It looks like you are using an ad blocker. That's okay. Who doesn't? But without advertising revenue, we can't keep making this site awesome. Click the link below for instructions on disabling adblock.
Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post.
Register to become a member today!
Lately, there have been news almost weekly about people raving on about the superiority of the modern Finnish education system. Researchers, education ministry task forces and other leaders try to study and emulate our education system because of its supposed effectiveness.
I find this kind of intriguing, as it's obvious that any single educational system or platform doesn't fit each possible student with perfection as there are always outliers, but it's also amazing to hear how flabbergasted people old and young are when they get acquainted with how the school system is operated here, especially cats from North America. One of the more stark differences seems to be that in Finland teachers are very respected and it's percentually even harder to become one than a lawyer or a doctor.
Finland has been #1 or near the very top of the PISA test for students, usually followed by South Korea and Shanghai. It kind of also speaks about the humility of our students, teachers and ministers, that when we first took the number one PISA spot, pretty much everyone here thought it must be a mistake.
If you're interested in the subject or discussing it, telling about your own country's system compared to ours and what you make of this whole hulabaloo then be my guest.
Here are a few recent articles about the subject and a trailer for a documentary about the subject, it's a pretty interesting film, you can find a download for it on Google I'm sure.
"More bear than tiger, Finland scorns almost all standardized testing before age 16 and discourages homework, and it is seen as a violation of children’s right to be children for them to start school any sooner than 7."
Well OP you have been educated in Finland and write better than 90% of the native english speakers here. Credit to you and your nation who so thouroughly vanquished all Soviet attempts to invade it. (1930's-40's history shoutout!)
Thanks, I've always been interested in English, but a good reason for a quite universal knowledge of "The American Language" in here are subtitles in foreign television programs. It's such a help in developing understanding for a language from the moment one learns how to read and watches TV.
Personally I think that one of the main differences between us and many other countries, as mentioned in one of those articles, is that we don't have any private schools in Finland and all education even to highest University levels is free (publically funded). Some people might think this is weird but it works pretty darn well.
It feels good getting paid to study instead of paying out the ass to study.
He is guy who makes entertaining videos for YouTube, he is a normal dude, yet maybe a bit weird and on the unattractive side, but he's still a completely normal guy. Don't know what any education system would have to do with that?
Joke or not, many people do think this way. It also seems that the college experience is very different in the US, as many move away from home and experience "independent" life at hand. It's been so highly advertised in different media around the world that it's become a living, breathing trope.
Are there any detailed documentaries on how the Finnish system came to be? I can not even begin to imagine how the US system could begin to imitate it as it is so foreign at the most basic levels. Is it the quality of the teachers? the freedoms they are granted? The biggest problem I see in the US system is in the drive of the students, how do they Finnish face this?
I really feel this is THE issue for America, if we want to continue to prosper.
I believe there are books written on the subject, theses, doctorates and such at least. Not sure of the availability in English though. The process of change began in 1975 and the implementation was fully complete in 1991, after which the modern system has stayed relatively the same, but growing to a more effective being all the time.
Well, from what I've read and heard compared to the US, we are granted so much more freedom as students, not just in the studying itself, but the time students spend on school (in theory) is just crazy. Like, longest day I had before high school (which is voluntary) was like 7 hours. We don't have any "necessary" extra curricular stuff that Unis look at either, way less homework from what I've seen, no standardized tests at all etc.
I have no idea about the drive of students there compares to us, but you could start by saying that most of my junior high/high school time was spent on independent studying, even during classes. The teachers, stereotypically, are both respected but on the same level, no needs for "Mr. or Mrs. Smith" stuff. You could say that a regular English class would consist of the teacher telling us one new thing, like nominative use etc. then we would practice that alone or in groups for a while and the teacher would either fuck off completely or walk around helping us. They can design classes however they want, I believe. I'll have a few friends who'll become teachers in a few years so I'll get to know the whole process better.
Oh and skijunkie, of course we are looking at this at an universal level, there could be and probably are teachers here who are completely backwards, not everything about them is perfect. I do believe that most teachers, at least on the Uni and high school level were very driven, talented and continued to study their profession even more.
You have to have a Master's of the subject to become a teacher, and complete the required teaching pedagogy studies as well.
I think you're SN kinda goes for this, but this is no troll thread, "motherfucker". I have no idea what you mean by dumb, ignorant and self-absorbed organizations.
Uni of Helsinki hasn't even been ranked on the QS scale yet, it seems. We don't really care about "rankings" here either, if you would begin to understand that. As the saying goes, "Real winners don't compete". And we only want to be better than Sweden anyway.
Plus:
#89 University of Helsinki Finland
Fees $0
International fees $0
I'd buy that for a dollar, but I wouldn't even have to. On top of that, this is mostly about the ground-up education systems we are talking about here, not specifically University level. By the time you enter a University, you are a grown-up and are able to make your own decisions, but public school is a must and we seem to be doing something right here, or at least differently than many other countries.
Does Finland have a system where families/kids are given an education stipend and allowed to use it at whichever school they like? I seem to recall some northern European country doing that and having a lot of success because it gave schools more incentive to improve. I just can't remember which one.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but all education is already free in Finland, so we don't need any stipends (scholarships?). Schools and companies do give away small stipends at graduations at pretty much every institution. For example, if you excel in music in high school, you might get a 3000e prize from the Sibelius Music Academy or if you wrote perfect grades in Physics, Maths and Chemistry you might get something similar from a Tech University or company etc.
