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Users hating and down rating pictures

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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
I'm not expecting any thing from this thread but I hope that some users would change a bit.

So this is my story :

I started really using NS about a month ago, I posted some cool pics I had on my computer and some of them got on NS frontpage. This got me really stocked and motivated me to improve my photography and Photoshop skills. I started to make some sequences and some got on NS frontapge.

Last week I uploaded a sequence that I spent a long time working on !!!
And I was pleasantly stocked when I saw a day later that it had a perfect rating of 10 for 21 ratings.

But then some hater/haters came along and down rated my picture to 8.31 for a total of 26 ratings.

I find it strange that the rating went from 10's to 1's this is why I'm pretty sure it is just some haters that wanted to get picture of the day. And yes I like to see my pics on the frontpage but I'm not going to down rate pics for that !!!

I just find it really uncool of some users to do that, because I like to see that people like my pics but when I know that I had a perfect rating and than that it goes down to almost 8 it just sucks !!!!

There I really hope that the user/users that did this or that do this to other pics change and stop doing it.

And here is my math :

At 21 ratings 21 * 10.0 = 210 points
At 22 ratings 22 * 9.59 = 211 points So one user rated a 1 !!!
At 26 ratings 26 * 8.31 = 216 points So three users rated a 1 and one rated a 2 !!!

Seriously UNCOOL !!!

and here is a pic of the ratings going down http://joris-blanc.com/ns/haters_hatin.jpg

Dec 4 2011 8:15AM
2 1
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.spaghetticat.
Posts: 4283 - Karma: 890
i rated it 10..
Dec 4 2011 8:40AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
Thanks man I also rated your pictures a 10 !! They are crazy sick !!!!
Hornbeck's nose press is dope !!!!
Dec 4 2011 8:52AM
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shorty_T
Posts: 2725 - Karma: 761
Honestly you can't expect everyone to love your pictures, that's the whole point of a rating system. You can't always get 10's but that doesn't mean your work is worth less. Welcome to the internet.
Dec 4 2011 11:16AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
I'm not expecting that everyone likes my pictures or to only get 10's !!!
I just find that it isn't cool to go from ratings of 10 to only 1's. There isn't anything in the middle !!!

Dec 4 2011 11:43AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
This is very true.

However, I have been detecting people downrating stuff a little bit lately as well. Its the same thing as happens in the contests - when there is a prize or something people want on the line there are those that attempt to game the system.

What I do really try to ask of people is to be respectful of what you are rating things. Don't try to game the system, because it lowers the quality of the site for all of us. I really want to focus on building a respectful community around content, and it is going to take all of us to do it.

I can understand not liking a photo, but if something gets a 10 it is highly unlikely that someone else would rate it a 1. THere has to be some redeeming qualities to it if 20 people give it a 10.

We'll start watching this harder, and we will strat banning people who are attempting to game the system. It is REALLY easy to see (we can see everything in the backend) when you're gaming systems. Your ratings always follow a clear pattern, so don't think you'll be able to be sneaky and get away with it.

And Joris - don't lose faith. Your pics have been great, and keep 'em coming. I'm sure that not all of them will be ones that people get excited about, but take lower ratings in stride. I can't wait to see what comes out of you for this winter!


Dec 4 2011 11:46AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
Thanks Mr.Bishop,

It would really be great if the rating system would be accurate on what the people think of the picture !!!

And thanks for your compliments Mr.Bishop. I'm gonna try and get some cool shots this winter, and post them on NS :-)

Ps : I'm pretty sure this pic got down rated !!!

Dec 4 2011 4:18PM
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soulskier
Posts: 17806 - Karma: 3,841
by ratings being posted with a username, at least people would be held accountable.
Dec 4 2011 7:31PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
That is actually not a half bad idea. We'll do some digging on this issue and come up with a solution. We have a pretty busy week, but this is important.

The photos which made it into top rated today have all been downrated clearly. I'm going to find out who is responsible and you will no longer be welcome here.


Dec 4 2011 11:05PM
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eheath
Posts: 61594 - Karma: 122,979
Even though the OP is being over sensitive, I think this is a great example of why it should be a like/dislike system, thumbs up thumbs down, the more liked you get, the farther you progress in the top rated (day, week, month, year) top videos have the best like to dislike ratio. eh?
Dec 4 2011 11:13PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
Possibly. Only issue here would be converting all the old ratings.

