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January, 2025

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How enviromentally responsible are the ski companies that we buy from?

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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,121
No heated global warming debates here. I think pretty much anyone can agree that it will do no harm for the industry to move towards developing more sustainable products. The only way this will happen though is through our decisions at the ski shop.

Look at the surf industry, there has been an absolute revolution which was driven mainly through the voice of the consumers. If you go on to any surf companies website, there will be a link right up there explaining what the companies are doing for the environment.

I don't really know what i'm trying to get at. What I think would be awesome is if we could collaborate and do some unbiased research on the materials, production and transportation of goods from various ski brands. Then make sure to information out to everyone.

I know a lot of companies use bamboo which is much more sustainable than hardwood. I am wondering about base material as well, I know that wetsuits can now be made from plant-based neoprene. Is there anyone using base materials like this. Also what companies are locally producing skis, and what ones are flying half-way around the world to reach you? This is the kind of stuff we keed to know.
Jan 8 2012 2:42PM
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Yossarian
Posts: 1078 - Karma: 56
Superior depends entirely on your point of view. Cost/Benefit analysis based purely on monetary terms and best end product are really no longer applicable in a situation where environmental issues are becoming increasingly pertinent in business and politics both domestically and internationally.

And yes I will admit I couldn't really be bothered thinking of any specific examples, but the point stands.

Admitting that rising prices is something that will happen because we will inevitably become shorter in supply is one thing (in relation to skis for example the base materials made from oil derivatives), but saying that I am letting companies get away with it is just straight wrong.
 As a consumer I understand that my choices influence market performance, that's why I express interest in environmental products of a what I would call a decent price.
Two topical examples, I expressed interest about the above Atomic ski boots - they looked like a quality product and from the description given it appeared that they would perform well and I would be willing to pay that price. In a perfect world I would hold them and examine them in person, but you cant have everything. However, I wouldn't feel comfortable buying those bamboo poles (panda poles??) as $80 is a  hefty price increase from the market norm. It may be a great product and I appreciate that the company is trying to do something sustainable and different, but I personally couldn't justify it.
These examples illustrate my desire to have an impact on the companies that operate in the snowsports industry - I try to buy responsibly, but I won't pay over the odds for it.


Jan 9 2012 5:47PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,121
I think I would rather buy a ski pole that I haven't seen in person rather than a boot. A boot is one thing that I will not buy online. I need to go to a store to get them fit. That means the store has to make the decision whether to buy them or not.

that being said, if I had known about that boot the last time I got boots, I would have made a serious effort to go try them on!

as for prices, well again I'm looking at surfing, but look at plant based neoprene. Many wetsuits have switched over to that type of material, and the costs have remained the same. If you mass produce the eco friendly stuff, the prices are similar to the hydrocarbon based stuff.

I wouldn't be suprised if a company decided to completely switch over to a material like the atomic boot, then the cost difference would be negligible
Jan 9 2012 9:52PM
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RossB
Posts: 67 - Karma: 13
I knew the pebax sounded familiar... So my AT boots are not only lighter, but better for the environment?
Jan 9 2012 10:52PM
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james6345789
Posts: 4763 - Karma: 461
My hill is powered 100 by wind energy. No, there are not turbines on the hill.
Jan 9 2012 10:58PM
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Parks.
Posts: 5612 - Karma: 1,093
That's pretty cool actually...which mountain is dat?
Jan 9 2012 11:17PM
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james6345789
Posts: 4763 - Karma: 461
Haha it's a 16 run hill in Minnesota. So it's not a hugeeeee de
Jan 9 2012 11:30PM
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james6345789
Posts: 4763 - Karma: 461
Fing mobile huge deal but it still is aot
Jan 9 2012 11:30PM
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james6345789
Posts: 4763 - Karma: 461
FUCK huge deal but it's still a lot cleaner energy.
Jan 9 2012 11:31PM
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james6345789
Posts: 4763 - Karma: 461
And Rime Knits is pretty responsible
Jan 9 2012 11:32PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21097 - Karma: 8,526
Aspen/Snowmass is leading the industry in environmental efforts as far as ski resorts go. They reinvest a ton of their profits into sustainability.

As for that Atomic boot example (not trying to single them out, just using as an example), I'm all for companies trying to be environmentally responsible, but when a company offers one product out of an entire line of products that reduces their impact on the environment and claims to be "green", they're missing the point. Companies should be sustainable to be sustainable. They shouldn't have to market it. It should be a given.
Jan 10 2012 1:00AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6724 - Karma: 11,551
Pebax is similar to other plastics in that it comes in different hardnesses. You can have a very soft PU, or you can have a very hard PU. Pebax is simiar. And it also depends on wall thickness of the shell- 0.5mm can make a huge difference in how the plastic flexes/feels.
Jan 10 2012 3:40AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6724 - Karma: 11,551
Totally valid points. It's always a gamble to market something and call it out. I'm sure it was a contributing factor. On the other side, if you don't call it out (somehow at least) it doesn't sell well outside of the US market. You would be very surprised how much of the global ski/boot business is self-service shopping and there is a huge need to make the products speak for themselves. But, I totally think your point is valid.

However, this was the existing mold that worked best for Pebax. If you read my other posts, you would have seen my explanation on plastics and mold construction and how you need to (generally speaking) develop specific molds for specific plastics. So, Pebax worked in the RT CS mold but it did not work in other molds unfortunately. So we could not use it in B-Tech or Live Fit.

