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KilaTsunami
October, 2024

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Sorry to curse, but why THE FUCK did us resorts stop building tabletops.

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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
it happened around the rcr lawsuit so i suspect resorts build standard kicker step down jumps because their afraid of building other than standard textbook jumps.

if you whatch the neophiles familia video youll see how soft and slow the land is but how much air they get at the same time. by the way what resort was that  neophile familia vid filmed at.

what resorts in the us still build big tabletops?

the canyons has for years but recently moved their park. fuck,,,, canyons used to have a 60 foot true table at the bottom of, and then a bueatyful 35 foot true table at the top of their park that they had from 04 to 07.

sorry to rant but if youve ever hit a true table youll understand......soo much better  than stepdowns,
Jan 13 2012 11:53AM
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smeeze
Posts: 879 - Karma: 126
looks hella fun
Jan 13 2012 5:33PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
thanks for the laugh.... if what you said was true, next time your at breck stand on the knuckle  if ur head about 3 feet is above the top of the lip, then you win.
Jan 13 2012 5:36PM
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nohajs
Posts: 388 - Karma: 555

Click for larger image

We tried true tables a few years back. You must have a ton of snow to make the landings long. Then you must have the perfect pitch slope or you get a short takeoff. They are also harder to maintain with a cat. Time = $$$= drive around style jumps.

The best thing to do is just stack the landing as tall as the takeoff. Then the impact is much less.

Click for larger image

Jan 13 2012 6:15PM
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Lord.Quasimoto
Posts: 958 - Karma: 33
^CORRECT. You don't need to make it perfectly flat in between.

step down just seem like the lazy way out for jump builders
Jan 13 2012 6:26PM
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yourthemannowdog
Posts: 4541 - Karma: 313
I do miss table tops, but i'm glad that spines are coming back into the parks. On the east coast spines have been coming back into parks in the past few years.

Tables aren't more dangerous than a step up in my opinion. They are probably safer if you ask me. A table is much more intimidating to look at, so someone who is new to park or just hits the sides of jumps would typically stay away from a table top. As opposed to a step up which looks fairly easy so those who don't have much experience in the parks are more likely to hit it and do something stupid. Look at that video of that guy in Mount Tremblant who completely overshot the jump.

I've seen a lot more people over shoot step ups than tables(when comparing similar sample sizes.)

Just my two cents on that argument
Jan 13 2012 6:39PM
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FerrisBueller
Posts: 8280 - Karma: 5,173
The man who built the jumps at mammoth is the best a making jumps ever, they have awesome jumps and he also constructed snowmass' triple line
Jan 13 2012 7:06PM
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Abu_Hajaar
Posts: 2749 - Karma: 3,907
It costs too much to maintain it with the middle in but the gapers will get injured worse and have a higher chance of sueing when they knuckle a table with no middle. With that said I like tables 100 times better but it is more riskey with a table than a stepdown Sorry for bad spelling/ grammer (on mobile)
Jan 13 2012 8:39PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
i agree completely, true tabels are the best but what your talking about is just as good, as long as the knuckles the same altidude as the takeoff
Jan 13 2012 8:40PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
fucking AGREED. hips are so fun, and a person who wants to barely leave the ground can have fun on the same feature as another guy who takes it deep, theyre such a good feature
Jan 13 2012 9:03PM
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PON3
Posts: 3817 - Karma: 783
there needs to be moar spines! I hit a natural spine at beaver creek off of red tail and its so much fun! I just love hanging there and then dipping your tips down to hit the tranny. Such a good feeling!
Jan 13 2012 9:08PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
air resistance only affects you on stepdowns? thanks for the knowledge professor.
honestly, youre out of your element, and u dont know what you are talking about.
Jan 13 2012 9:30PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
another? good lord you have to be kidding me
Jan 13 2012 9:36PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,720
I prefer bigger tabletops 50 feet to I know I can enjoy my tricks. Step downs kinda hurt...
Jan 13 2012 9:42PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
Holy shit that thing is beautiful.
Jan 13 2012 9:45PM
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Liljj
Posts: 19 - Karma: 13
True Table tops are fun, but a lot of the small mountains make them, and then the landing is lacking. What I really want to see more of is butter pads. I saw a mad nice one in Eyetrip and I would kill to hit it.
Jan 13 2012 10:00PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
sorry to be a dick back but let me spoon feed this to you two so you dont have to use the word " probably" in a physics explanation.

