluride who was recently killed had an ABS pack that was shredded by rocks. it only does so much

my concern with the airbags, as stated above, is that it'll cause people to be more confident in avalanche terrain. overconfidence is one of the leading heuristic traps.

to OP, going in the backcountry comes with its prices and compromises. i think money should be the least worrisome of those, as big of a bitch as it is. i'm gonna get an airbag pack in the next few years. i think it's well worth it to have one, i just want to make sure whichever one i get is airplane friendly
Feb 20 2012 2:02AM
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jca
Posts: 4172 - Karma: 6,310
I just hope that this influx of airbags doesn't give people a false sense of security. As said above, an airbag isn't going to stop your body from being wrapped around a tree or cartwheeling off a cliff (im not sure of exact stats, but a high percentage of avalanche deaths are caused by trauma, not suffocation).

I think these airbags are awesome and will save many lives as they become more commonplace (i will likely buy one in the future) but the best safety precaution has been and always will be your brain. Get educated, get experience, use both in conjunction with common sense and gut instincts leaning on the side of caution and you will hopefully only need to use your safety gear (that you know how to use efficiently and effectively) when freak accidents happen.

-jeff's two cents.
Feb 20 2012 2:19AM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100
All I am saying is it is worth the price tag. You can know all there is to know about avalanches, but shit still happens and when it does I would like to have a pack with an airbag.
Feb 20 2012 2:24AM
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Che~
Posts: 2108 - Karma: 296
Theoretically yes. But like Gator said, its not really going to protect you from rocks, cliffs, or trees. 1/4 of all avalanche victims die from trauma
Feb 20 2012 2:29AM
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Che~
Posts: 2108 - Karma: 296
Theoretically yes. But like Gator said, its not really going to protect you from rocks, cliffs, or trees. 1/4 of all avalanche victims die from trauma
Feb 20 2012 2:29AM
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ESB
Posts: 9274 - Karma: 10,653
Amen.
Feb 20 2012 2:40AM
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3ski6guy0
Posts: 9201 - Karma: 135
Its a tough call. I own a BCA Float 36 and it definitely gives you a sense of false confidence. Recently, there was an avy in Telluride where a guy with an airbag (snowpulse I think based on the photos) and an avalung was killed. His shit was ripped apart proving that in a big enough avy even an airbag wont help you at all. Beacon probe shovel are staples and if you go into the BC without them you are a straight up idiot. The only reason I got one was because my employee deal at a shop was way worth it and I only ski backcountry now. Still though, after recent events I wouldnt trust an airbag to save your life.
Feb 20 2012 2:43AM
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ShredMasterPlus
Posts: 1159 - Karma: 807

Click for larger image +Click for larger image

colby west had the right idea

Feb 20 2012 2:47AM
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3ski6guy0
Posts: 9201 - Karma: 135
and to people who think that avy training is going to make them invincible they have it wrong. the most important thing that avy classes teach you is to make good decisions. when you look at the reports of most people that die there are clear signs of danger that they bypassed. im not saying im any better than them because we all love to ski what we want to ski...but still..its mostly a mental battle.
Feb 20 2012 2:47AM
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ChasingFlakes
Posts: 822 - Karma: 1,544
lawls.
Feb 20 2012 3:37AM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10451 - Karma: 10,029
A good friend of mine is one of the project engineers for the avi-pack at BCA and has told me that with the next 5-10 years air bag packs will become a standard piece of backcountry equipment just like a shovel, beacon, probe (& partner). I will definitely be skiing with one as soon as I can afford to.
Feb 20 2012 4:00AM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10451 - Karma: 10,029
and yes, knowledge and common sense are the #1 thing to keep you safe in the backcountry.
Feb 20 2012 4:02AM
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Ralf
Posts: 978 - Karma: 81
exactely what i experienced here in europe. was taking to a guy on the chairlift who had an ABS about the changing situations. avalanche risk 4 i was skiing park and he was like: well i have an ABS i'm secure..
Feb 20 2012 6:20AM
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TijmenDal
Posts: 4849 - Karma: 1,296
Why is everyone saying 650$ for your life.

That's not the decision you have to make. It's: Do I want to ski the backcountry if it's so costly?

And prices will be dropping soon. Dakine is also coming out with an airbag and Ortovox is as well. 300€ is what they'll be going for soon I think.
Feb 20 2012 8:50AM
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.RYAN66
Posts: 5381 - Karma: 237
i think this is inevitable.

SO many people are getting into backcountry/slackcountry skiing that i think we will see the prices of everything be dropping. but the hardcore BC enthusiast are going to want an airbag and that is going to bring prices down.

for 300 bucks i think i will definitely have one on my back, 650 is a lot, and i doubt i would buy one at that price, and heres why. i should never be in a position where i need it, if i read the snow correctly and dont ignore the signs, than i should never be caught in an avalanche.


but to answer OPs questions, yes it they are going to become a primary part of the backcountry checklist.
Feb 20 2012 9:24AM
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skiskate
Posts: 787 - Karma: 823
Ill most likely be getting one in the future as the price drops a bit, but really 650 is not that much for something that can be as useful as that. When you compare it to how much everything else costs that is skiing related.

OP, backcountry skiing is not getting anymore expensive. Just technology is advancing and we are finding new safey tools to bring along. It is your call on what you want to buy and use.
Feb 20 2012 10:20AM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
I'll probably be picking  one up next season.  I would this season but the snow has been a joke and I haven't been out of the gates when there has been even a medium risk of avalanches.
Feb 20 2012 12:02PM
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TijmenDal
Posts: 4849 - Karma: 1,296
This is exactly what I'm talking about. To me it almost sounds like some people would ski terrain more dangerous just because they would have an airbag.
An airbag is just an extra safety measure, not something to push your boundaries with.
Feb 21 2012 11:21AM
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