I was the best of my class exceling in English when I graduated High School, you know what I got? A fucking English dictionary. If that's not ironic then I don't know what is.
the first part is just sad, and is a pretty embarrassing "motto". the second part is pretty funny.
Personally, i think that undergrad, grad, and post grad are the only education levels that matter. those are the only levels where "real" learning happens. high school and lower you are just learning basic shit. its only when you get to college and beyond where you start becoming truly educated.
I think that success at lower levels of education is entirely dependent on how much emphasis your parents place on that education.
I think he's talking about how parents in Finland can choose where their children go to school as opposed to in america where your choices are either private schools or district schools, so if the school in your district sucks and your parents don't make enough money to pay for a private school your pretty much stuck at a shitty school.
I'm not the one who said it, but I understand what it means. If you think it's sad, then I don't know.
The whole thing here is the power of that basic level and how it affects your possibilites, attitudes and aptitude to learn and better yourself. Helsinki U is a good and respected school in any case.
I for one don't think that parents should be worried at all about a child's upcoming in the school world, and althought Hover Cam parents are multiplying day after day over here as well, we trust in the school system and don't monitor it too much. I don't think many people here believe that success is, or even should be dependent on parental emphasis at all.
The main thing here is probably the definition of a good school and a shitty school. Is it the amount of funding, highest GPA, amount of selective classes, closeness to home, number of students per class et cetera?
the US and finland are completely different societies, with different cultural norms, and a different way of viewing things. So im not gonna say what Finnish parents should be doing, cause i have no idea.
Still, the qoute about real winners dont compete is fucked up IMO. Is that seriously a saying over there? (legit question)
I know, that's one of the reasons this is an interesting topic.
As for the saying, it's just a phrase from a book, but it has a deep meaning when looking at (stereotypical) Finnish humility and self-loathing.
When Finland was selected as Newsweek's #1 Best Country To Live In, there was almost an outrage by citizens here saying "No fucking way are we be the best, this and that country is better blah blah. Well, Finland is pretty good place, yeah, but best, couldn't be, no...".
It's the basis of the American dream, It is entirely up to the individual how far they go and the idea that is up to ones self to overcome all obstacles on your own, no excuses such as being placed into a "bad school."
The real loser is the one who doesn't even compete.
^That would be a real saying. What you have is idiotic.
Also, in order to pay for all of our teachers to get Master's Degrees, we would need an immense amount of money that we simply do not have. I'd be all for cutting Social Security to pay for it, but that's not going happen.
Actually, I've got an even better idea. Since we put so much money into our military, why don't we just go take all the good teachers from Finland? Nothing they can do to stop it.
If you're trying to strike some war bullshit into this conversation, don't. Plus I sense that you might be an alias.
One of the points about this discussion is also free education here, so your point of not demanding Master's degrees because it's too expensive is kind of inane. Like B-Wald said, if there's a cultural basis for the saying "Those who can't, teach" over there, then that already tells a lot.
agreed... just an interesting thought bout how society has created a period of limbo called adolesence.. not sure how much i agree with but i find it interesting
It sounds horrible, but really it's up to the student to learn. If they don't have the motivation to learn, they won't.
A student who slacks and barely scrapes by will not get the same quality of education as a student who puts in the recommended time (2 hours per class hour) and studies hard for exams.
Is it wrong to hold the student accountable for their education? No, it's their education and it's up to them to grab it by the balls and take advantage of it. This is true whether the government pays for it or not.
Of course it's up to any student to learn, that's a given, but you could extend that to any part of life and it's the same - no two person's are alike. It's a dead end for any discussion.
This is exactly about the level and quality of education and how that is achieved in different countries, and here we have already many good examples about stark differences between systems and prenotions concerning them, we even have some ideas of stopping limiting kids with the adolescent phase.
This is what you get when you pay higher taxes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I belive the Scandinavian nations run on a quasi-socialist system? (IMO not a bad thing)
A kid who works harder should get better grades and a better education. To give special treatment to lazy kids just because they don't want to do the work is absurd. If anybody deserves special treatment and extra educational attention, it's the motivated, hard-working students.
You're completely misunderstanding the statement. The quality of someone's education should not be dependent on the person. What you get out of that education by studying, learning and achieving is a completely different matter.
That's like saying, and I'm exaggerating here, that a class is taught history by a complete lunatic, denouncing the Holocaust or Armenian genocide as lies, giving them study material that supports his lunacy, and then it would still be up to the children to "work hard" and understand that they are being lied to and manipulated. If the class doesn't realize this, they are bad students.
No, man, really. If I'm coming across like that then I'll try to refrain...from saying anything that would sound like it.
I'm just one guy with my own beliefs, trying to bring out an interesting topic concerning the country I happen to live in, so it might sound biased, but I'm very unpatriotic. I just think things are run pretty well here, but for example I love Sweden and think it is a better country than Finland in most aspects, and there are a lot of Finns who would beat my ass for saying that.
I just defend my views a lot, not trying to say they are better than someone elses.