you could design a true table with perfect slope angles where neglecting air resistance (which is the same at a given air pressure anywhere on earth last time i checked) you could let a cannonball roll towards a true table took of at a precise speed (not velocity) so that it took off the lip at speed x, flew through the air, and literally rolled onto the knuckle with the exact same speed x it had when it took off from the lip. The speed and ke on take off and landing are exactly equal in this case.

you could also design a step down jump with perfect slope angles where you could let a cannonball roll towards the kicker at a precise speed so that it rolled off the kicker at speed x, flew through the air, and again gently rolled exactly on the knuckle. Except in the stepdowns case the cannonball lands at a lower height than it took off from so its landing speed will be x + something.  Because the cannonball is at a greater height at its takeoff point than at its landing point, it has lost some of its gravitational potential energy GPE, and you two physics professors must know the law of conservation of energy, which means that the GPE was converted into kinetic energy KE. And because higher KE is proportional to speed, the cannonball will land on the stepdowns landing at a higher speed. Since speed is proportional to KE, and gravitational potential energy, like all potential energy, can be converted into kinetic energy, and because GPH = mass x height in meters x gravity, the bigger the height differential between lip and knuckle on a stepdown, the more GPE will be converted into KE.

“probably” just doesn’t cut it in physics. But thanks for wasting my life explaining 7th grade physics to you and hopefully it will save some lives on the highway assuming (scary thought) that you have a drivers license.

DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN MORE OR IS THIS SUFFICIENT
Jan 13 2012 11:25PM
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douchebagmdgee
Posts: 300 - Karma: 26
GPE =/= Kinetic Energy.
Vertical Kinetic Energy =/= Horizontal Kinetic Energy.

This is not 7th grade physics rather 11th grade physics. You are still wrong, however, you would be falling faster towards the landing on a stepdown, yes, but your HORIZONTAL kinetic energy would be the same. You could add the vertical and horizontal energies together, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that you do not gain any horizontal speed through the air without an outside force. More so, the air resistance could be counted as Fs (Force of friction). So on a jump such as a step down with more airtime and a harder landing, you will actually be approaching the landing slower horizontally than a table top.

Also, due to momentum, you will be approaching the landing with a greater momentum, yes, and your velocity will be greater, yes, but you will not be going any faster on a step down of table top when you land.

Lastly, If your landing was at a 60 degree angle and you counted as landing with your skis like this \\, i see where you are coming from. But this wasn't the argument.

And you totally pulled that x+something nonsense out of your ass, give me an equation which relates potential energy to horizontal kinetic energy and maybe I will change my opinion.
Jan 14 2012 12:13AM
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douchebagmdgee
Posts: 300 - Karma: 26
Also I can tell you aren't a Physics Major rather a high school student with the knowledge of Physics 11 and maybe 12 courses. I sure am not one either, but I'm getting my bachelors of science with a major in physics at University next year. So neither one of us have the credentials to make a justified argument, so neither one of us have credibility as a physicist. So stop talking to people like you are smarter than them ("thanks for wasting my life explaining 7th grade physics to you"). Have a nice day :)
Jan 14 2012 12:22AM
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m-ruta
Posts: 160 - Karma: 168
Chatted with the guys who build the Panorama park about this exact issue before the season started and what they were saying is that the only reason they don't build tables is the amount of snow and extra cat time. Nothing to do with physics or liability, just a matter of them being much harder to do right. They'd rather put thier time towards a properly built step down than a shady table.
Jan 14 2012 12:52AM
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NTPJ
Posts: 173 - Karma: 8
thanks for backing me up. i struggled to explain it without a diagram +k
Jan 14 2012 2:42AM
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JakeAssBeatClap
Posts: 6673 - Karma: 2,537
This here is enough proof for me that you are not a physics major.

air resistance is caused by the molecules in the air itself. at sea level there will be more air resistance than on a mountain due to less atmosphere or "air" the higher you get. There are less molecules creating friction on your body. The thing that makes your jacket flap around when you're flossing down the hill is a shit load of molecules that make up the air around us that you are displacing as you move through them. In a perfect vacuum there is no air resistance because there is no "air". So you saying that air resistance is the same anywhere on earth at any given air pressure not only makes it obvious that you are not a physics major. But that if you even took a basic physics class in high school you probably failed it. No physics major would ever say that dumb of a statement. Sorry.
Jan 14 2012 2:57AM
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NTPJ
Posts: 173 - Karma: 8
I used the word probably as, not being a nobel prize winning physicist like yourself, I don't known exactly how much a skier would slow down as a result of air resistance while hitting a jump. However, as we are not in outer space I can assure you that they would slow down (even if it is a small amount) because of Newton's second law.

