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Governer Walker Gets a Surprise Protest

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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
Nov 5 2011 12:15AM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
Your right. Teaching is super easy. Thats why so many people do it. Nothing is easier than teaching ever increasingly large classes full of incredibly diverse students, these days often with little to no help for those who are learning disabled. Im so sick of conservatives like you preaching about how easy teaching is, when none of you have the guts to do it. Jesus, I dare half of you idiots to spend a week in a classroom and see what its actually like before you act like its some vacation.
Nov 7 2011 8:15PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
You're.


You've got me so angry I cant even type properly.
Nov 7 2011 8:16PM
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Snowgoner
Posts: 5047 - Karma: 964
lol teaching is an incredibly easy job compared to many equally paying jobs
Nov 7 2011 8:27PM
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jblaski
Posts: 5566 - Karma: 1,078
The thing of it is, every one of these teachers know exactly what they were getting into when they went to college to become a teacher. If they didn't like the working conditions of what is involved in being a teacher, then why the hell would they go to college for it?

That'd be like me getting out of college for firefighting, and then complaining that it was too dangerous, and demand higher pay because the job is really hard.

If you look at it, I should be making 10x more money than ANY teacher, as I may have to put myself in a life or death situation at any given moment.
Nov 7 2011 8:31PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
Because its the right thing to do? Believe it or not, there are other aspects to life besides money. I want to make a difference. That doesn't mean I can't push for teachers to get the respect they deserve.
Nov 7 2011 8:33PM
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thelizards
Posts: 4042 - Karma: 43
thats why teachers should have better pay/benefits, then more smart people would actually want to become teachers instead of getting some other well paying job
Nov 7 2011 8:45PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
bullet proof logic. Personally, I think that working conditions should have remained the same since the 19th century, because, well, they knew what they where getting into, so, they were basically just big time complainers@!

Also, like whats with wanting higher wages? I mean, when i got hired 20 years ago and my wage stayed static, while inflation increased, i knew what to expect when I was hired, and as a man of honor, I just accepted that. People just need to learn to stick with the status quo, not challenge anything, and shut the fuck up... your making to much noise... i dont like it.
Nov 7 2011 8:52PM
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Abc567def
Posts: 8756 - Karma: 801
When you see a child crying and bawling his eyes out on the ground while being so passionate the words coming out of his mouth are nothing but noises you cannot reconcile the situation. He could be hungry, tired, bumped his knee or shit himself. Passion is not the only thing needed to get things changed and get this baby out of his shitty diaper even if it has the world staring at the crying baby.
Nov 7 2011 10:33PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
You know, usually you make very intelligent posts that I disagree with more often than not. I still try to take them into account because you make good points. This post however, made me wonder why I ever took your opinion seriously.
Nov 8 2011 2:58AM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,896
That's a great point.

When I was working in finance I was allowed to take the Series 7 (Broker's License) exam. I was fortunate that my company paid for me to take a class, but I didn't get any time off to study for it. I studied for it on my own time.

With 3 months off for summer vacation, there is really no excuse for why teachers can't learn new techniques and technologies over the summer, and be ready to utilize them once the school year begins. What other occupation gives you 3 months off?

And to el_chupacabra, to answer your question, we live in Denver and have experience with DPS. I know that Jeffco is bad too. Cherry Creek and Littleton have been better, but they are starting to move in the same direction that DPS and Jeffco have.