The same issue could still happen though, with people just making a ton of fake accounts and voting down. The math is somewhat better, but not by all that much. We were really able to contain this in the contest system because cheat voting is super duper easy to spot - both for a moderator and in the code of the site.

I actually really liked the idea of publicizing the votes. I mean if we're being critics, we shoudl stand behind what we're saying.

I'll dive deep in this either this week or next, and I'm positive we'll get this sorted.


Dec 4 2011 11:42PM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
I really like eheath system thought you wouldn't be able to sort out any fake accounts, the only way would be to see with an ip address but then it could just be a friend/family that also has an account !!!
And as Bishop said it would be hard to convert all the old rating into the new system to keep every picture's rating legit.

But the system where you could see who rated your picture is an good idea, it would definitely reduce the down rating.
Than the question would be if it would be public or not, I personally think that if it is just for the owner of the picture it would be good, and have a tab "ratings" where you could see all the ratings on you pic and maybe have a report this rating (or something in the idea) !!!
The problem with this system that if the owner of the pic see's that someone didn't give a good rating (but not downrating like 1-3 on a good pic) he may just go and downrate the other users pic/vid..

An idea I had, would be that after 3-4-5 rating it there is a rating that is 5 points apart from the average rating of the 3-4-5 initial ratings, then a admin would be notified !!!
Example : if after 4 rating you have a average rating of 9.00 and the 5th rating is of 3 an admin would be notified.

I really like where this thread is going, can't wait to see what this is going to change !!!

And I almost laugh at today's top rated pictures page, everything under 8 !!!
Dec 5 2011 3:06AM
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eheath
Posts: 61594 - Karma: 122,979
You gotta understand though, NS has always been 10s and 1s... its just how it is, someone is always going to rate you a 1 so that their picture or their friends picture will come up higher. Or, in my case, because people just don't like me they give me 1s but because my content shines, i get enough 10s to drown the 1s. If your shit is good enough it still sticks out, period. I think that it does suck that people give 1s to shit thats pretty good, but its always going to happen and has been happening for 10+ years.
Dec 5 2011 3:16AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
You have a good point, people will always rate 1's even thought it is good.
But these last days the ratings of 1's and 2's in the pictures section of the website is getting out of hand and at this point I really think that something has to be done to limit it !!!
(i don't know if it is the same in the video section rating's)

And I know that my content has the potential to drown the 1's !!!

Dec 5 2011 4:31AM
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eheath
Posts: 61594 - Karma: 122,979
i mean, a couple 1s or 2s is nothing man, every day kids go into the video/photo sections and give shit zeros, whether they dont like the picture, dont like the person or want to hype up something else. It happens and honestly it might be impossible to change.
Dec 5 2011 4:51AM
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shorty_T
Posts: 2725 - Karma: 761
ever since i commented on this thread, my karma dropped from 8.6 to 6.3 and about 25,000 points. what's with that? i never rate people 1's and never down-rate photos. can a mod please delete my participation in this thread?
Dec 5 2011 11:03AM
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Dustin.
Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704
Keep in mind that not everyone thinks your pics are gold. Ya most of your pics are sweet and those sequences are well done, but I still see one or two sequences of an ugly pencil 7 and some crappy front flips that plenty of people will hate simply because of the skiing.

Other than that, ya it happens but I think it's just part of the game. The best pictures will still win even with the downgrading.
Dec 5 2011 11:26AM
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JStrathern
Posts: 8747 - Karma: 1,536
Just happened to me too.. by NO means is this any type of great picture or photography, it is just a snapshot of me standing at sunday river. But it had an 8 something out of 6 or 7 ratings, and now it had 9 ratings and has a 5.22, which clearly means multiple people rated it a one. Not that it's a great picture by any means, but no picture really deserves a 1 unless it is an out of focus cell phone snapshot in the wrong category.
Dec 5 2011 12:28PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
We figured it out.

winter.is.a.life
LasagnaDog
Skitheg
Charlieski
Quebecskierz
CanadianSkierz
ThreadSkier

These were all accounts tied to the same IP address, and voting down media. We have banned all the accounts and laid down an IP ban. Whoever you are, you are no longer welcome here.