As I said in my first post the vertical speed would be increased due to gravity (an external force acting on the skier). Once you leave the lip the only force acting on you in the horizontal direction is air resistance, therefore you slow down.

Ask your physics teacher about vectors,

Don't through a hissy fit because a English Schoolboy has a better grasp of how the world works that you do.
Jan 14 2012 2:58AM
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JakeAssBeatClap
Posts: 6673 - Karma: 2,537
he just can't admit he's wrong look at my post above the one i'm quoting he has no grasp of air resistance he said it all in what i quoted.
Jan 14 2012 3:05AM
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maxwell666
Posts: 554 - Karma: 20
you are majoring and physics? bullshit, no physics major thinks there is such thing as "horizontal kinetic energy" energy is a scalar quantity, not a vector, there is no direction associated with energy.

he never said you would have a larger horizontal velocity, he said a higher speed, speed is a scalar quantity as well, it also has no direction, and you will have a higher speed landing from a stepdown compared to a tabletop if the takeoffs are the same size and you leave at the same speed.

air resistance wont change depending on whether your jump is a step down or a table, he was right, if you throw a ball straight up at 5m/s, it will be going 5m/s downwards when you neglect air resistance, and since horizontal velocity is constant that means that on a tabletop with an equal height landing, your velocity vector when you land is a vertically reflected copy of your takeoff vector, and since the norm of those vectors is equal, you will land at the same speed you took off at. (if you land at the same height)

john got it, and you are an idiot.
Jan 14 2012 4:42AM
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maxwell666
Posts: 554 - Karma: 20
majoring in physics*
Jan 14 2012 4:44AM
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a_pla5tic_bag
Posts: 9215 - Karma: 5,398
also, stop putting what is essentially a quarter pipe in front of a slope and calling it a ramp. i'll as high as i'd like please.
Jan 14 2012 10:47AM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
i lost it so hard reading your post. thanks for the laugh tho. your physics teacher should be shot.
Jan 14 2012 11:10AM
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Twig
Posts: 6407 - Karma: 60,032
most big jumps in european resorts are built like this (in my experience anyway) here in Saas Fee the biggest jump is a stepover, I'll try to remember to get a photo tomorrow.
Jan 14 2012 11:21AM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
hahaha thanks bro and plus karma
Jan 14 2012 11:23AM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
i said air resistance is the same at areas of a given air pressure everywhere on earth.  at a high altitude where there is less air pressure, there will be less air resistance. if you go to  any part of the world that has the same air pressure, as the air pressure at the high altitude location, air resistance will be the same. this was implied clearly by what i originally said. so next time read a little slower and think before you post asshole
Jan 14 2012 11:37AM
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El_Patcho
Posts: 182 - Karma: 53
hurts like fuck stacking out on a step down. like, ssshwwwooooshKABLAMMMMM ow.
Jan 14 2012 11:48AM
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JakeAssBeatClap
Posts: 6673 - Karma: 2,537
You actually didn't say that. at all. I originally quoted you very accurately but just to be sure i did my best here you go

"you could design a true table with perfect slope angles where neglecting air resistance (which is the same at a given air pressure anywhere on earth last time i checked) you could let a cannonball roll towards a true table took of at a precise speed (not velocity) so that it took off the lip at speed x, flew through the air, and literally rolled onto the knuckle with the exact same speed x it had when it took off from the lip. The speed and ke on take off and landing are exactly equal in this case."

Neglecting air resistance(which is the same at agiven air pressure anywhere on earth last time I checked) =/= air resistance is the same at areas of a given air pressure everywhere on earth. at a high altitude where there is less air pressure, there will be less air resistance.

and to quote you generously once again.

"this was implied clearly by what i originally said."

No it fucking wasn't.

So Physics Professor John Stossel, You're an idiot. And watch who you call an asshole I've been here longer than you, admit defeat when you lose an argument, especially when it's on the fucking internet, the most insignificant place to have an argument. And never post 21 times in another thread again. Go fuck yourself... asshole.