For those who are defending teacher's unions, please explain why teachers in Denver and the union are opposed to "innovative status". Schools can claim innovative status which allows them more flexibility in staffing and fund raising. Instead of having to share speech therapists, OT's and PT's with other schools, innovative status allows schools to bypass DPS Special Education and hire their own therapists and specialists. They are able to have more services provided on site for more ours during the week. It also allows for flex time and other staffing solutions.
Nov 8 2011 12:39PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
Very few teachers actually have those 3 months "off". Most use that time to tutor, teach summer school or alternate classes. Since they get paid so little, you need the extra income of some sort of summer job. Hell I know a lot of teachers that have a second job year round. /anecdote.
Nov 8 2011 3:23PM
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.fack.le.popo.
Posts: 108 - Karma: 23
a bunch of fucking homeless people on a quest for attention and free money
Nov 8 2011 5:15PM
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CluckaChuck
Posts: 1541 - Karma: 734
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Nov 8 2011 8:23PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
Bullshit if a teacher can't live on these kinds of salaries and benefits they need to take a personal finance management class.  I was meaning to find this article earlier but here you go
Spark notes
Average Teachers salary in Milwaukee Public Schools
$56,500
Average Benefits
$43,505
Total Combined Salary and Benefits
$100,005
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html
That is the reason why Scott Walker stripped the Collective Bargaining Rights.  Most federal employees do not have collective bargaining for benefits and pay so why should Wisconsin Teachers?

As stated in the article MPS teachers have 2 pensions.  So not only do they contribute less into their pensions and health care than the private sector, they get 2 pensions while my mother who works in the private sector does not even have one.  Who should be the one's upset here?

Nov 8 2011 9:01PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
I never said it was super easy, but going off how most of my professors taught their class they teach the same curriculum year in and year out.  My Calculus professor in college used the same 4 tests in rotation and just changed the numbers.  With the implementation of scan-tron, how much work is really put in here?  You put the test into a machine and with the exception of coming up with an answer key which is required scan-tron or not, the machine does it for you.  I know every class/grade level doesn't use scan-tron tests but once teachers get a curriculum established it seems like a pretty easy job to me.


Nov 8 2011 9:12PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
College professors =/= to elementary or high school teachers.

Standards/curriculum for most subjects changes every 3-5 years. Good teachers (granted this isn't all of them) are constantly implementing new strategies. Not to mention the differentiation necessary in k-12 school that isn't really necessary in college.
Nov 8 2011 9:19PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
I realize that, I was merely providing you with an example of how one of my professors taught his class.   No job is easy, but compared to many jobs out there teaching is a lot easier. 

 I don't have a problem with teachers or their career.  What I do have a problem with is when they start bitching when their collective bargaining rights are stripped.  That was a privilege not a right there is a difference.  Unions are just too powerful and inefficient, and the savings statewide in Walker's Budget Reform prove that.
Nov 8 2011 9:42PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
I understand that there were budget issues, but I'm interested to see the repercussions in terms of what this does to Wisconsin teachers. It would surprise me to see an exodus of the highly qualified teachers to states where they feel more appreciated, which could be pretty harmful to students in Wisc.
Nov 8 2011 10:23PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
I really don't feel that many teachers are going to leave.  In my local school district, when 1 teaching position opened up there were over 1,000 applicants for that position so a shortage of quality teachers due to exodus is not a problem I see happening.  I really don't see why they are so upset, they are paying a fraction of what the private sector pays, they have better benefits and pensions and are able to retire at 55 with full benefits.  $100,000 worth of salary+benefits for 9 months of work is not something to protest about
Nov 8 2011 11:17PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
what I forgot to mention earlier was that the only ones who are going to report the success of Walker's budget reform are the conservative groups such as these.  The liberal media in Wisconsin wants to see Walker get recalled so they are not going to report on the success he is having. 