As well, we will nuke all ratings these names have ever contributed to our system.

For everyone else, please note we are not fucking around with this. Downvoting media will NOT be tolerated around here, and all bans for this will be tied to your IP address so you will not be able to visit the site anymore.




Dec 5 2011 12:58PM
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LivingColour
Posts: 1134 - Karma: 21
why would someone do that?...like he made 7 accounts to down-rate pictures
Dec 5 2011 12:59PM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
I totally know that not everyone will like my pictures !!!
I just started this thread because I saw my picture that was getting straight 10's (I don't understand how it got so many 10's, maybe just the fact that it i s a girl doing a 7, who knows) to straight 1's and I was not the only pic in that situation !!!
And meanwhile 5 pictures from one user where always staying in front of all the other pics !!!

I know this is part of the game, and that this kind of stuff will continue to happen, but I think that there is a way to reduce it so the rating can be more accurate !!

And I'm not pretty sure that the best pic always win, it is really easy for a group of 3-4 friends to down rate quite a bunch a picture so they can get picture of the day because in a day, the average number of ratings for a pic is around 20 !!!
Dec 5 2011 1:01PM
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JStrathern
Posts: 8747 - Karma: 1,536
Great riddance
Dec 5 2011 1:12PM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
Hey Mr.Bishop,
Thanks a lot for what you did, I'm sure that i'm not the only one that deserves to thank you !!!

I was pretty sure that LasagnaDog was in there for something, all his pictures where always better than all the other ones !!!
Dec 5 2011 1:22PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
You're very right to report this. The last thing that we want is people gaming the system. Newschoolers will be a better website if we can create an ecosystem of fair ratings of content.

People are going to dislike certain content that we like that is for sure, and criticism will be part of the game.

However, using aliases to simply downrate and boost one's own content is totally unacceptable. I encourage anyone who notices this happening to let myself or the rest of the staff know.

It is VERY easy to detect. So don't think you're being tricky and will be able to get away with it. We can find it, and we will. We're very much looking right now and will prosecute ruthlessly when we find it.

We'll also put a focus on building the systems in a way that doesn't allow for this. Its not that hard to do.


Dec 5 2011 2:06PM
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eheath
Posts: 61594 - Karma: 122,979
I think you mean good...
Dec 5 2011 2:09PM
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JStrathern
Posts: 8747 - Karma: 1,536
No it was great. That kid was annoying as fuck.
Dec 5 2011 2:41PM
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Mr_pretzel
Posts: 4616 - Karma: 1,289
So im not aloud to rate something 1 if i dont like it?
Dec 5 2011 4:19PM
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JHendrix
Posts: 1493 - Karma: 48
...do you think before you post?
Dec 5 2011 4:20PM
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Mr_pretzel
Posts: 4616 - Karma: 1,289
never.
Dec 5 2011 4:29PM
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JHendrix
Posts: 1493 - Karma: 48
...hmm I like that +1
Dec 5 2011 4:33PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
Of course you are. You can rate something that you dislike low - that is different from downvoting.

Perfect example is the photos that were in question on this issue.

The sequences that Joris put up were decently well put together. If you absolutely HATED the content of the photo, sure you could argue that it deserved a 3 or 4... but a 1 would be reserved for something that has absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever. Anyone being rational would agree with this.

Now that is only the philosophical side of it. From the back-end code side of things, we have the ability to look at patterns and specific criteria in voting. We will never release our method for calculating this, but we can use a number of factors and very easily see cheat voting.

That is the key. When you look at the data it blatantly obviously stands out. People who just don't like the content or have a different opinion follow a certain pattern. You can only create the dramatic down voting effect by engaging in cheat voting. If you're a rational person and you're rating fairly, it fits with others' normal rating habits.


Dec 5 2011 4:34PM
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.frenchy
Posts: 18221 - Karma: 12,321
Mr. Bishop is the man.. holy smokes.
Dec 5 2011 5:06PM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
I'd even say that he is the MAN !!!!
Dec 5 2011 5:12PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
holy fucking irony
Dec 5 2011 6:11PM
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Downtofilm
Posts: 6896 - Karma: 20,395
Its kind of something I have just learned to deal with, it kind of sucks but eh, there's nothing we can do about it besides ban them.