Jan 14 2012 11:53AM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
dude.... just shut up, i am smarter than you, because if i was dumber than someone who has your level of understanding of physics, id fucking blow my brains out. read maxwells post and shut the fuck up
Jan 14 2012 12:00PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
no 1
focus on the words 'air resistance is the same at a given air pressure",

no 2
think about the english language.

no 3
 realize that my statement is a conditional statement. and then you will notice i never implied that air resistance, or air pressure were the same everywhere on earth because i used the phrase 'at a given'  

im not gonna waste my time explaining further if you cant understand it by now
Jan 14 2012 12:41PM
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Mr_pretzel
Posts: 4616 - Karma: 1,289
Can someone post a photo of each kind of jump?
Jan 14 2012 12:48PM
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120494435941
Posts: 0 - Karma: 37
table jumps are not more dangerous according to physics.....so stop talking about fucking physics.
Jan 14 2012 12:55PM
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pag
Posts: 3412 - Karma: 69
I always liked tabletops! Especially the Val-St-Come ones back then in quebec

As far as I know, I think both of you have it right and wrong

Air drag formula: Click for larger image

and he's right with pgh being bigger with stepdown, fuck the lip is X feet bigger than the other, how can you deny that. But on the other hand, I think you're right about the velocity vector, let's say you did a mistake there(let's not play with words, I suck at it too). Because the speed is the mix of all those velocity vectors.

So let's say 1.1 Cd (wikipedia source) for a skier,
A=let's say 2m*.4=.80m^2 so face of human going X and face of skis+ human going y

v=25km/h=25*1000/3600=6.944m/s

Just hope all is in metric but should be

1/2 * 1.07**(Vx or Vy)^2*1.1*.80

Then velocity vector let's say angle is 45 degree

Vx=cos(45)*6.94=3.64573
Vy=sin(45)*6.94= 5.095
Vz=negligeable there is no side win

So let's see the force

Fdx=5.90667 N
Fdy=15.4958 N

I don't know but that seems something we can not think of.
Probly hitting a jump huge jump at 100km/h might make a difference tho.

On the other hand,

htabletop= Delta copping to landing spot
hstepdown=Deltacopping + lip height

So basicly we can say that say that

hsetpdown-htabletop=hlip height

then we can say that p*g*hlip eight=1/2 m*v^2
and that the v will be the speed difference
if they do land at same spot, wich should be because the xvelocity should be the same I think
But I might be wrong on that one...

Then again, it's sure that you'll land at a faster speed if you leave the lip at the same speed.
But you cannot calculate like he did, because the speed needs to be decompose in 2 parts













Jan 14 2012 1:06PM
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pag
Posts: 3412 - Karma: 69
And btw, nothing to argue about I know something, just stop arguing!

And yeah I want more tabletop too!
Jan 14 2012 1:08PM
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pag
Posts: 3412 - Karma: 69
How big that is in feet?
Hieght and leght?
it looks huge!
and it seems it take a lot but a lot of snow!
Jan 14 2012 1:12PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
again, in case anybody skipped this. they should read it cuz youll learn something
Jan 14 2012 1:57PM
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urgent_care
Posts: 111 - Karma: 17
I really don't get the arguments here. Tabletops are safer than step downs. Simple as that.
Jan 14 2012 2:04PM
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douchebagmdgee
Posts: 300 - Karma: 26
Did you read my next post? Sure i used the wrong terminology, sue me for that, but I think the point of the debate was how fast you would be going. And I should have said I WANT to major in physics, I already stated that I lacked credentials, obviously I have much to learn. Whats trial if you have no error. Calling me an idiot when I clearly said that I have no credentials just makes you look like an egotistical jerk.
Jan 14 2012 2:13PM
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douchebagmdgee
Posts: 300 - Karma: 26
There's a reason you have less Karma than posts. You're a prick.
Jan 14 2012 2:17PM
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tripnip
Posts: 1882 - Karma: 482
i hit that yesterday its amazing and its great because you arent falling that far if you fuck up
Jan 14 2012 2:19PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
hahaha dude seriously tuck your tail in between yor legs, shut the fuck up, and leave me the fuck alone
Jan 14 2012 2:31PM
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douchebagmdgee
Posts: 300 - Karma: 26
Nice one, freedom of speech is a bitch eh.
Jan 14 2012 2:37PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
this
the ignorance had me on the verge of tears
Jan 14 2012 2:41PM
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john.stossel
Posts: 943 - Karma: 5
good timing to change your icon, dont want people associating your old icon with one of the biggest self embarrassments to ever occur on ns.
Jan 14 2012 2:55PM
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heFF
Posts: 5786 - Karma: 4,456
they're actually fucking tight...
Jan 14 2012 3:58PM
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Guard_Puma
Posts: 344 - Karma: 82
K tables are less dangerous than step downs because when you land your horizontal velocity will be more or less the same as when you took off, but you have less time falling vertically on a table than a step down, so your KE will be smaller and thus when you land, there will be less potential for injury. God I hope I didn't just make a drunken fool of myself.
Jan 15 2012 2:04AM
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