Nov 9 2011 2:57PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
And conservative groups wont report on the failures. Fail either way. Im sure you could find a less partisan source than a group funded by one of the main contributors to Walkers coffers though.
Nov 9 2011 5:39PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
But can voucher schools work on a large scale? Im not saying they will or won't, its something i wonder myself. The results have definitely been successful, I just don't see it as the end all be all solution to our education problem.
Nov 9 2011 6:19PM
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Snowgoner
Posts: 5047 - Karma: 964
if this is true, then why didnt they chose a different profession? as jbalski said, they knew exactly what they were getting into..
Nov 9 2011 6:25PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
And the response is the same. Because its the right thing to do, and money isn't everything. Saying people shouldn't teach just because they dont want to change teacher conditions/feel teachers are under-appreciated is a terrible argument.
Nov 9 2011 6:27PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
Is that even a question? Somebody has to teach the children, and I applaud those people who choose a life of less income in order to benefit society.
Nov 9 2011 6:28PM
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jblaski
Posts: 5566 - Karma: 1,078
OK, then why did all these teachers FAKE call in sick to work, just to go protest in Madison? If they're really teaching because of "the children" why couldn't go on the weekends? If they're not in it for the money, why are they complaining that they have to pay a little more for their already incredible benefits package? They certainly aren't going broke. As was said before, between salary and benefits, teachers are making $80K+ a year.
Nov 9 2011 6:40PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
Its called a strike or a lockout. Again, just because you are doing it regardless doesn't mean you cant fight for what you think is right. By your logic no one should ever protest anything, they should just continue the status quo.
Nov 9 2011 6:43PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
walkout. NBA on the mind hahaha.
Nov 9 2011 6:50PM
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jblaski
Posts: 5566 - Karma: 1,078
Number 1, it's illegal for teachers to strike in Wisconsin, which is why they choose a sleezy underhanded way way to skip out on their jobs.

Number 2, there's a HUGE difference between protesting because of poor working conditions or unfair job practices, and protesting because you're greedy, and expect to get a big raise, huge benefits package with zero co-pay, and 100% pension.
Nov 9 2011 6:53PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
LOL, you're using it being illegal for teachers to strike as an excuse for them not to stand up for their rights???


They're protesting for more pay because they believe they don't make enough money to support themselves. Most teachers are not greedy. If they were, they would have chosen a different profession.
Nov 9 2011 7:10PM
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RICK_ROSS
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that was awesome. i am monitoring this thread
Nov 9 2011 7:31PM
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Abu_Hajaar
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.
Nov 9 2011 7:59PM
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Wis_Skier_23
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did you not read my post above? A teachers in Milwaukee Public School makes on average the following. If you can't support yourself on those funds you are just greedy or need to take a personal finance management class.  I went to private school earlier in my education and my teachers made around 35,000 with higher health care costs, and no pension.  They make way less but accept that fact and chose to teach because they love teaching and making a difference.  You don't see them protesting in the streets of Madison pushing for state funding for private schools do you?

Average Teachers salary in Milwaukee Public Schools
$56,500
Average Benefits
$43,505
Total Combined Salary and Benefits
$100,005
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html
 
They are not short on cash by any means so that whole we don't get paid enough holds NO weight.  That is for 9 months of "required" work, what you do with the rest of your time is your choice.   ^And quoting a post earlier if the teachers really cared about doing the right thing and "cared about the children" then they wouldn't be protesting at the capitol taking "Sick days", end of story. 
Nov 10 2011 8:31AM
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*Dos*Planker*
Posts: 2983 - Karma: 168
.
Nov 10 2011 10:13AM
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ORDEAL
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Nov 10 2011 10:28AM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
So you feel that teachers are overpaid. Interesting. The conservative undervalue of education is astounding to me. No wonder you all want those "average joe" candidates, it means you can continue to act like teaching is overvalued and unimportant.
Nov 10 2011 1:28PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
the best teachers I have ever had were at my private school where they made 1/3 what public school teachers do, and sure they would gladly take higher pay/benefits, who wouldn't? But they chose to teach for lower wages in the private school because they want to teach their religious beliefs to others, and are making a difference in children's lives.  He taught AP Statistics and he has only had like 2 or 3 students in his career of teaching that class not pass the AP test.  If there was a poll of students who graduated for who was the best teacher, it is no doubt he would win unanimously, I could list his numerous awards but thats not the point.   The point is why can't public school teachers learn a lesson from the private school teachers and be thankful for what you have instead of demanding higher pay all the time, that is what I absolutely Despise.   And they knew what they were getting into the entire time same with public school teachers, so there's no excuse.  If you got into teaching to make tons of money you have chosen the wrong profession.