In molds like B-Tech and Live Fit we do use recycled plastics and don't speak of it. Whenever you make plastic injection, there is what is called "scrap"- boots that did not inject well and you cannot sell them. We take this scrap, chop it all up, remelt it, and use it again. This practice is very common among all boot companies and has no quality problems.
Jan 10 2012 3:49AM
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PlaygroundRapist
Posts: 1307 - Karma: 26
That's actually really cool.
Jan 10 2012 4:41AM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,054
moment goes out of their way to use only united states based materials, interestingly enough excluding bamboo, which isn't available domestically.
Jan 10 2012 6:17AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6724 - Karma: 11,551
I agree that companies should just do it. But at the same time, since no one really did it yet, it was kind of a statement to the ski boot world that it can be done, and should be done.

Like in my previous posts, I explain why it is difficult to use that material and how the entire ski boot industry already recycles the "scrap" material. Scrap, however, is only good for making black colored plastic, and even then it has to be the same type of plastic (PE or PU) and same hardness (so you get the same flex). And that takes time to collect.

Same goes for liner foam- there are portions the liner which are just filler (not heat moldable, just supportive) and so we use recycled foam (looks like carpet foam) in those spots. So there are silent steps we are taking and just doing it, not calling it out.

But I think where we will disagree is that I think companies should call it out. I think people want to know if their boot is environmentally friendly and if we don't call it out, people will never know about it.
Jan 10 2012 10:32AM
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Justo8484
Posts: 3905 - Karma: 206
the self-service thing still blows my mind. we used to hear this from the lange rep all the time about how they were struggling in europe because their boots were generally low volume/narrow, so they didn't fit well straight off the wall or without getting proper boot work done. for as much of a skiing culture as there is in europe, they don't understand that you ski better when your boots fit you properly?
Jan 10 2012 11:41AM
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Yossarian
Posts: 1078 - Karma: 56
Let's not tarnish all Europeans with that. Being said though I were a pair of Dalbellos that weren't bootfitted and I've never had a boot fit so well.

There is also the argument that Euro's who are intense about their skiing know exactly what they want from the boot so can make a solid choice that tweaking won't make much of a difference.
Jan 10 2012 12:51PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6724 - Karma: 11,551
I honestly don't know how they do it... there are about 5 or 6 shops in Austria that are at the same level of boot-fitting as my old shop in Vermont. Yet Austria sells almost 4 times as many boots as the USA does. Looking at sales reports and seeing what sizes sell over here, people are most likely buying their boots too big and dealing with it.

Some areas are better than others, but generally central Europe has few professional boot-fitters. There are a lot in England though.

This pic is from Japan, but could have been taken in most any Intersport in Europe- 100% self-service friendly, all boots in all sizes are on display:

Click for larger image
Jan 10 2012 1:34PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,121
oh my lord, what a mess!

I kind of made this point earlier but this is why I think an eco friendly boot has much less of a market than outerwear, skis, poles etc... Basically you have to choose a boot that fits you perfect. That alone is slicing your potential customers by a large amount, plus then the people who the boot does fit have to choose to go with that particular choice.

I'm not saying it was a bad idea, actually I think it was a fantastic idea. I'm just saying that the failure of this boot should not discourage anyone from trying things like this for other products.
Jan 10 2012 2:48PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,121
I'm thinking of like a powder ski. Like has anyone researched different base materials? It's not like skiing pow requires race quality bases, in fact I think more people would prefer a harder base that is slower on groomers. It would be a lot easier to convince this market to change to a new type of base material than say for a pipe/race ski.

Also what about the resin we use? I wonder if anyone is experimenting with more environmentally friendly resins.

I think it would be amazing one day for a company to come out with a killer line of skis. Like a park ski, big mountain ski, all-mountain ski and a pow ski that all use the most sustainable products and manufacturing processes available. I think it would be easy to market this as long as the focus was on killer skis and not solely the environmental benefits.

Anyways that's all a dream still. Why I made this thread was really to ask about what companies are currently doing. Let's keep this discussion going!
Jan 10 2012 2:49PM
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skijunkiedtm
Posts: 9229 - Karma: 61
How about eco-friendly goggles? does anyone do this? seems like a no brainer to me, plant based plastics, maybe hemp strap, only the lens I could see being tricky. Goggles are also often a "fashion statement" among our sports and thus a perfect opportunity to market the sustainable mindset.
Jan 10 2012 4:45PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6724 - Karma: 11,551
Smith has the Evolve collection which does this
Jan 11 2012 8:43AM
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freeskibum82
Posts: 6355 - Karma: 5,057
and the price to make these and the price to sell was too high to justify the limited demand. thats why it was cancelled.
Jan 11 2012 9:38AM
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weiler
Posts: 735 - Karma: 654
www.libertyskis.com   all bamboo cores which is a renewable resource and 100% windpower manufacturing! Liberty is doing this and has been doing this!
Jan 11 2012 10:20AM
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PON3
Posts: 3817 - Karma: 783
Every time I see you post I always enjoy it and learn sooo much more! hands down my favorite member, and I will talking with you soon about atomic boots and what to get :)
Jan 11 2012 11:47AM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,121
Does anyone know what actually makes the green life better than the watch life?

I want to buy this ski but the website pretty much only tells me that it is the "do good ski" and not why.
Jan 31 2012 3:38AM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21097 - Karma: 8,526
i think it's made out of bamboo?
Jan 31 2012 3:42AM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,121
Website says it has a poplar core, ABS sidewalls, extruded base etc...

No mention of any alternative materials/epoxy at all. Makes me curious.
Jan 31 2012 3:49AM
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250r
Posts: 2276 - Karma: 1,013
as pricey as they are...i think i may have to grab a pair of those panda poles, they look pretty awesome
Jan 31 2012 4:53AM
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