You definitely have some killer photos man I have been looking through all of them and they all look super good.

As for the rating system, I think it is flawed in a way. When I go rate something its either a 10 or nothing, I never actually rate 1 unless its titled "ZOMG tam wallnuts triple" and its some snowboarder falling on a 180.

I think the thumbs up thumbs down would be a great idea to consider for the future, and a list that you can pop out to see who has rated your thumbs up/down your video.

Thats my 0.2 on this situation.
Dec 5 2011 6:14PM
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JHendrix
Posts: 1493 - Karma: 48
wow bro don't take that kinda language with me
Dec 5 2011 6:24PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13082 - Karma: 18,719
Cant you just use a statistical program to detect anomalies in the rating system and only release the voting score after a certain amounts or ratings are posted? The program will find the mean and use standard deviation to weed out downrating. Then use a program is identify the IP to track alias,

There sould be a check in the video section too
Dec 5 2011 8:12PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
We have been adding all kinds of scripts everywhere to address these types of things.

Is it bad in the video section too? If someone could give me an example of a video which they felt got downrated I will check into who did it.

As for the thumbs up / thumbs down thing... I will do some test analysis on it. I'm not entirely convinced it would solve our problems... and to change the entire system and figure out how to normalize all the historical ratings would be a PITA. We use the media ratings for a lot of calculations - especially in Karma.

This is a way easier problem to fix than you'd think. We've done it in a few places, but since we don't announce or publicize our systems (so people can't game them) nobody notices when it goes away.




Dec 5 2011 8:28PM
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soulskier
Posts: 17806 - Karma: 3,841
my suggestion if you were to move to the thumbs up/thumbs down would be every rating below 5 on a picture would be a down, above 5 would be an up

still sounds like a pain in the ass
Dec 5 2011 9:04PM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,896
Click for larger image

Eat what you kill Doug! :-)
Dec 5 2011 9:12PM
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k-fred
Posts: 5363 - Karma: 1,598
gratz, your pic still managed to be the pic of the day haha
Dec 6 2011 8:10AM
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Greenfield*
Posts: 467 - Karma: 31
id 10/10 your pictures any-day if i don't like a picture i don't even waste my time doing 1/10
Dec 6 2011 9:47AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
Thanks, man. I don't really know why it was chosen pic of the day, it doesn't have that good of a rating. But I'm not gonna complain !!!
Dec 6 2011 10:21AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
Thanks man, really appreciate it. I don't think I ever rated something a 1 !!!
Dec 6 2011 10:25AM
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Benji.
Posts: 1146 - Karma: 88
Does the skier in your recent sequence eat it HARD on the knuckle???

Anyways, sick sequence.

One of my favorite things to do w/ photoshop given the right picture.

10/10
Dec 6 2011 10:53AM
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joris.blanc
Posts: 914 - Karma: 6,584
Yes she eat's it hard, but she's made of steel so she was fine after that !!!

And this is the only reason why I use Photoshop !!!

Thanks man !!!
Dec 6 2011 12:13PM
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JTK
Posts: 1695 - Karma: 73
i gave it a star...

but seriously though do not try to see the world though some sort of ns star coloured lens.
Dec 6 2011 1:03PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
Elaborate on "NS star coloured lens."


Dec 6 2011 2:31PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
Ya all my edits fall victim to the fact there is a group of kids who are not all too fond and whenever I post an edit I usually see it start off as 2 of 6 ratings or something like that and then it will slowly climb to an average of about 7 ish.
Dec 6 2011 2:34PM
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JTK
Posts: 1695 - Karma: 73
it's just an expression, a bit cynical lol in fairness no disrespect to the kid.
Dec 6 2011 4:04PM
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[evan]
Posts: 5628 - Karma: 117
What about up-voting your own content?

Is there any prevention towards somebody making10 accounts, then rating one of their pics a 10 on every account? It's probably not as common, but there needs to be a way to check through that to.
Dec 6 2011 4:20PM
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