And referring to teachers being overpaid, I work at a country club, (one of the nicest in the area the Legend at Brandybrook, look it up if you want to) and there is a local teacher there who is a Platinum member at the club.  To be a Platinum member you have to pay a $85,000 fee to join.  Mind you he also drives his new Mercedes E550 Coupe $60,000+ and his wife drives the new Cadillac Escalade Hybrid MSRP starting at $73,000.  None of that sounds excessive for a teacher?  Shit while I am on a roll the football coach/Athletic Director/weight lifting teacher of my local public school Kettle Moraine,  made over 100k in salary and 40k in benefits.  I would drop out of school right now if I could coach football, set up athletic events, and teach weight lifting to high school students for that kind of pay. If you don't believe me look it up.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0110/80221166/DataMine-Search-Wisconsin-teacher-salaries

Name: Michael Fink
Position: Teacher
School/District: Kettle Moraine
County Name: Waukesha
Nov 10 2011 2:55PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
You know what? Those numbers mean nothing to me because I have no problem with giving teachers a higher payrate. They deserve to be paid more than any Bank's CEO in my opinion and both have been paid for by our taxes.
Nov 10 2011 2:55PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. And again, the logic that (you should always be happy with what you have) makes no sense. Just because you do something doesnt mean you cant push to be better compensated.


By your logic, you had better stop pushing for lower taxes because hey, you should just be happy with what you have.
Nov 10 2011 4:12PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
the banks we bailed out have paid back + interest way back in March. also, that was federal money. most public schools are funded by state governments.
Nov 10 2011 4:16PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html
Nov 10 2011 4:19PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
either way it's our taxes paying for it.

http://news.yahoo.com/fannie-mae-loss-widens-asks-taxpayers-7-8b-221752510.html

who did they pay it back to anyways? not the people... they paid back themselves. the CEOs of these banks had record profits off of the citizens paying for their "bailouts". corporations like Bank of America haven't even paid their taxes for years.


teachers ask for more money (which they deserve) and pay the people back with education. banks ask for more money and pay us back by asking for even more bailout money to fill their pockets.
Nov 10 2011 5:54PM
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el_chupacabra
Posts: 639 - Karma: 14
As someone who seems so well versed in economics you should be aware of the issue of causation vs. correlation. A HUGE reason japan scores so high on a number of academic subjects has nothing to do with funding but with culture. There is a completely different mindset in most asian countries from the standpoint of family pressure and emphasis on success in academics. Being in a university now with a huge asian demographic, the cultural difference is blatant. Not to mention the type of technology and corporations located right in Japan help those students train for entirely different goals.

I don't see a cultural change happening in the states and I think it would be a much more difficult problem to address. The issue is that parents in the states want better education while putting all the blame on educators rather than themselves. Anyone knowledgeable about educational theory can tell you what an exponential difference a supportive household is in the academic success of a child. BUT, since that problem is not easily fixed, you have to look at restructuring the education system as it stands now.

You talk about how you want to go to a privatized voucher system. First of all, another reason this works better in other countries and not the U.S. is because of geographic size and the lack of public transportation in the states. Places like Japan have good public transportation that most children are very adept at using. In the states, an overwhelming majority of students rely on bus transportation. The reason there is such a socioeconomic difference between the students going to private schools and the kids going to public schools now is that poor kids have two working parents, and they sure as hell don't have the ability to transport their kid halfway across town every morning to get them to a private school. Wealthier families where one of the parents doesn't work, the possibility of sending their child to a private school becomes much more apparent. "Competing schools" sounds good in theory, but as with all forms of purely free markets, there are a TON of unintended consequences and issues you're not aware, mostly because you're looking at it from a purely economic standpoint.
Nov 10 2011 9:55PM
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Wis_Skier_23
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 245
I already gave you the facts by numbers earlier. 

 And you can be happy with what you have and still pursue better pay and you can do that by VOTING.  There is no reason teachers need to be taking "sick" days to go protest at the capitol because they are contributing 2,900$ a year to benefits they recieve.  This is a fraction of what the private sector pays and is a very poor reflection on teachers.  There is no incentive for teachers to go above and beyond because they are paid the same regardless.  People act on incentives and if you want our education system to turn around you would fire the bad teachers, which will never happen because of the unions. Simply throwing more money at the system never works, the system is what got us to this point, not underpaying teachers.


Nov 12 2011 12:07PM
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